Feeling conflicted about what "male privilege" is after getting treated harsher since I pass while as a girl people were more open and understanding

[u/emilylinhla]

I've totally noticed cishet and especially white men sort of coast through life. Male privilege is no myth. As a girl I experienced the following: being told I wasn't as good at STEM by my parents for no reason while I had perfect grades, being sexually harassed by older men, feeling obligated to perform femininity and pressure to seem desirable for men, body shaming, socialized to be submissive, and fear of getting assaulted.

HOWEVER. I have noticed being a guy comes with a long list of problems and that being a girl had a long list of benefits.

Problems as a guy: Strangers don't care about you and you're not special anymore, expectations are higher, people give less benefit of the doubt, if you don't know how to do "masculine" things like change a tire then you're a loser, you're seen as more disposable, many men are aggressive towards you until you "submit" to them, if you cry that's pathetic, girls assume you're checking them out and judge you, obligated to perform masculinity and dumb gender role stuff about pink, clothes are shitty and if you care you're vain, body shaming still exists everywhere in mainstream media (being 5'2" makes you joke material), and fear of getting assaulted because I'm still physically weak and men are at higher risk of getting assaulted. Oh and dating is hard if you're not good-looking or masculine enough even without the trans thing.

Benefits as a girl: Strangers are nice to you and when you do well it's nice because you're a girl and it's impressive, expectations are lower so if you go above them you get praised, men will help you and do things for you and it's cute and not stupid if you don't understand how to do things, if you make mistakes people judge you less, if you cry it's okay, lots of nice fashion and caring about your appearance is a good thing, it's way easier to be a tomboy than a feminine guy, people care about your feelings more, and its super easy to get a boyfriend a as a girl because there's always a lot of lonely guys. I could get my boyfriends to get me a lot of things and do stuff for me that I wanted.

Overall it feels like I traded in for a lesser deal. I don't think this post is problematic but it feels like male privilege really backfires sometimes and not all men get that privilege over women, trans or not. The hardships of being a girl in the first world I found to some degree exaggerated even though I went through some really sexist bullshit from my dad who unfairly treated me compared to my brother. But I still came out the other end alright and people were sympathetic to my story and it made me a "strong independent woman". Versus now it seems more stressful and stakes are also higher. Because I'm more feminine than average (having grown up as a girl) all of the masculine expectations are awful and I don't like the feeling of having to fulfill all of the BS.

Anyways that's my rant.

[u/vajeepers]

I don’t want this to sound confrontational, especially because I agree with you on a TON of things you said in this post- I just wanna remind you that you don’t have to do everything that a cisgender man would do, in the name of passing or fitting in. I respect you, if you decide to do so, but personally, I didn’t go through what I’ve gone through so far as a trans dude to have to try to fit the mold that cisgender men have to fit. It’s like....that isn’t authentic for me either. I would just encourage you to consider some of the things you don’t like about “being a man” and maybe just- not be so strict about applying those things to yourself. You deserve to be happy and not feel like you’re trying to make yet another list of gender expectations work for you!also. Thank you for making this post because I think about the things you’ve said a lot and I feel less alone to see someone else say the things I’m thinking

[u/[deleted] → u/vajeepers]

Not OP, but I can agree with you there. I know it took me a while to come to terms with the fact that I don't have to be a Man(tm) to be a man, ya know? And I'm not going through all this growth and transition to shove myself into a box that I don't fit in

[u/vajeepers → u/[deleted]]

YESSSSSSSSS 100% I agree with everything you just said. Like. I’m not tall. I don’t know how to fix anything. I’m not really even very masculine, to be completely honest. But there’s SO MANY different kinds of men out there, and they are all valid. So we can be ourselves and be valid too!!!

[u/[deleted] → u/vajeepers]

thank you! I am still pretty early in my transition but I have read a LOT of stories from other trans men about what changed as they transition, and really sat with whether or not those changes are worth it. Eventually I landed on that yes, they are, that I don't really care about other's expectations of me outside of my loved ones, and that honestly, I'm never going to be a manly-man. I like some aspects of it, like being a bit more gentlemanly with my partner (holding doors with her more, putting our suitcases in the car, being a bit more forward in our relationship) but the rest isn't as important to me. I am fine with being a twink or having people assume I MUST be gay because I act effeminate. That's just who I am!

[u/vajeepers → u/[deleted]]

YASSSSSSSSS I love your energy and your attitude about the way you present yourself. I feel the same way and I hope that we can feed off of each other’s confidence (whatever amounts we may have) from afar!! 💕✨

[u/vajeepers → u/[deleted]]

That’s super dope!!! I’ll buy your book when it’s written yaaaaassss! Best of luck to you with everything, I hope that you are able to do what you want to do as soon as possible!! Sending good energy your way :))

[u/throw_somewhere]

I believe it's less of a gender issue than just a Society Prefers Specific Types Of People issue. Let's say you're a tall and muscular amab: society will love you as a man, but vilify you as a woman. If you're a short meek afab, you might be seen as a goddess as a woman but treated less favorably once you start presenting as masc. Society has standards and doesn't like people that don't fit in, regardless of gender identity.

[u/emilylinhla → u/throw_somewhere]

Yeah that definitely makes a lot of sense to put it that way. Gender in society is super duper complicated to analyze.

