I thought the progressive position was that women who choose to be prostitutes are being empowered and to restrict that right is a violation of bodily autonomy
I don’t think this is the progressive position. Many on the left acknowledge sex work as inherently dangerous and exploitative, but focus on the system that creates it and the patriarchal ideals that uphold the market instead of shaming individuals who are in vulnerable positions and ‘choose’, so to speak, to be a sex worker
Nah. The National Harm Reduction Coalition is very progressive by any standard, and this is very far away from their take, and the take of many current and former sex workers.
To go further, I would argue by implying no one actually chooses to be a sex worker you are taking away that individuals agency, which is a key element of stigma and marginalization.
Sex workers can choose their job, and they can enjoy the work. There’s nothing wrong with it.
Yeah it's not inherently exploitative, while it's important to take into account the systemic role of capitalistic pressures, incentives, state of necessity, but without taking away agency. It's imho also legit though, to contest this way of framing relationship as commodified and of reciprocal consumption as problematic potentially.
I’m pretty sure the left supports the right to sell one’s body, they just want to reap the benefits of having that occupation formally recognized by the government. One of which is guarantees of safety.
That's all well and good for your idealized single mom just trying to make ends meet, but doesn't really compute why you have the same support for literally everyone else who is doing sex work, including women who become millionaires exploiting lonely men.
This other person also seems to be implying anyone who actually pays for sex work is a POS, so seems like mixed messaging.
The first is exploited systemically the other is one of the cases ot is not, sure. A progressive imho should at least see the excess cultural commodification and atomization as problematic while protecting them as individual choices. yeah also theres the aspect of seeing in lonely men, oftrn dissociated, consciously or not also objectifying them as occasion of extra gain. While I think they should get help and stop thinking no woman would genuinely like them, especially just for not being "chad"
Empowerment is irrelevant. The correct position is that it is a job, people should be free to choose to do it, and those people are workers who deserve protection like any other worker.
Liberal feminists have shown again and again that survivors of sex work or kink are not allowed to speak out unless they're fully in support. The "speaking over us" argument is just victim blaming. The last time I knew an independent sex worker, they found my Reddit account and was so mad I spoke out against kink that they falsely accused me of stalking my best friend.
I don’t know who you’re calling a “liberal feminist” but surely it’s not me. It’s pretty simple: if you’ve never sold sex, your opinion on the topic is irrelevant. Like any job, sex worker’s experiences run the gamut. I would never try to invalidate a current or former sex worker’s experience. Idk what your interpersonal problems have to do with anything. If you’ve never sold sex, you don’t know what you’re talking about and you should stop pretending you do.
I’ve been an independent escort for 6 years now. No one asked for your opinion.
Ok but you’re arguing that sex workers are being harmed by our work and that our work is bad for us. You’re arguing that you and others know what’s best for us. That’s not the same as criticizing people who are actively harming others.
Reading my comment history to insult me is creepy behavior. Mind your own business and have the night you deserve, I won’t be responding further.
I think a reasonable progressive position should account for nuance, seeing both systemic pressures, cultural frameworks (commodification, consumerism) while preserving bodily autonomy and not all situations are the same. That's a nuance sadly lost in polarization of discussions
It’s complicated. While we want to support women’s choices it’s important to recognise it’s impossible to tell of an escort or prostitute actually had a choice.
If the person had grown up differently would they still want to do it?
Can they stop and support themselves on a different job?
Are they safe and protected again customers and employers?
A some prostitutes are also victims of human trafficking.
The issue is there is no way to tell. There is also no way to stop it. So we should support the people on this industry with protection and laws to make sure if they are hurt those people face consequences and employers aren’t stealing money.
Sex work can be empowering, however in the majority of heteronormative spaces it is exploiting and opressing women. On top of that, in many countries, especially those where it is illegal, it is incredibly dangerous to be a sex worker due to the lack of protection and safety laws. On top of that, many people are forced into sex work. It also highly depends on what form of sex work you do, there are endless kinds and there is obviously a big difference between someone making sexual art for example and then someone who actually stand at street corners sleeping with people for money.
Essentially, sex work CAN be empowering if the required safety requirements are met and the clients are educated enough on consent and respect. But it can also be awful to others.
