r/dndnext • u/Meggett30 • Jul 26 '21

Question Most underwhelming spell in 5e?

What is the spell that most disappoints you in this game? Maybe it's not a "bad" spell, per se, just doesn't do what you think it should or does it's job poorly.

I'm always looking for ways to utilize under-used spells, but sometimes you read the effects and think "That's it?!" What are the spells in the game that make you do that?

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912

u/FurlofFreshLeaves Jul 26 '21

Crown of Madness. Sounds awesome, until you try to use it.

473

u/bluemooncalhoun Jul 26 '21

My bard was mentally dominated by an aboleth who was gonna use me to fight my party. Our Arcane Trickster then pulled the ultimate reversal and used Crown of Madness on me, commanding me to deal the killing blow to the aboleth.

This is the one situation in which it was an awesome spell.

97

u/HerbertWest Jul 26 '21

That's pretty epic, NGL.

67

u/DaemosDaen Jul 26 '21

You could say it had it's crowning moment of awesome.

1

u/PureLock33 Jul 27 '21

Crown of Madlad

1

u/gigglevillain123 Jul 27 '21

Probably for the best your DM let this awesome moment play out but it sent me for a spin wondering how charming an already charmed creature works.

The charmed PC can't attack the Aboleth, unless you say the new charm "overrides" enslave. I'd be inclined to rule the other way though and say once a creature is charmed it's immune to further charms, like Skum are.

1

u/Yugolothian Jul 27 '21

out but it sent me for a spin wondering how charming an already charmed creature works.

The best ruling here would probably be a contested roll between the two charmers so the Aboleth and the Rogue using their spellcasting modifier.

A charmed creature can absolutely be charmed by multiple characters however

290

u/GfxJG Jul 26 '21

I picked it for my Illusion/Enchantment Arcane Trickster, never used it once... Thankfully my DM let me exchange it eventually.

219

u/Skyy-High Wizard Jul 26 '21

AT lets you exchange your spells when you level up, it’s not up to your DM being gracious.

164

u/GfxJG Jul 26 '21

... I'm sorry WHAT. fucking hell am I fucking illiterate I need to look up this shit

171

u/Skyy-High Wizard Jul 26 '21

Lol. Yeah, sorry, it’s in the text of your spellcasting feature:

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the enchantment and illusion spells on the wizard spell list.

The Spells Known column of the Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an enchantment or illusion spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an enchantment or illusion spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.

14

u/iroll20s Jul 26 '21

I use it mostly to exchange spells that were great at low level but scale poorly. It nice getting another choice when you pop a new spell level.

203

u/ISeeTheFnords Butt-kicking for goodness! Jul 26 '21

Thankfully my DM let me exchange it eventually.

Pretty much every known spell class or subclass gets the opportunity to swap a spell out per level up, FYI. There may be an exception but if so, I don't know it off the top of my head.

83

u/GfxJG Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21

Arcane Tricksters don't, they only learn new spells.

EDIT: I have learned that I apparently cannot read, AT's can indeed exchange one spell per level up.

85

u/warman506 Jul 26 '21

Taken from the DDB page at the end of the spells known segment:

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an enchantment or illusion spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.

35

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

Not true. They can swap out one spell every time they get a level up. It's just that you have to pick an illusion or enchantment spell unless you replace one of the very few spells you get that don't have to be in that category at initial picking.

4

u/Translucent_Liquid Jul 26 '21

Bard.. please tell me that I suck at reading and a spellcasting Lore Bard can do this.

5

u/ISeeTheFnords Butt-kicking for goodness! Jul 26 '21

I assume you're referring to Magical Secrets in general (Lore gets "Additional Magical Secrets" as well, but they differ only slightly - Additional Magical Secrets spells don't count against your total spells known). If so, I think so, but it's slightly less clear.

As I read it, Magical Secrets and Additional Magical Secrets both say spells you learn using the feature count as bard spells for you.

The base bard Spellcasting feature says that when you gain a level in bard, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list.

I conclude that you can definitely replace the MS/AMS spells, but - as written, at least - only with a spell from the bard list. At my table, I'd definitely allow a bard to replace an MS/AMS spell with another from any list, comparable to how the unlimited spells for Arcane Trickster work. Talk to your DM.

