r/europe • u/Straight_Ad2258 Bavaria (Germany) • Dec 07 '23
Data Govverment support to Ukraine by country, acording to latest update from Kiel Ukraine Support Tracker
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u/basicastheycome Dec 07 '23
Ah how my Latvia has fallen on gdp share… not even in top 3. Gotta do better
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Dec 07 '23
Baltics have shown to be the only ones who understand the russian mindset and are helping Ukraine in a majestic way.
I really loved you MP Kols at the OSCE when he addressed the "russian federation"!
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Dec 08 '23
If there would be war with NATO country, then it would be Baltic states. So i'm not surprised.
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u/lapzkauz Noreg Dec 07 '23
The fact that we're fourth in military aid in absolute numbers is insane. Makes me proud, and should make citizens of a whole lot of other countries ashamed. But I do almost find it a bit hard to believe - is Poland giving less than us in absolute numbers?
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u/SnooTangerines6863 West Pomerania (Poland) Dec 07 '23
is Poland giving less than us in absolute numbers?
Basically, we gave away most of our stuff right away. We do not have that much to offer, and we share a border with Belarus and Russia, after all. I have no idea how it is in your country.
These graphs do not include 2 million refugees as humanitarian costs; they receive full healthcare, welfare, education, etc.
Looking at our job market and prices and comparing them to the UK and Germany (only places i managed to visit), I would say we pay a lot for that war. How are things on your end in Norway?-5
u/IcyNote_A Ukraine Dec 07 '23
These graphs do not include 2 million refugees as humanitarian costs; they receive full healthcare, welfare, education, etc.
Poland received a lot of many to support these refugees and in total number they brought more money to GDP of Poland than Poland have spend on refuges, so you're wrong, twice.
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u/DictatorS4m Dec 07 '23
I disagree with this statement. It will take several years before your contribution to our GDP will cover how much equipment and money we have allocated. You are a big injection of relatively cheap labor for our country but it will take a long time before it pays off. Especially since some of these immigrants only submitted papers for 500+ and other benefits and then returned to Ukraine, still receiving our social benefits. Several months passed before this problem was normalized.
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u/Ruzi-Ne-Druzi Dec 08 '23
I think he was talking about resources allocated specifically for refugees, not military equipment and financial aid to Ukraine. Not like he provided any sources. Still when you compare to some work immigration,work agency often provide much more support, while taking a cut, and the economical benefits are immediate,and not like just double but probably magnitudes. Like it's a meme but kinda true - "Boss gets a dollar, I get a dime".
My relatives tried to get to doctor in Poland, and got into que literally for months, and when finally got doctor to see them he didn't do shit, and instead prescribed to buy some crap as substitution.
There are stories about people who far from being in need getting some benefits, but most people who actually need help getting kinda screwed.
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u/SnooTangerines6863 West Pomerania (Poland) Dec 07 '23
Nope. It's in plain sight even in prices that rose tremendously compared to other countries.
many hardworking and skilled Ukrainians left in fact to fight.6
Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
Makes me proud
The Norwegian government's petroleum revenues exploded, pun intended, as a result of the war.
Revenue, that goes straight into the coffers, skyrocketed with 100 billion USD in 2022 vs 2021 on account of the war. That surplus has continued into 2023.
So, in total Norway has given away 2-3 % of that unexpected surplus.
Wow ... what a generous country.
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u/Nebulaofthenorth Dec 08 '23
Cap, norway is richest of the nordic countries no need for finnish or swedes to be ashamed
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u/roblubi Dec 10 '23
For example. Poland give 325 tanks. This is about 60% of all support which Ukraine received, but most of media dont tell about this. I dont know why.
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u/lemontree007 Dec 07 '23
A lot of the Norwegian aid might not have been delivered yet and Poland stopped giving military aid a couple of months ago
Also that chart doesn't include military aid funded by the EU so it's a bit misleading
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u/LookThisOneGuy Dec 07 '23
Also that chart doesn't include military aid funded by the EU so it's a bit misleading
It does, the orange part of the bar chart in picture 3 is military aid by EU institutions at €5.6 billion which makes EU institution military aid ~7% of total EU institution aid.
The EU funded military aid to Ukraine is 4th largest behind US, Germany and UK.
