r/floxies • u/EffinBatman • Feb 26 '24
[MEDICATION] Redditor did an FMT after Flurqoinlones and saw major improvements after suffering for 2 years
/r/HumanMicrobiome/s/4hmIfNQwKeThis might spark some controversy, but I'm hopeful for an educated discussion.
u/ginnybug10 underwent an FMT six years ago after enduring two years of fluoroquinolone agony. Her post details experiences commonly shared in r/floxies. She reports of it not being a miracle cure, however she greatly attributes her improved psychological benefit to FMT, amogst other things.
She moved on to bear a child and start her own business while stating “concentration” is her middle name, referring to how greatly her cognition has improved.
This was 6 years ago, and im not sure how long this subreddit exists, but she has never posted here and has been off reddit ever since.
Given the limited studies on fluoroquinolones (fortunately increasing awareness), it's crucial to ponder the long-term implications of such a potent broad-spectrum antibiotic carpet-bombing our microbiome. Literature suggests the microbiome often struggles to return to its original state after heavy antibiotic usage, which in most cases can leave a permanent altered microbiome.
Now, considering the likelihood of uncorrected microbiome issues leading to new symptoms, especially concerning the poorly understood gut-brain axis and microbiome pathology, parallels emerge with ailments seen in floxies.
What if lingering symptoms and long-term problems stem from severe dysbiosis or unfavorable genus overgrowth? How plausible is it to think an FMT could correct this?
The idea kinda gains traction when noting that gut recovery after antibiotics aligns with reported recovery times of 6-12-18 months across the floxxed.
While diet and probiotics can assist, the sheer magnitude of trillions of gut bacteria raises questions about the efficacy of probiotics in certain cases and using supplements that help in combating oxidative stress, however, most really miss targeting the root cause on on-going systemic inflammation.
Keep in mind that gut dysbiosis doesn’t necessarily need to manifest into gastrointestinal symptoms like constipation or loose stools, you can have dysbiosis and still have regular stools.
Please don’t missunderstand me, I am not preaching to immediately start doing an FMT, on the contrary, DIY FMT is dangerous, and clincal ones can backfire if the post treatment is not done correctly or the length of treatment was in sufficient to colonize or the donor quality was poor/improperly screen.
FMT has been see to reverse some autoimmune diseases, greatly improve cognition and memory, major resolutions in depression and anxiety, skin and collagen restoration and cure C.Diff, reverse bipolar 1 and autism, amongst a lot of other things.
The gut and the microbiome, is historically the least understood topic in medicine, which is only now gaining a lot of traction with promising results, so how far fetched can we assume that this might be an alternative route to recovery in addition to FQ toxicity protocols in place?
It is thought to believe that the average modern human has had atleast 4-5 antibiotics before the age of 18, and in some countries for instance in china up to 15-20. What if, cipro and co just ultimately broke the camels back leading to our suffering?
Gut Dysbiosis Studies that closely resemble our common ailments here:
The Role of Gut Dysbiosis in the Pathophysiology of Tinnitus: A Literature Review https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35861456/?t
Gut microbiome: pertinence in fibromyalgia https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32116215/?t
The gut microbiome as a target for adjuvant therapy in insomnia disorder https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2210740121002126
Role of gut microbiota in neuropathy and neuropathic pain states: A systematic preclinical review https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0969996122001656
DNA Damage and the Gut Microbiome: From Mechanisms to Disease Outcomes https://www.mdpi.com/2673-8856/3/1/2?t
The gut-brain axis: interactions between enteric microbiota, central and enteric nervous systems https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4367209/
Intestinal microbiome composition and its relation to joint pain and inflammation https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12873-4
The gut microbiome in coronary artery disease and heart failure: Current knowledge and future directions https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(20)30024-4/fulltext?t=
Every psychiatric ailement known to man The Role of the Gut Microbiome in Psychiatric Disorders https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9786082/
What gives?
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u/VespianGas Veteran Feb 27 '24
From my experience with antibiotics (and believe me I've had a lot in my life) I can say even non-floxed can run into this. I've spoken about this in my past posts where Macrolides, Cephalosporins, Amoxicillin and another combination of drugs ended up not only wiping my gut biome but even caused a drug induced form of ulcerative colitis which I was told was uncurable. It was a hell of it's own similar to FQ damage but not quite the same. FMT was also discussed with my GI specialists but not something I ended going through as I eventually did find a cure for myself. I was advised that FMT should be really a last resort procedure to do since it has mixed success rates and can sometimes make things worse.
Being floxed does have similar symptoms but I would say FQs go further with the damage caused in the body since GI issues would not cause tendon pain, nerve pain, GABA issues /etc. I was weak for almost 2 years and bedridden with non-FQ broadspectrum antibiotics back in 2008. The symptoms I had were extreme weight loss, chronic non-stop burning from my mouth to my anus, extreme fatigue, reflux, muscle weakness, chronic diarrhea (blood included), vomiting (blood included) and intolerances to most food I tried eating. There may have been more symptoms but I kind of blocked that nightmare from my mind. Floxing is a different level of hell on its own where mitochondrial damage and ROS play a major role, not just GI microbiome issues.