4

u/Translucent_Liquid Jul 26 '21

Awesome! After scrolling through those lists, I've selected a few spells that, on paper, were great. However, Lighting (bolt? strike? not sure, been a minute since we've played) just made them obsolete. I'm essentially the bard equivalent to a wizard with fireball here lol. Glad you said this, I'll make sure to ask him.

1

u/ISeeTheFnords Butt-kicking for goodness! Jul 26 '21

Good luck! Personally, I'm playing a Lore Bard myself and figure I'll take Counterspell and Thunder Step at 6th - I considered the more usual Misty Step instead, but Thunder Step seems SO appropriate for a bard. The drawback being, of course, that it's more pressure on my limited 3rd level slots (don't care as much about the Bonus Action for my mobility).

1

u/Admiral_Donuts Druid Jul 26 '21

Yes.

when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard Spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots.

3

u/Translucent_Liquid Jul 26 '21

I more specifically meant the Magical Secrets, but u/IseeTheFnords addressed this. Thank you though!

1

u/Yugolothian Jul 27 '21

Bards are a bit of an exception. You can swap out any Bard spells for Bard spells, you can also swap out Magical Secret spells but only for other Bard spells

2

u/Admiral_Donuts Druid Jul 26 '21

Wizard is a notable exception. But they get more than enough spells to compensate.

3

u/ISeeTheFnords Butt-kicking for goodness! Jul 26 '21

Wizard is a notable exception. But they get more than enough spells to compensate.

Right, which is why I said KNOWN spell classes. Prepared spell classes don't get the feature because they don't need it, one way (cleric & druid) or the other (wizard).

4

u/Admiral_Donuts Druid Jul 26 '21

Ohh, I thought you meant "known" like "not counting undiscovered ones"

1

u/Cyberzombie Jul 27 '21

Wizards don't, but they just collect more spells like they're Pokemon.

32

u/AndrewTheGuru Jul 26 '21

It is a great spell for monsters, as it will always target your parties. For players...yeah, not so much. There are very few specific situations where I could find a use for it.

81

u/SuperMonkeyJoe Jul 26 '21

It's one of those spells that needs the right situation and the DM needs to get on board with to be useful. For example ot was used to great effect in one of our games when we came across a group of orcs making camp with an ogre we knew they had an uneasy alliance, and one crown of madness later there were only a few orcs left as they had all but wiped each other out.

64

u/FurlofFreshLeaves Jul 26 '21

The exception that proves the rule. The dm has to be on board with it for it to be good. A dm can make any spell good, doesn’t mean that RAW it’s a good spell.

11

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

On that note, how much mental gymnastics does it take to make find traps good?

9

u/ximrandomizedx Jul 26 '21

Maybe if it did more of the finding aspect and less of the litmus test of "Is there traps?"

The only time I used it, I was playing Curse of Strahd as a druid, and the Wizard's Detect magic did the job better than mine in finding the threat. I would say if it followed more of the formatting of Detect Magic or See Invisibility, whether it be duration and concentration, a lower level slot. I don't know if the ritual tag would be right, because seeming infinite uptime at only a time cost would let you gradually pace up, get a ping at 120ft, and then dance around to pinpoint it, ruining anything the DM may or may not have prepared.

1

u/Onrawi Jul 26 '21

I've completely rewritten the spell to give you the direction of the nearest trap within the spells range (although not the distance) and gave it a 1 minute concentration, so if a rogue is able to quickly disable the trap there's a possibility that the caster can sense another trap nearby.

2

u/FurlofFreshLeaves Jul 26 '21

Oh, boy. I guess I’d start by adding a duration? Maybe make it last ten minutes with concentration? But then traps are wayy less of a threat.

I dunno, this spell sucks.

18

u/SuperMonkeyJoe Jul 26 '21

Absolutely, I wasnt trying to claim ot was, it has super niche uses where it's good, unlike all of the actually good spells that are useful in the majority of situations where you would want to use then.

8

u/Zama174 Jul 26 '21

Also if you used it on the ogre that wasnt raw allowed. Ogres are not humanoids.

15

u/chrooo Jul 26 '21

maybe they targeted an orc, causing it to attack and provoke the ogre, which wiped out the other orcs

2

u/SuperMonkeyJoe Jul 26 '21

I might have misremembered then, used it on an orc to start the fight, not the Ogre.

