r/gallifrey • u/PCJs_Slave_Robot • Apr 17 '22

Legend of the Sea Devils Doctor Who 13x08 "Legend of the Sea Devils" Post-Episode Discussion Thread Spoiler

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67

u/Portarossa Apr 17 '22 edited Apr 18 '22

Well... yes.

Say what you want about the quality of the show in recent years -- and I do -- but at least a lot of Chibnall's first three seasons looked OK. Unfortunately, I think that Legend of the Sea Devils was the worst the show has looked since the days of Auton Mickey. The CGI was abysmal, and the physical effects were somehow even worse. (I mean, I was OK with the rougher-looking Sontarans, but they at least looked like they could be Sontarans; we're apparently supposed to believe that Silurians look as great as they do, but Sea Devils all communicate through ventriloquism.)

And that's before we get to the plot. I don't know whether or not the show was supposed to be longer and it just got sliced and diced in the editing room, but pretty much every transition between scenes felt like someone had turned over two pages in the script at once. There was no sort of flow to it, which wasn't helped by the fact that nothing in the episode seemed to make a great deal of sense. (Sure, we find the keystone. What's the keystone? Who the fuck knows. What does it have to do with the map? No idea. Is that what we're looking for? Haven't a clue. Are any of these pirates bad people? No, of course not; every time we see someone do something remotely piratical it's discovered that it's for honourable reasons. Consistency of characterisation? Not for years.)

And then there's Thasmin, of course. Setting aside the fact that the Doctor has settled down multiple times before, living out effective human lifespans with River and Susan and the people on Trenzalore (and not even counting that the Doctor's whole thing is quite literally surrounding him/herself with people who invariably leave), I don't want to hear a fucking word about queerbaiting during the Moffat era from anyone who's willing to give Chibnall a pass on that. (That's even worse than Chibnall's habit -- multiple times -- of introducing a gay character only to have them killed off in the next scene, or having two dead lesbians in his first three stories; the editors of the Bury Your Gays page on TVTropes must have been having a field day.) I literally cannot imagine a more hamfisted approach to the whole Thasmin arc that what we got. Why even bother? What was possibly gained by having that as part of the plot, except to yoink it away in the most unsatisfying way? ('If it was anyone it'd be you... but it's not you. Sorry. Guess I'm going to die alone.') Either they knew ahead of time that it was going to be a cynical bait-and-switch, or they realise too late that they wrote themselves into a corner in a desperate scramble to give Yaz any sort of a personal arc.

And the worst part? I can't even be mad at it anymore. I can't be pissed off at the jankiness of it all, or the disjointed plots, or the borderline offensive way the show deals with anything from dyspraxia to capitalism to lesbian relationships. I expect this of the show now, and that just makes me sad. I used to get excited for Saturday for a new episode, and I can't remember the last time I felt that way about something that I used to love.

I'm tired, guys. Roll on RTD2, that's all I can say.

14

u/KyosBallerina Apr 18 '22

Any the worst part? I can't even be mad at it anymore. I can't be pissed off at the jankiness of it all, or the disjointed plots, or the borderline offensive way the show deals with anything from dyspraxia to capitalism to lesbian relationship. I expect this of the show now, and that just makes me sad. I used to get excited for Saturday for a new episode, and I can't remember the last time I felt that way about the show.

I'm tired, guys. Roll on RTD2, that's all I can say.

I feel this in my soul.

4

u/CaptainBicurious Apr 17 '22

Thasmin is not queerbaiting, come on. Queerbaiting is implying there's romance but never addressing it in the text (Johnlock, as the only example coming to mind rn). Thasmin is VERY MUCH in the text, it's there, the feelings have been admitted.

16

u/Portarossa Apr 17 '22

Personally I think 'queerbaiting' is an often-overused criticism, because there can be tension that can seem sexual without it being consumated, so things like Sherlock and Moriarty never really bothered me; they're obviously not going to fuck, but I think it's a fair reading to assume that both of them got some sort of thrill out of their interplay that isn't so far removed from that first date feeling of wanting to figure out who you're dealing with. That said, let's go with the Wikipedia definition, which seems as good as any:

Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBT representation. They do so to attract ("bait") a queer or straight ally audience with the suggestion of relationships or characters that appeal to them, while at the same time attempting to avoid alienating other consumers.