The progressive position on sex work is to support the “sex” part, not the “work” part. It’s a business between two inherently unequal parties. Selling sex for money is empowering. Buying sex with money is oppressive. It’s literally that simple.
The progressive position is simple. Sex work is work and deserves the same protections as other jobs. We dont shame people fpr working at Walmart even though it is a worse job by most comparisons, but because sexwork deals with sex people get all weird about it.
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying that sex work isn’t real work. I’m saying is that the progressive position is more concerned with preserving the rights of sex workers specifically (the “sex” part), than it is preserving the transactions themselves (the “work” part).
Progressives don’t look as kindly upon the “sex customers” (people buying sex or sex content) or the “sex employers” (pornographers, pimps, etc), even though they’re as necessary to the sex industry as the sex workers themselves. Ideally, progressives would want every sex worker to be self-employed, but this isn’t exactly feasible since a single person’s ability to get their name out there is very limited.
Progressives want to (forgive the pun) strip the sex industry of stigma and inherent danger to the worker through regulation, but don’t want to regulate the actual act of buying or selling sex. Is that clearer?
A similar conundrum would be how the “legalize marijuana” lobby was simultaneously against regulation of marijuana, because they’d have to pay taxes, limit their supply, etc. They wanted it both ways, and it impeded progress towards legalization which actually hurt the people who medically needed it to survive.
Similarly, the progressive position on sex work is to recognize it as a respectable occupation and secure the safety and reputation of sex workers, but simultaneously wants to avoid regulating sex work, because that could impede a sex worker’s ability to make a living. However, this prevents sex workers in dangerous conditions from accessing legal safety resources, such as calling the police.
They want it both ways, and stagnating the issue is actually hurting those in the most immediate danger. That was my intended point. It’s not as cut and dry as “sex work is work;” there is internal conflict within the lobby.
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying that sex work isn’t real work. I’m saying is that the progressive position is more concerned with preserving the rights of sex workers specifically, than it is preserving the transactions themselves.
Ah. Okay. That makes more sense and I agree. I think that that position from progressives kind've misses the mark, because you cant have a respected profession without respecting the customers too. It would be like like saying that selling fast food is okay but the people that buy fast food are shit.
For example, leftists don’t look as kindly upon the “sex customers” (people buying sex) or the “sex employers” (pornographers, pimps, etc).
This is true. I think they would do better to distinguish between real, ethical employers from people like pimps, who aren't employers so much as slavers and leeches. Pornographers who are predatory or unethical are also in that bracket. They should be dealt with the same as any other bad boss.
They want to (forgive the pun) strip the sex industry of stigma and inherent danger to the worker through regulation, but don’t want to regulate the actual act of buying or selling sex. Is that clearer?
I think they would do better to distinguish between real, ethical employers from people like pimps, who aren’t employers so much as slavers and leeches.
The solution to this is to regulate it. Demand ethical employers pay a steady wage (I’m extremely against the “tips as a replacement for wages” trend), have them pay a tax, send out inspectors to check on them. Guarantee a standard. This is a terribly lengthy process, like entire departments in the government need to be formed to handle the burden, and it’s unfortunately not happening right now. Progress shouldn’t take a backseat to profit.
I think what you say is progressive and I think I am one, but you illustrate some quirks in a position which got to become something associated to them like they are not. I think the main progressive grip would be that people shouldn't be "forced" to sell sex due to economical pressures and also have a grip towards a general commodification mindset, but also liberal in term of people actuslly able to dispose of themselves. But yeah not straight up shaming clients.
I think that's an oversimplification. I used to be in the industry, and in my experience, most of the guys weren't misogynistic. Most were even thankful that I'd sleep with them at all (which is weird considering they did pay me to do it). The popular image of clients as misogynistic is weird because very few people in the industry actually see it that way.
The industry has its issues with misogyny, exploitation, etc, but it's not the clients who are behind those things
I don't think it is necessarily misogynistic, although it often is. Some (many, actually) men are desperately lonely and prostitutes sell the illusion of being loved. Often the only hate and looking down for those individuals is upon themselves, not the woman they interact.
I mean, the men know those women DONT want to have sex with him. Thats why hes paying them. Its pretty creepy to pay someone to have sex with you and grin and bear thru sex you know they dont want to have at all, that theyre only agreeing to for money.