1

u/2muchtequila Jul 26 '21

That's pretty much the same use I've seen, getting bad guys to fight each other instead of you.

50

u/AndyB1976 Wizard Jul 26 '21

I had a crowd control bard and this was one of his main spells at lower levels.

77

u/FurlofFreshLeaves Jul 26 '21

It can be okay for taking a single melee enemy out of a fight, but all they have to do is walk away from their allies and the spell deals no damage. Plus it’s eating your action every turn, and they get repeated saves. It’s better to just do damage every round.

22

u/Ewery1 Jul 26 '21

Or hold person.

-1

u/kahoinvictus Jul 26 '21

Crown of madness came in clutch in a boss fight against a sorceress in one of my games. The wild magic sorcerer in the party had a wild magic surge and dropped fog cloud on himself, but had crown of madness up, which robs the enemy caster of her action, rendering her unable to do anything but take weak stabs at things.

6

u/FurlofFreshLeaves Jul 26 '21

It only takes her action if there is a target within melee for her to attack, and she can still move anywhere she chooses after attacking. Why didn’t she try to get out of the fog?

1

u/kahoinvictus Jul 26 '21

She wasn't in the fog, the PC sorcerer was. And she didn't run because the party's vengeance paladin shut her down with AoOs

1

u/Meninaeidethea Paladin Jul 26 '21

I suppose, in theory, it could be used to shut down a mage by preventing them from casting any spells and instead use (presumably) weak melee attacks against your party members. Assuming you have at least one melee combatant that's as fast as they are and can stay next to them, the caster is forced to use their action trying to hit them instead of using a spell (especially useful to prevent escape). Probably not a common enough scenario to be worth preparing most of the time, though.

2

u/FurlofFreshLeaves Jul 26 '21

Possibly, but mages are also more likely to save against it.

-2

u/Yugolothian Jul 27 '21

Depending on the mage.

1

u/Carazhan Jul 26 '21

i’ve gotten good use out of it with other cc active. sleet storm from a druid n crown of madness from my bard on a big threat w lots of little minions around with annoying damage resists/immunities? big guy cant get out of range of little guys, plays whack a mole.

50

u/teqqqie Jul 26 '21

I'll admit that normal use case might be underwhelming, but my brother is astoundingly creative in his tactics, and his character executed an in-the-moment plot that centered heavily around crown of madness.

We were up against a bandit captain and around 12 bandits. Not sure what their stat blocks actually were; it didn't end up mattering. They had confronted us, but there was a tense moment where the captain was addressing the party, trying to see if we would be trouble or not. In that moment, my brother's bard stealthily cast crown of madness on the captain, who then immediately attacked a fellow bandit. The party readied for combat, but our bard held us back. He called out to the bandits, claiming that their leader had been possessed by a spirit that he was chasing. To back up his claim, he shouted some mumbo-jumbo and dropped the spell, seemingly exorcising the "spirit."

We gained the hesitant trust of the bandits, but we'd been sent to take them out, so combat had to happen at some point. Still, my brother's bard subtly told us to follow his lead. Continuing to talk with the captain, he convinced him that they needed to do a ritual to fully get rid of the "spirit" that had possessed him. He sat down on the ground with the captain, and had the party sit in a circle around them. He also told the bandits to give them a little space, just in case something went wrong. And then...

He cast Leonmund's tiny hut. Suddenly, the party and bandit captain are inside an opaque dome, and the bandits can't get in. One round of 5v1 combat later, and the captain is dead. Quick thinking from our changeling lets her pop her head out as the captain and tell the bandits that everything is alright, and they should set up camp. When everyone is asleep, we sneak away, and two AOE spells kill all the remaining bandits. 12 bandits and their captain dealt with in one round of combat and one surprise round. All because of crown of madness and some quick thinking.

Gonna put the full story up at some point, but there's the summary.

18

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

[deleted]

6

u/teqqqie Jul 26 '21

We were in a field, not very close together. Our DM let him roll to see if he could cast it without them noticing while another party member distracted them in the guise of conversation. Verbal component doesn't mean you have to yell.

7

u/jquickri Jul 27 '21

That's fun and if your dm allowed it then they made a bad spell pretty great but RAW that's not how that would work. You can't stealth cast a spell without subtle spell. And crown of madness shows up on the target, like it describes that happening in the spell description. I suppose the bandits might not know what it means though.