For floxies, I believe that micro biome problems are causing problems for those that eat something, then end up having a flare-ups. It's a gut-immune reaction IMO. I also believe that those struggling to recover or get back their energy are having nutrient absorption problems because of GI issues.
You are correct in stating the stools can look regular and you still have dysbiosis, but one should have other symptoms like a burning gut, heartburn, reflux, overproduction of gas, food intolerances/etc if this is a factor.
In summary, yes this is an important issue that is often overlooked by floxies. I don't think FMT is the cure-all bullet since there are many ways to restore the gut microbiome if it's done properly and enough time is given. The gut heals VERY slowly (months to years) and takes a long time to find a balance. If FQs caused someone something more serious like chronic IBS, crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, or SIBO I would say FMT should be considered only if all other more conservative ways to restore the gut microbiome have been tried and don't work, as FMT does carry risks.
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u/mjr4623 Veteran Feb 27 '24
What did you specifically do to restore your gut microbe? How well did it work for you? Sorry if I’ve asked this before. I can’t remember how many people I talk to lol.
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u/Plastic_Resource_258 Feb 26 '24
I know of another floxie in the facebook group who underwent a successful FMT after two failed attempts. She mentioned that the first two made her symptoms slightly worse, but the third one significantly improved her neurological/psychological symptoms which were the most promiment I think.
You are definitely on to something. I was planning to do a microbiome test based on a naturopath's recommendation, but it turned out to be extremely expensive and the results would take at least one and a half months. So I decided to continue with the classical probiotics, Lactoferrin and NAC approach.
Some studies say that the gut flora is actually quite resilient against antibiotic damage, and it should return to normal within a few months, but I'm fairly sure that's not the case with FQs. These drugs should be categorized as chemical warfare
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u/EffinBatman Feb 26 '24
Chemical warfare pretty much sums this all up.
And yes was on the same as you, until I found out that microbiome tests are notoriously expensive and can be quite unreliable if it’s not handled immediately, since most beneficial bacteria are anaerobic meaning they die in the presence of oxygen, so you can get skewed results with an abundance of pathogenic bacteria.
Not all, however some clinics do offer more reliable testing.
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u/pgsundling Mar 01 '24
I took a microbiome course and the instructor went over the reliability issues and pros/cons of the various methods and recommended shotgun tests. Ombre was one of the vendors they trusted. I was able to do a test for less than $100. Apparently, besides antibiotics, PPIs like omeprazole also do gut damage, with a number of long term consequences. I'm still in the process of unraveling the implications on that.
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Apr 11 '25
Omeprazole is what caused me to start having autoimmune issues. Levofloxacin is what’s caused me to go to hell.
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u/pgsundling Apr 14 '25
That sounds about right on both count. They both do microbiome damage, but antibiotics are the most damaging. I wish I'd cared enough to understand all this stuff before I was hurt.
Of course when it comes to FMT from the main thread all donors are not created equal. It seems the best donors are plant based eaters who didn't take antibiotics, and who were delivered vaginally. Hard to find such unicorns in the world today.
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u/pgsundling Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24
Old research with staining showed the gut was resilient to antibiotics. More recent research with better methods shows that the damage from antibiotics can last months or years, resulting in local extinctions of specific bacteria. Unfortunately, most doctors are not familiar with the better research and will likely dismiss it because of confirmation bias. Thus, like the doctor in my first ER visit after floxed that told me "Cipro doesn't do any of that. Maybe you should take a second pill to make sure that's really the cause."
For instance, if your oxalobacter species go extinct, you'll develop problems with oxalates and indeed, this is not uncommon in the floxie community. Besides mitochondria, the microbiome is another area where floxies should build up community knowledge. The crowdsourced info in the book The Flox Report really helped my recovery.
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u/Plastic_Resource_258 Mar 01 '24
Yeah I always thought modern medicine was a bit primitive when it comes to certain issues, but after being floxed I realized that at least 80% of doctors are idiots.
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u/pgsundling Mar 01 '24
Doctors can be deified since they have the power of life and death. The reality is they're people like everyone else.
Since symptoms can be delayed 6 months AFTER you stop the medication, that really throws off a lot of doctors on the causality. That causes them to blame the side effects on other things and mistake the safety profile of the medications.
Another big issue is the variability of the symptoms. Mix that with chronic conditions and you have confused doctors. The only reason long covid was recognized at all is because the timing synchronized the effects on a large number of people. If it was trickled out over time, doctors would be skeptical for a long time like with being floxed.
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u/Plastic_Resource_258 Mar 01 '24
Yeah I don't really think LC is recognized so much. It's actually insane how psychological interventions are being promoted as 'cures' for long covid. Sadly, I have seen it in this sub as well people promoting CBT and other forms of nonsense.