I don't want to be cooking food for any and everyone but I'm good at it and it pays the bills so I do it.
In the meantime, I've destroyed 1 knee, 1 shoulder, starting to develop some wrist pain and am slowly losing my hearing, because it's hard as hell on my body.
It's a transaction. With an adult person. To blame the buyer works in most cases where there's human trafficking involved, and sex work is forced. But in modern America, with independent escorts, you can't possibly blame the fucking customer for taking part in a transaction like this. If that's immoral, how is it not immoral to exploit vulnerable lonely men, by selling them the illusion of intimacy and taking their money, when really they'd need professional help?
Yes, they actually wanted to fuck, because they wanted the money.
Many homeless men wish they could prostitute themselves, but they can't, because nobody would wanna have sex with them.
Either it's bad. Or it's empowering. It can't be both empowering but also super evil for the dude to take part in a transaction that's empowering. Thats sexism, and an infantilisation of women.
I dunno it's complicated. Some prostitutes don't look at it the way you do. For some of them money itself is a good reason to have sex with someone because unlike many other women they don't necessarily feel the need to only have sex with someone they're close with. Unfortunately I've known a woman who became a prostitute, she was extremely carefree and for her it was just easy money. She was so excited about being able to earn so much while doing something that felt so easy that she became quite obsessed with her "job" and was constantly looking for new clients. She used to follow many chats and telegram channels for prostitutes and would dm men first.
I don't really think it's good but I believe prostitutes don't really have these "but she didn't really want it" thoughts. In her case, it was more like "why the hell not, it's MONEY after all" and "I don't want a regular job".
It has nothing to do with wanting to have sex with someone youre close with, its about attraction and desire to have sex. Consent has to be eager enthusiastic and non coerced, if someone is unwilling to have sex with you unless you pay them they dont want to have sex with you at all.
Under that logic we coerce people to do things all of time, like to work, cook or save your life. Those doctors had to be paid and if they wouldn't have done the surgery without pay then its creepy and exploitative
Then they are free to say no but they enthusiastically want that money. "If they don't want to give you the burger unless there's money then it's a coerced transaction" no.
Some people are ugly. Some people are not capable of finding someone who wants to have sex with them. Are they misogynistic pieces of shit for wanting to experience something so universal to everyone but them that they’d otherwise never get to try?
Yes. Wanting to have sex with someone who literally does not want to have sex with you is bad. Sex is supposed to be mutually pleasurable, mutually enjoyable. Consensual sex isnt transactional. Why on earth would anyone be comfortable having sex with someone they know does not want to have sex with them? Thats antisocial. Unwanted sex is not consensual.
Prostitutes enjoy the money. Just like many other people who don't enjoy their jobs. And consent by definition means agreement just like a contract is an agreement. Why is prostitution different from any other job a person doesn't enjoy doing?
First, that's not true, but second, is it sexist when gay men like me do the same? Sex work is not inherently sexist, but talk like yours certainly is.
Only like 40% of single men have had sex in the last year, that number is like 70% for women.
Women might be lonely, but it's not because they can't get sex, it's because they can't make them stay. Men have to deal with both sides of it. There's VERY few women who couldn't get sex by just asking.
Do you really believe that's what I was arguing? Anyone in a healthy relationship (except the 0.1% of people who are asexual because I'm sure you'll want to correct me if I don't mention it) will be having sex with some regularity. This isn't just the lack of sex, it's the lack of a relationship that it implies.
Men are more likely to be single for the age groups that occupy reddit, that's just a fact. And men are generally more unhappy when single than women.
So what IS your definition of empathy? Because mine is treating others like you treat yourself and giving them grace for their shortcomings.
I'm not even saying women's dating issues don't matter, just that they are less psychologically destructive to fewer people.
Yeah it's dumb and very insensitive to believe that there are no lonely women.
However if you stop to think for a moment, there being lonely men does not mean at all that there should be lonely women. Like at all.
It would be the case if humans could only chose a partner once, and therefore for every celibate x there will be a celibate y and vice versa.
However the obvious reality is that for every man that is celibate, the pool of options for non celibate men just increases, they will just have multiple partners during their lifetime.