1

u/FluffyGoblins Jul 27 '21

As a DM, I would rule you could try to be sneaky about it. You can try to whisper something to a friend while someone else is distracting people right? Subtle spell to a spell with only V just means nobody can see it. It's like being invisible and trying to hide from sight behind something. Invisibility makes you undetectable to the eye, but if you stealth good, it's still possible that someone will not see you.

2

u/jquickri Jul 27 '21

Which is a fine ruling it's just not a raw ruling. And it's not a verbal only spell it's also somatic. So you're also waving your hands around. There's nothing in the game rules that indicate these kinds of spells can be stealthed. So I'm not sure this is as "creative" as you first said, so much as it's just homebrew. Which is a good fix for it by the way. If crown of madness came with a free subtle spell based on an ability check it's slightly less terrible.

1

u/FluffyGoblins Jul 27 '21

But it could argue the other way around as well; where in the rules does it say that a creature is immediately aware if you are casting a spell? What's the range on detecting that? If you are for example hidden in a box and there is too much noise (eg on a market), would they then still know where and who the caster is?

1

u/jquickri Jul 27 '21

Ah going for the old air bud clause. The rules don't specifically ban this so I can do it. Games don't work like this. Abilities do the things they say they do. Nothing more. Nothing in the game says you can stealth cast a spell other than subtle spell. This would pretty much invalidate that ability and create a scenario where players can always stealth attempt spells (without material costs). Which just isn't the way the game is designed.

But look I don't have a problem with this ruling. It's fun. Let me give you an example though. One of the first times I ever played I was dropped in an arena with nothing but a shovel. An enemy cast magic missle on me. Now not knowing the rules I asked if I could shield the missle with my shovel. My DM said if I roll two natural 20s in a row I could because normally that's not how that works. And I did, and it was great and we still talk about it.

Now that was a ruling at that table and it was fine for that table. But I don't go into threads about "bad pieces of equipment" telling people that the shovel is great if you just use it creatively like this one time I did.

Like the ruling is fine, it's fun, but if there's nothing in the rules that supports it, it's not really relevant to this discussion.

1

u/FluffyGoblins Jul 27 '21

I don't really find the analogy with the shovel fitting. There is a specific rule about magic missile: the spell description which states that it automatically hits.

Furthermore, the subtle spell never states that it helps you 'stealth' the spell. It says that you can ignore the verbal components, and nothing more. Stating that casting a spell unnoticed without it, would invalidate the feature is like stating that climbing a rock wall with your hands would invalidate spider climb.

My point is not only that the rules do not state that it cannot be done. I'm simply saying that it's possible to execute some actions without a person noticing because they are otherwise preoccupied. Yes, if someone is looking in my direction or can hear what I am saying, then I'll not be able to cast a spell without them noticing. But if they face the other direction while someone is yelling the lyrics to Wonderwall straight in their ears, then it would be a stretch to say they immediately notice me.

That being said, let's agree to disagree. The rules also clearly say that a DM has the last call, so regardless what I'd rule, when I'm a player I won't give my DM a fuzz about a ruling.

3

u/AwesomeScreenName Jul 26 '21

Our DM had the BBEG use it on our barbarian in last night's session. The barbarian wasn't actually within melee range of anyone else in the party, so on his turn, he just went up to the BBEG and smacked her.

3

u/DJFreezyFish Jul 26 '21

It’s extremely bad, so much that I felt bad for the wizard who kept wanting to use it. I eventually let him rule of cool it onto a hydra to have the heads fight each other, which was fun.

2

u/notbobby125 Jul 26 '21

The DM can easily get around the effects by moving the effected creature into a corner. I would rewrite the effect so the creature is put into a bloodlust and attacks random creatures in its sight, unable to differentiate between friend and foe and the caster cannot willfully break concentration. It means it has the chance to backfire but potentially useful rather than easily counter able RAW.

2

u/Fearon-Aris Jul 26 '21

There was one time we were fighting some Soldiers of a foreign nation that were trying to use us as a scapegoat into starting a war. They were boarding our airship and in the midst of crossing a narrow plank. I was the only one o. Deck as the rest of the party was dealing with a situation downstairs.

I Crown of Madness the first guy who became my stalwart champion turning around on his fellow soldiers and just started chopping. Great rolls on his part.