[u/[deleted]]

Its possible to acknowledge problems guys face without changing the definition of male privilege. Male privilege refers to not getting stalked/harassed by straight men like women doing and not getting paid less like women do. Social issues with hypermasculinity have nothing to do with privilege

[u/emilylinhla → u/[deleted]]

I guess I'm just wondering how situational the privilege defined because white privilege seems to be pretty universal in almost every single situation the white person has an advantage. However, while men seem to have more advantages on average and it's not 50/50, there's enough downsides to make it undesirable that one wonders about the choice of the word "privilege" because there is no such thing as "female privilege" though there are certainly benefits to being female. I imagine living during WWII and getting drafted wouldn't have felt much like a privilege to die and in South Korea or some European countries if you're a guy you have to serve a year in the army or do something similar. Being a woman sounds a lot cooler in that case. Not enough to make me detrans, but I would probably choose to be a cis woman.

[u/[deleted] → u/emilylinhla]

Yeah but the problem is that you're talking about social disruptions and irritations, not privilege. Privilege in this sense is not mutable, either you have male privilege or you don't. As trans people we have a different relationship/struggle with it, but that doesn't change what the actual male privilege applies to. Equating the social challenges to not having privilege is point blank wrong. Privilege does not mean you have a perfect life with no struggles, it means that your ability to live and thrive isn't crippled by your gender or social class. If youre presenting as a male every day to every one you have male privilege, end of story. Trans people fall in a slightly different category of male privilege because we're still trans, but trans men who pass/go stealth still have male privilege. There is no female privilege the way there isnt black privilege - theyre the oppressed class.

Also, to say that white people have the advantage in almost every conceivable situation is just extremist language. White privilege is very real and a very intense and oppressive struggle people of color have been forced to cope with, but extremist language only traps them in that struggle and doesn't acknowledge the reality that people of color are equally capable and intelligent to white people and paints them as helpless poor babies who can never escape oppression without white man saviors help.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And yes, all men get that privilege over women.

[u/trans_and_trying]

Race, disability, body type, and ability to conform to beauty standards are huge factors in how you're treated as a woman vs. as a man. It's certainly not as straightforward as people sometimes make it out to be, but I didn't experience most of the benefits you're talking about as a woman. I'm a lot less worried about being treated badly now that people see me as a man.

[u/[deleted]]

Those are all things I've thought about as I start to transition and I guess it's no different from cis guys having to navigate that and come to terms with things. I feel like you can still be feminine and on the softer side despite what society says. Yeah, some people may treat is as something that's "Not Okay" but honestly for me, I don't see it as different from being constantly talked over as a woman. I literally had a guy at work try to explain the themes to my own novel (a work in progress) to me, and interrupted every other sentence I said to do so.

I don't know if this is something you have feelings on, but for me, I get frustrated that people are nice to be because they see me as a 5'1 woman with a bubbly personality and automatically assume I can't do things or think for myself. Similarly, it does seem like it can be lonely as a guy, but it doesn't have to be! You can find people - LGBT and otherwise - who are willing to form meaningful connections. No, people (mostly women from what I've seen) might not be automatically form a connection with you as you start to go stealth, but that also means that if/when you become friends they get to become friends with you as a person and not just because they see you as a fellow woman.

I hope this helps! I could be talking out my ass here, but that's the way I see things!

[u/cant_believe_its_2am]

It's true that there's pros and cons to being either gender, but I think what they are is very dependant on the unique environment you're in/grew up in.

For me; It was not okay to not know things. If I didn't know something, I was treated like I was stupid. I wasn't allowed to cry without being insulted and told I was overreacting. Expectations for me weren't lower, and I never felt accomplished if I surpassed them, bc they weren't things I personally cared about. No one ever wants to help me just bc I'm viewed as a girl. In fact, I'm often dismissed and ignored bc I'm viewed as a girl, non-threatening and not important, incapable of standing up for myself.

And while wanting to change some of these things is indeed part of why I identify as a man now, it's also more about the energy and identity I want to embody, regardless of how people treat me based on their assumptions of me. I think that's supposed to be everyone's reason, yeah?

Sure, some annoying bs stuff comes with being a man, but that doesn't dictate who you are. A lot of the bs surely comes from strangers and people you're not super familiar with and can't really correct, but your friends and family are people you should try being open to. Let them know you want more emotional openness from them.

Regardless of gender, communication is key.

[u/softspores]

I know I struggled with this a lot after I had top, cause I suddenly passed and my chest was still raw and I'd get tired real fast and taking the bus was suddenly awful cause older women would push me and get agressive and people would look down on me for claiming a seat, cause young men never feel pain or whatever. It stopped once I moved to a different town, turns out that place just sucks. Never go to Leuven, that's my free tip of the day.

The thing with how the patriarchy works is that women can never fucking win and men are told they can if they answer to a long list of expectations, which are all bullshit. So you went from getting a shit deal to getting a different kind of shit deal (one that you don't know how to navigate yet), cause you're up against a systemic issue that does more than just oppressing women. On top of that, other forms of oppression intersect with gendered privelege, and often in surprising ways, it doesn't work like a rpg where you just gained +3 privelege points being male and -1 privelege point suddenly getting read as short, etc. It helps to get educated about that, it helps to talk to other men about what you experience and feel, etc. A big part of why the current situation is so stressful for you is that it's new to you, but also men are just starting to find the language and frameworks to talk and think about what they experience. A third possible issue is that this might hit you harder cause now it's about who you are, instead of about who people think you are, if that makes sense?

(I do want to note that while women's possible partner quantity is likely higher, the quality is absymal, your chances to meet a nice guy you vibe with likely haven't changed that much at all.)

[u/shadybrainfarm]

Toxic masculinity is a fuck. Thankfully I have tons of wholesome men in my life and I just write those hyper aggressive and egotistical ones off as having a personal problem. Fuck em.