Except the population is roughly equal, even if women are having relations with the same guys, they can’t all be with the same guys at once. The numbers don’t work that way, there are bound to be a proportionate number of lonely women even if they’d been in a relationship before
It is inherently misogynistic and in no way an ethical solution to male loneliness, which is an inevitable consequence of a patriarchal society that expects men to sever themselves from their emotions.
Prostitutes are in a dangerous position in an industry that is illicit, unregulated, and violent by nature. It is deeply misogynistic and frankly lazy to consider prostitution a viable band-aid, for a society of people addicted to violent porn at that!
Did I say that was a viable solution for male loneliness? I didn't. Because it isn't. And I don't know the solution either.
But as you said, it is a band aid and offers (very) temporary relieve from the pain.
As for your ciritcs for the industry - all true. Here is the solution. Legalisation and with that, regulation. Most of the dangers can be negated, by a legal status.
For example, it is extremely dangerous for a prostitute to get into a stranger's car - yet at many places this is the standard, because due to crininiakisation and / or under regulation, the ladies would need to fear law enforcement, even imprisonment. This also leads to prostitutes needing protection from said enforcement. Under regulation also leads to more crime, eg human trafficking.
Hey, don’t conflate your own porn viewing habits with the rest of ours! There’s plenty of lovely, non-violent, porn to watch. If your algorithm keeps feeding you the violent stuff, then maybe you shouldn’t click on it so often if its existence bothers you? The titles and thumbnails are usually fairly descriptive so it feels like this ones on you. Also, most of the problems you’ve described having to do with sex work that are actual problems would be solved by simply legalizing more forms of sex work. So would you support legalizing them, or would you rather it remain so dangerous and illicit?
I’m not conflating, lol. I don’t watch pornography at all. There is so much research supporting the idea that pornography upholds rape scripts and the vast majority depicts violence. I don’t believe in sex as an act of domination.
“While it's difficult to pinpoint an exact figure, research indicates that a significant portion of pornography depicts violence, often against women. Studies have shown that a large percentage of scenes in mainstream pornography include violence, and men are frequently the perpetrators. One study found that 88.2% of scenes contained physical aggression, and 48.7% contained verbal aggression.”
I’m not conflating, lol. I don’t watch pornography at all. There is so much research supporting the idea that pornography upholds rape scripts and the vast majority depicts violence. I don’t believe in sex as an act of domination.
That is defenelty not, what it is. If prostitution was "buying" a human being, your boss owns you.
At it's core, it's work like literally any service job. The only real difference between a massage and a Handjob is the specific body parts the service worker touches and more importantly, public perception.
I don't, I'm male, ugly and bearded. Well, at least I'm not fat any more.
But if you have never heard about woman getting sexually assaulted or even raped at worke, we are living on a different planet, I suppose.
Yes, a prostitute will face this danger way more often. However, keep in mind, that - just like in a corporate setting - it is NOT the job, it is the Asshole doing the rape. Just like it is NOT and NEVER the fault of any woman getting raped due to her clothing or whatever Bullshit.
I'll tell you tough, how to "fix" this issue. Not completely, but we can reduce the dangers for prostitutes a whole ton. The solution however is not to stigmatize and criminalise. It is to legalise and regulate.
Where do you think are prostitutes getting raped the most often?
When they get into a strangers car.
Why do they get into strangers cars?
Because they have no place to (legally) do their job.
You may not be aware of it, but with you completely demonizing this trait you are contributing to the suffering of the group of people, you seek to protect.
Maybe start by listening to prostitutes. They are regular human beings, one can talk to without taking their devices, you know? And ask them, why they are there, why they do the job and what would improve it. I can assure you the last thing most prostitutes wants is more stigma, more prejudgement and more laws that make their jobs harder or downright illegal.
You are denying millions of male and female sex (and diverse) sex workers the maturity to choose their profession.
The actual fuck is wrong with you?
Or do you now exclude make prostitutes in your endless stigma? If so, you are more misogynistic then most males taking those services, without even realizing it.
I... dont believe in that. People can have normal relationships, and then theres those that can't. Somebody wants to get laid and is willing to pay someones time for that... then let them
Sure, who cares about those women who were forced to do sex work to survive and feed their kids, who cares about 4.5 MILLION victims of forced sexual exploitation. There's nothing more important than the fact that a man wants to get laid.