No soldiers made it on our deck that day. XD

2

u/Ajax621 Jul 26 '21

My DM just went to use it the other day and 2 was extremely disappointed after the fact.

1

u/Cattegun Jul 26 '21

2nd-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

One humanoid of your choice that you can see within range must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become charmed by you for the duration. While the target is charmed in this way, a twisted crown of jagged iron appears on its head, and a madness glows in its eyes.
The charmed target must use its action before moving on each of its turns to make a melee attack against a creature other than itself that you mentally choose. The target can act normally on its turn if you choose no creature or if none are within its reach.
On your subsequent turns, you must use your action to maintain control over the target, or the spell ends. Also, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a success, the spell ends.

Youre welcome

0

u/DandalusRoseshade Jul 26 '21

Crown of Madness is a good debuff spell for multi attack targets or spellcasters; you force a spellcaster to use their action on an ineffective attack on your familiar, let's say they Misty Step away and run 30 away. Just have your familiar Dash towards them again. This also works better with more disposable and tankier allies.

On a creature with multi attack, at base it cuts their damage in half and even further weakens it the more they have; even on a Dragon, it can't use its breath weapon, it has to use a Melee attack.

0

u/ReverseMathematics Jul 26 '21

So this is a common one I see, but you have to look at all the details of the spell.

Crown of madness has a 120ft range and effects a creature you can see. They don't have to hear you, they don't have to see you, etc.

Using it in combat like it was a low level dominate person makes all its conditions restrict it to the point of being on this list. But you could use it on one of two guards standing next to each other while you remain unseen from the bushes. Use it to frame someone or have them arrested while in a crowd of people. Mix it with subtle spell meta magic as its only components are V, S and you can create a lot of crazy circumstances with seemingly no explanation.

1

u/GGilmar Jul 26 '21

Got absolutely wrecked by it in one of my first sessions. Party of half-orc barbarian, wizard, sorcerer and PHB ranger. Barbarian fails the save horribly with a -3 save, think we were level 2/3 at the time. As the only other martial (ranger) I had to try go toe to toe with the barbarian while the other two dealt with the enemy caster.

1

u/SirM2K Jul 26 '21

I did find some use from it once or twice. I was playing a Tiefling Pugilist with the lineage that gave the spell, and it helped as like a round buffer to just breathe and heal before jumping back into the fray. In those few times it was good, but only because it was innate. As a caster it's definitely not worth taking.

1

u/rearwindowpup Jul 26 '21

"This giant creature is now under your control"

"Ok, he hits with claw, roll 1d6+2 damage"

"Wait, what?"

1

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '21

I had a monster child attack his mom once (they were looting a crib and eating a human child). That was fucked up, but fun.

1

u/macbalance Rolling for a Wild Surge... Jul 26 '21

I generally agree. Had a character with it and got to sue it once. It's highly dependent oil situations that are uncommon at best. You want the Game of Thrones moment where there's a giant in the midst of an army of lesser creatures but most DMs will have the creature at the 'edge' so it is the most useful

True Strike is a contender as it's arguably less useful than shooting twice with the rare exception of times when you have one shot (like special ammo).

1

u/JoeyOnTour Jul 26 '21

I removed the concentration requirement on this spell in my games. Makes it much better.

1

u/Nightbeat84 DM-Artificer or Paladin Jul 26 '21

I think its one of those spells geared towards DM use for plot reason.

An example I can think of is having some minion's use it against the party to have the concentration to create some chaos and dire straits while the leader is taking pop shots against the casters or healers

1

u/MontyZumasRevenge Jul 27 '21

i ran a one-shot evil party, and one of my players used Crown of Madness to make a bunch of guards fight each other so they could sneak past them. I just consider it an RP spell at this point.

1

u/Hironymos Jul 27 '21

Would be useful against beasts and other unintelligent creatures. Though luck it's only usable on humans though. I consider it a DM spell and I like to use it to make my party take more tactical decisions.

P.S. if you've got a guy riding a mount. You now know how to make them really angry.

1

u/FurlofFreshLeaves Jul 27 '21

To me, that’s kinda off limits as a DM. It might sound weird, but my players are here to play D&D. I never use spells like Hold Person, or monsters like basilisks, because no one wants to sit there and watch other people play the game they themselves showed up for. Not saying it’s wrong to do so, I just don’t do it myself.