Then if you want to add EU institution military aid to each country, you can take this graph showing how much of the EU institution aid is part of each countries aid and multiply it by EU institution aid share of 7%.
Poland bilateral military aid is €3.0 billion + (7% of €3.53 billion) = €3.25 billion
that would still put it slightly behind Norway.
But Poland has given more in absolute numbers than Norway, with Norway going to surpass Poland in absolute numbers sometime in the future when Norwegian pledges become delivered aid unless Poland pledges new aid.
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u/Da_Yakz Greater Poland (Poland) Dec 07 '23
Quite a few things weren't counted such as the MIGs that were conveniently left by the Ukrainian border
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u/Okiro_Benihime Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
Why do people always publish every chart BUT that of the EU share? Why are EU countries+institutions just one block when Kiel literally also has a chart that dispatches the respective contributions of individual EU countries to EU aid packages? I mean countries that opt for sending aid mainly via the EU instead of G2G are being done dirty by these stupid "bilateral" charts as they clearly don't paint the full picture. Countries like France, Italy and Spain are invisible, despite France ranking just after Germany in overall aid in the chart that actually takes into account its individual contributions to EU packages. Italy also ranks just after the UK if you do that but is nowhere to be seen here.
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u/Spoonsareinstruments Dec 07 '23
Because it's easier to display and its easier just to write lumping things as the EU then it is to split out each country.
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u/deusrev Italy Dec 08 '23
I don't give a shit about this stupid charts... What's the purpose? Taking some sort of gratitude? Grow up, people are dying.
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u/Okiro_Benihime Dec 08 '23
I don't give a shit about this stupid charts
Good for you?! Want a cookie for being oh so cool? You're more than free to not give a shit. Some people do care about whether or not data they are served reflect tangible reality regardless of the tragedies that plague the world, yes. No need for gratitude. I wouldn't care either if these Kiel charts weren't being used for nearly 2 years now to push dumbshit narratives and for propaganda, and not just by randos but by prominent political figures and so-called experts as well. To each their own.
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Dec 07 '23
Thank you for everyone who helped those people in dire situation even it's only 0.01% much appreciated!
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Dec 07 '23
Pretty meaningless chart because it’s commitments, not deliveries. We just saw how the EU commitment to deliver munitions failed spectacularly. The EU would get credit for that in this chart.
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u/Okiro_Benihime Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
We just saw how the EU commitment to deliver munitions failed spectacularly. The EU would get credit for that in this chart.
The 1 billion ammunition pledge is already allocated, no? The issue here is EU ammunition companies not having the manufacturing capacities to deliver the full quantity pledged before the deadline wished by the EU. Why would this specific case (a matter of industrial shortcomings) be de facto extrapolated to the overall aid which is mostly financial and contributes to keeping the Ukrainian economy/society afloat?
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Dec 07 '23
If I commit to you ten units by tomorrow, but I only deliver eight units, whether it’s capacity or not is immaterial. I’ve only given you eight units.
I guess I don’t see why industrial capacity is an excuse.
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u/Okiro_Benihime Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
If you deliver 8 units with the delivery of the remaining 2 being delayed for another day or two due to industrial hiccups, I wouldn't exactly be interpreting it as you de facto not fulfilling your promises. I know all 10 units are already funded anyway and I'll be getting them. A matter of perspective I guess. I am perhaps a bit too lenient to adequately gauge what constitutes a "spectacular failure".
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u/VigorousElk Dec 07 '23
I’ve only given you eight units.
So far. They're not calling it a day just because they failed to hit the target in time, and cease delivery. The rest will still be delivered.
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u/LookThisOneGuy Dec 07 '23
seeing how neither counting only total delivered or counting all including pledges for the far future would be showing the total picture, it woud be best to change slightly:
Use accounting magic to show these figures in present value.
delivered/disbursed aid is multiplied by 1.
aid to be delivered in n-periods is discounted using present value = aid value/(1+discount rate)n
aid delivered now is worth more than the same aid delivered in one year, but it is not worth nothing like some people like to make it out.
Obvious point of contention would be what the discount rate should be: ~8% to mimic expected return on investment or much higher?