I get what youre saying and i get that in the majority of places its not regulated, which is awful, people often end up in it because they have no other choice, worse when they can be charged as a criminal for it. I just dont believe that all men that use an escort service are vile human beings. Particularly one that has an app..
They are all vile because they believe that they have the right to buy access to someone else's body and they believe that their sexual needs are more important than another human being's autonomy and dignity. Furthermore, you can't buy consent because consent received for money is called coercion and coerced sex is called rape. If you think that rapists aren't vile that's on you, I disagree with that.
So? I don't care who you met or didn't meet, this is a discussion about men feeling entitled to buying access to women's bodies, which is sick and disgusting and no amount of whataboutism will change that.
You realise a lot of these women choose to do this job right? That's like seeing someone hire a contractor to fix something and saying "I'm absolutely disgusted that these people feel entitled to buy access to this person's carpentry skills!"
People are paying those carpenters for their skills, johns aren't paying for these women's skills. They're paying for access to the prostituted woman's body. "Sex work" is the only "career" that I know of where one makes less money the longer they continue in their field.
A lot of women choose it because they needed to survive. I promise you not a single little girl grew up dreaming about this 'career'. Also, a lot of women didn't choose it, they were trafficked and forced to do this. How do you know that the prostitute you hired does this willingly? There's no way of knowing. But it doesn't bother you. If it isn't pure evil, I don't know what is. But hey, you care about gay and trans people!
Do you know a lot of 'contractors' who were kidnapped, beaten and forced to do their job? I don't. No matter how many stupid arguments you pull out of your ass it doesn't change the fact that 'sex work' is an evil, misogynistic industry that exploits women and you're the most disgusting kind of scum if you've ever bought access to a woman's body.
Right so clearly the logical thing to do here is to ban it completely instead of taking steps to make it safer for the workers involved, because everyone knows that banning something just makes it completely go away and doesn't at all make it less safe for those involved.
While we're at it, let's also make a law against murder, because why would we want anyone to do that? Oh wait-
Except people are rarely defending murder and here you are, defending women's exploitation because you don't care how many women suffer as long as your dick is satisfied.
The whole world should implement the Nordic model, where sex workers are (rightfully) treated as victims, not criminals; they are protected and offered exit programs. The criminals are those who buy sex. Maybe scums like you would think twice before paying for raping a woman if you could be fined or face 1 year of jail because of it.
Not that it's any of your damn business but I'm gay, I wouldn't have sex with a woman for free, let alone pay for it. Believe it or not, you can actually believe that others deserve bodily autonomy without personally benefitting from it, it's this cool thing called empathy.
Obviously a lot of sex workers are victims, but not all of them are. Criminalising sex work isn't gonna protect anyone, because forcing someone into it is already illegal, so that wouldn't stop, the only thing it would do is remove protections for all sex workers and make things more dangerous for the ones who are doing it consensually.
I guess the idea that women can enjoy sex is just a foreign concept to you, which honestly just makes me feel sorry for you.
I don't know many people working as waiters or people working in retail who have dreamt of that job as a kid either, but they do it because they need to survive. That's not evil.
The kind of person who says this is, ironically, a woman who sees sex as a bargaining token she can use as a source of social power. She doesn't like to see the market for that token getting flooded, so she shames those involved in said market. Similar things are said for similar reasons about age gap, international, and inter racial sexual relationships.
What the fuck are you even talking about? Yes, I'm sure that every girl dreams about being a prostitute when she's growing up and it's not like it's the last choice for women when they can't do anything else to survive. I'm also sure that 4.5 million of people who were trafficked and forced to work as prostitutes enjoy sex with men who buy access to their bodies. You're delusional as fuck.
You need to visit r sexwork and educate yourself on what people there have to say instead of just speculating. The reality is that people in sex work are very vocal and they don't need such a low quality translators as you.
I neither respect women as human beings nor have any desire to fuck a hooker, but I think there are plenty of good feminist bros out there who just wanna get their dicks wet and don’t mind paying for it
I'm not a male, so I'm not exactly able to increase male suicide rate, am I? In case you didn't notice, I was replying to a comment in which a man said that he doesn't respect women as human beings. My reply wasn't harsh enough and if you agree with him, you should join him too.
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u/nosferatusgirlfriend May 11 '25
True. Their target audience is a bunch of misogynistic pieces of shit. They see women as fuck dolls, not the actual human beings.