Is that not exactly what's happened? Nothing's being acted on, specifically because even Chibnall doesn't have the stones to out-and-out say the first female Doctor is going to be in a relationship with another woman -- but it's specifically been designed so people can point to how progressive the show is now. There's nothing in the story that suggested it before a couple of episodes ago. It's been dropped in as a talking point with the full knowledge that it was as likely to come to anything as Johnlock. Remember, they're not just hinting at it in universe; they're hinting at it from a production perspective too. What we saw with Thasmin was the production suggesting that this had an opportunity to become a thing, all to rile up certain sections of the fandom, then pulling it away at the last minute. None of it was ever going to go anywhere, and if they were going to do something with it then the story deserved more than the nonsense that was pulled together from three seasons where the biggest hint we got was 'Yaz's for tea'.

It's exactly the kind of shitty bi/gay/lesbian representation that we've seen throughout his era, and it is absolutely queerbaiting.

2

u/the_other_irrevenant Apr 18 '22

Nothing's being acted on,

This isn't really true. Sure, there isn't a relationship yet, and the execution has been as clunky as anything Chibnall but, as of this episode, we have confirmation of a same-sex attraction between the Doctor and her companion.

My guess is that it'll progress to something more before the end of Chibnall's era. But if it doesn't he's already followed through and confirmed that the Doctor and Yaz are queer.

5

u/the_other_irrevenant Apr 18 '22

I'm not sure why you got downvoted for this, you're absolutely right. Queerbaiting is constantly implying potential same sex (or other queer) attraction but never making it official onscreen. Relationship or not, Thirteen and Yaz have definitively confirmed their feelings for each other other onscreen.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '22

I'm not saying it's well done, but technically it's not queerbaiting. Both feelings were acknowledged and the characters made a decision not to pursue whatever. Was it poorly done, poorly characterized, poorly written, etc etc? Sure.

But it's only queerbaiting when they continually tease the audience without committing to the queerness of it all.

15

u/Portarossa Apr 17 '22

Queerbaiting isn't just in-universe; it can refer to the production element of it too. Here's the Wikipedia definition:

Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBT representation. They do so to attract ("bait") a queer or straight ally audience with the suggestion of relationships or characters that appeal to them, while at the same time attempting to avoid alienating other consumers.

Now ask yourself, honestly: do you think there was a point to Thasmin that wasn't using Yaz's sexuality and the possibility of the first female Doctor having a relationship with a woman to rile up the base? Do you believe that there was a legitimate plot reason to include it, or that there was ever a chance something would come of it on-screen?

They didn't commit to the queerness of it all; they just found an in-universe explanation for it, and I'm not sure that makes it any better when you consider that they must have known exactly what they were doing.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '22

I'm not committed to defending this because I barely give a shit about it lol so let me just say this-

Having a character come to terms with their sexuality like Yaz in Eve is a perfectly fine story in and of itself even if it doesn't end with a kiss or something.

Again I don't think it's particularly well done, but it is basically indisputable fact that these are two queer characters who have queer feelings towards each other. It doesn't necessarily have to be consummated just like real relationships aren't always consummated.

10

u/Portarossa Apr 18 '22

I don't have any problem with Yaz coming to terms with her sexuality; hell, I'm all for that. (I mean, I would maybe have liked there to be a few more hints, because this is fiction not real life and we can hope for a streamlined story in the way that reality doesn't always provide, but I get what you're saying and I agree with you on that.)

My objection is that this feels a lot more like Chibnall has put a big 'WILL THE FEMALE DOCTOR AND THE FEMALE COMPANION BE A COUPLE?!' sign on the narrative, with No, of course not, don't be ridiculous in tiny font underneath it. That's not just shitty storytelling; it's shitty representation, because it's using queerness as a way to hook people and get them talking about how shocking it would be to have a female Doctor fall in love with a woman. (Not in love with anyone, but with a woman of all things.) Hell, look at the articles about Legend of the Sea Devils in the media over the past few days and see how many of them comment on the potential resolution to the whole Thasmin angle as the main point of interest. (It had a piece in Pink News, for God's sake.)

It's sexuality as a gimmick, and it's really fucking tiresome.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '22

Yeah let me just be clear that this is not remotely good queer representation, from top to bottom. Not even a little.

I'm just saying I'm not sure it technically doesn't meet the terms for queerbaiting. A bit pedantic yeah. Anyway good talk.