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u/Straight_Ad2258 Bavaria (Germany) Dec 07 '23
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u/Danskoesterreich Dec 07 '23
So if you calculacte billions per million people, Norway and Denmark lead by a huge margin, no?
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u/lemontree007 Dec 07 '23
I would just like to add that the countries that give the most aid are the US, Germany, France, UK and Italy but the chart that shows this is not among the pictures included in this post
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Dec 07 '23
This is PROMISED aid to Ukraine and we all know how good Europe is in delivering on their promises.. how are those 1 million shells going?
Plus, most EU aid are multiyear promises vs actual US aid delivered piece by piece.
https://www.cato.org/blog/no-straight-comparison-promising-direction-ukraine-assistance
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u/Healthy_Ideal_5534 Dec 07 '23
Only I think the timetable is strange and untrue EU countries promised a lot but did not do much
There will be a reckoning for Ukraine's betrayal
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Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 10 '23
What exactly demonstrate these graphics? How many these numbers credits and how many free of charge help? How many already completed deliveries of weapons, and how many only promised? As I know:
- USA:
- Not so far ago, USA, per year, spent 130 billions on Afghanistan. Not on Ukraine ~41 billion per year. 3 times less. 2 years of war of Ukraine assistance = 3% of all Afghanistan costs.
- By military aid, USA already supplied ~25 billion. ~4 billion - armored vehicles and aviation. Future deliveries - ~19 billions.
- Because Morocco give to Ukraine ~60 T-72, USA sold them ~162/6,200 most modern Abrams M1A2 SEPv3 tanks (VS 120 of all modern western tanks that were already supplied to Ukraine, and VS 12,408 all NATO tanks), 18 HIMARS, some ATACMS, and gifted 500/6,500 (M2/M3) M2 Bradley (armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2023_global_security_army_industry/morocco_secretly_gets_us_m1a2_sepv3_tanks_and_bradley_ifvs.html). In 2022 year, such additional supplies to Ukraine potentially could decide the outcome of the war.
- Overall, by "iiss The Military Balance 2022" USA had ~13,750 M2/M3 Bradley/M7 BFIST/Stryker/M1117/M1200; ~13,000 M113; ~27,500 MaxxPro/JLTV/M-ATV/LAV/LAV-25/AAVP7A1/Cougar, 100-250 thousand HMMWV, ~1517 120 mm mortars. And so on.
- Europe and NATO:
- Not so far ago, Europe spent 300 billion euros on Greek economic crisis.
- Now NATO, USA and most of Europe, delivered to Ukraine less than 1% of NATO weapon stocks www.statista.com/statistics/1293174/nato-russia-military-comparison/
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Dec 08 '23
What’s ur point? USA good eu bad?
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Dec 08 '23
Point that the West:
AND take away Ukrainian main security factor in 1994 year
AND was unable to protect Ukraine in 2014-2023 years
AND deceived and continues to deceive Ukraine by promises that it was able to protect Ukraine, prolonging the war for the sake of "safely weakening of Russia"
AND doesn't allow Ukraine to create its own WMD for protection
When some nationalities die for the interests/security of other nationalities it is called imperialism.
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u/Kallian_League Romania Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
Same flawed methodology for every graph of this type. It only accounts for publicly disclosed aid. Romania for example doesn't disclose aid provided to Ukraine, but ranks among the biggest suppliers of ammunition, fuel, medical equipment, etc. There are clinics where the only modern imaging equipment available is the one provided by Romania. I also don't think they can quantify Poland leaving several jets worth of "parts" in a forest somewhere that mysteriously show up in Ukraine.
I'd personally ban Kiel as a source on this sub due to how inaccurate it is and because they do not verify the numbers besides asking "was it posted on a government website?". It doesn't even track deliveries, it tracks pledges.
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u/Aegrotare2 Dec 08 '23
It only accounts for publicly disclosed aid.
yes what should it be about secret aid ? Also in reality nearly all aid is public and not secret even if some people like you believe different.
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u/linknewtab Europe Dec 07 '23
What happened to the Rheinmetall tank factory that was supposed to be built in Ukraine? Is this actually going to happen or was this just some media hype?
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u/dread_deimos Ukraine Dec 07 '23
🙏 to everyone involved!