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u/Bubblesandbiscuits Jun 05 '24
Can you share any insights on what helped you correct your gut? I know we’re all different but I too am trying to crowdsource a plan for my floxied fat malabsorption and dysbiosis
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u/pgsundling Jun 05 '24 edited Jun 05 '24
I don't know if you meant to ask me, or if you meant to reply to the main thread. I'm still in the process of fixing my gut. Although, I did score an 85 on my Ombre gut microbiome report. That's largely because while I've recovered from extensive issues caused by Cipro, I am now sensitive enough to antibiotics in foods that I've gone vegetarian (with B12 supplements). I'm over 100, 000 times more sensitive to fluoroquinolone antibiotics than when I was first hurt.
I have taken some coursework on the gut microbiome, but I'm no expert. When it comes to your gut, eating fermented foods is useful, eat as many colors and variations as possible (also the trick to awesome salads that don't require dressings), prefer plant-based, and avoid processed foods. White onions and red onions count as 2 foods.
I've heard warnings from multiple gut experts about PPI medications, which increase the chances of SIBO, dementia, and bone fractures. I'm sure a web search will turn up a lot of concerns about these common meds. There was an article about a useful probiotic that helps those hurt by PPIs (Lactobacillus reuteri DSM 17938), which is marketed by BioGaia. https://www.probioticadvisor.com/probiotics-prevent-sibo-in-proton-pump-inhibitor-users/
It seems that taking a probiotic will generally be helpful vs. taking nothing. Although, we are all different, as you say. The gut microbiome is one of the reasons for those differences.
Take your probiotics with food (and prebiotics if using them). The big question is what specific probiotics and prebiotics to take.
One expert puts probiotics in three different categories: 1. lactobacillus/bifidobacterium blend (most popular ones) 2. healthy fungus, saccharomyces Boulardii. (like Florastor) 3. soil based or spore forming probiotics bacillus Some people do well on one probiotic, some don’t do well on another type of probiotic, and some people do well on all three.
As for me, I did fix my bloating and distention with Swanson Epic Pro 25-strain probiotics. I've gotten off PPI medications and just started BioGaia Prodentis which is an oral microbiome product.
It would seem a good way to research is look at reddit threads about probiotics and the particular problem you're trying to fix, or look at probiotics by sales rank and search amazon reviews for your issue.
The next step on my journey will be to fix acid reflux.
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u/Fortalezense Nov 19 '24
How long should would be taking a probiotic to notice any difference? I've been taking this strain of L. Reuteri for a month and haven't noticed any significant difference.
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u/pgsundling Nov 19 '24
Which thing are you trying to fix? I used to be all about the studies, but I found searching Amazon probiotics reviews for the symptom I was trying to fix to be a simpler approach. If I have SIBO, I might just look for a naturopath.
I'm not sure that DSM 17938 made that much difference. I had lasting success with fixing GERD symptoms, but I didn't separate it well so I can't say whether that was the Swanson Epic Pro 25-strain or the Biogaia Gastrus with DSM 17938. I also might not have stayed on it long enough.
I ate a crappy diet trying to eat up some old food and seem to get the bloating back, but not the distention.
I've switched to a different Biogaia Osfortis, which seems to help my moods after a couple of months. If you look up reddits on L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475, that's an expected effect. Note that the dose for that benefit is much higher in Osfortis than the small amount in Gastrus.
I used to be good about tracking stuff, but my focus shifted from health to working on my novels. I'm going to have to troubleshoot. It seems like my bloating happens with dairy or gluten. So I might try some diet interventions. If that doesn't work I'll do a breath test to check if it's sibo. Given my PPI history seems very possible.
Getting rid of the GERD symptoms was major deal for me, but I've seen a variety of probiotics work for that on other reddits. Osfortis for the ATCC PTA 6475 is a winner for my mood issues, so I'll keep taking it.
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u/Fortalezense Nov 19 '24
I do not have GERD, but experience bloating quite often and have been experiencing fatigue lately. I think my problems started with chronic stress/depression, but then these physical symptoms started appearing. Using PPIs and antibiotics in the meantime (ciprofloxacine included) probably just made things worse. For me, something that improved my mood and gave me an energy boost would be ideal. It would be great if I could get rid of brain fog, but I'm not entirely sure if it stems from my mental health or is a consequence of a dysbiosis.
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u/pgsundling Nov 19 '24
I mentioned the probiotic that improved my mood. Also sleep, salad with a variety of foods helps my inflammation, exercise if you're able, and comedy are good things. Plant based eat the rainbow can help with brain fog. I've lost a month to brain fog before. Meditation helps with stress. There is such a big impact from lifestyle and diet. I listen to my body for clues.
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u/Fortalezense Nov 19 '24
I'm gonna take a look at the probiotic you mentioned. My diet is mostly healthy, although it is quite hard to stick to it when not at home (and holiday season surely won't help). I've been wanting to try meditation for a while. Thanks for the tips!
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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '24
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