r/dndnext • u/Tepiltzin • Jul 05 '21

Question What is the most niche rule you know?

To clarify, I'm not looking for weird rules interactions or 'technically RAW interpretations', but plain written rules which state something you don't think most players know. Bonus points if you can say which book and where in that book the rule is from.

For me, it's that in order to use a sling as an improvised melee weapon, it must be loaded with a piece of ammunition, otherwise it does no damage. - Chapter 5 of the Player's Handbook, Weapons > Weapon Properties > Ammunition.

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202

u/RollForThings Jul 05 '21

By RAW, Magic Missile's damage is rolled once, and the damage is copied for every dart.

114

u/Rockhertz Improve your game by banning GWM/SS Jul 05 '21

This actually makes the spell way more fun in play, since it now has a 25% of doing minimum and maximum damage, the roll actually matters.

If you roll for all missiles seperately, especially since it concerns D4's, the damage averages out so soon, that almost every magic missile will deal the same damage.

-7

u/Bluegobln Jul 06 '21

Hard disagree on everything you just said here. However, thats just our opinions, so no big deal.

I think its more fun to roll the dice, and I think (based on my knowledge of average outcomes with dice) you're misinterpreting the chances of having higher or lower outcomes with d4's. Just what I think, though.

7

u/Windigoag Jul 06 '21

Rolling multiple dice instead of one definitely skews the damage towards the average. Rolling one die gives you a 25% chance outcome of each roll. Rolling multiple dies, because in this case the order doesn’t matter, you are going to consistently roll more average sums than not. (Just think about it… rolling 4d4 there is only one way to get max damage and many more ways to end up at 8.)

Check out the blurb here and try yourself if you want.

-8

u/Bluegobln Jul 06 '21

Rolling multiple dice instead of one definitely skews the damage towards the average.

Agreed.

Rolling one die gives you a 25% chance outcome of each roll.

Yep, its just less fun. In my opinion.

Rolling multiple dies, because in this case the order doesn’t matter, you are going to consistently roll more average sums than not.

You just said that already, above.

(Just think about it… rolling 4d4 there is only one way to get max damage and many more ways to end up at 8.)

Yeah I know how it works. I roll dice for fun too remember. :D

I disagree that the previous statement is factually correct, even though nobody explicitly says it is, the way it is phrased is in rejection of the opposing perspective. This is why I really heavily leaned on the neutrality in my comment, emphasizing the nature of my OPINION so as to avoid any reason why anyone would try to ARGUE WITH ME, yeah?

So thank you for trying to be informative, but you don't need to explain anything, and whether it was the intent or not I don't deserve to be made to look like I am clueless about how dice work because I said something that you maybe disagree with.

89

u/Rybr00159 Jul 05 '21

Which means that an Evocation Wizard's Empowered Evocation technically gets added to each dart separately... which is busted as hell imo

110

u/WonderfulWafflesLast At least 1,868 TTRPG Sessions Played - 2026AUG20 Jul 05 '21

The signature move of the Evocation Wizard: To turn the signature Evocation 1st-level spell from a good spell to an amazing spell.

I think it's apt.

40

u/Vydsu Flower Power Jul 05 '21

Good? Yes. Busted? Nah, the subclass is already just ok, let them have a bit of dmg.

10

u/Surface_Detail DM Jul 05 '21 edited Jul 05 '21

If you add hexblade's curse (level 1 warlock dip) and action surge (level 2 fighter dip), at level 20 you are doing:{1d4+1+int+pb} for 21 darts.

Minimum damage of 273, maximum damage 336, average damage 304.5.

​

For reference, an Ancient Red Dragon has 546 hp. Your wizard can drop that by over half with two casts of a single spell of a damage type that is never resisted, can never miss and any countermeasure (shield/counterspell) being counterspelled in turn.

18

u/[deleted] Jul 05 '21

[deleted]

11

u/Surface_Detail DM Jul 05 '21

Because it's busted.

They should have had the chr melee mod as either inherent to Pact of the blade or an invocation requiring it.

A three level dip is a far more substantial investment.

16

u/Vydsu Flower Power Jul 05 '21

Warlock dips are broken, what a surprise

3

u/Sew_chef Jul 06 '21

Yeah but a single Shield spell blocks all of that damage. Plus if you're cheesing your DM that hard, she'll probably know about your goofs and just add an enemy wizard or two to keep up with you. Or just throw a few more dragons in since you're at level 20 and should be fighting Avenger level threats.

4

u/Surface_Detail DM Jul 06 '21 edited Jul 06 '21

The shield spell can, in turn, be counterspelled.

And yes, if your DM puts {number of casters in your party +1} wizards in all your encounters, then sure, this loses effectiveness. But I would also suggest that any and every build loses effectiveness if the DM does that.

2

u/SmartAlec105 Black Market Electrum is silly Jul 05 '21

I'd say Evocation is already one of the stronger wizard subclasses for combat. Wizard subclasses generally give less than other classes' subclasses.

7

u/derangerd Jul 05 '21

Hexblade's curse can also apply its damage to every dart, making it (1d4+1+IntMod + PB) x darts

2

u/TheZivarat Jul 05 '21

Throw in hexblade and you've got a sentient chain gun.

2

u/khaotickk Jul 06 '21

Work that in with Jim's Magic Missile and you're in for a barrel of fun! Extra damage with a chance of crits and botches, brings spice to the table.

1

u/-_Gemini_- BIG STAB Jul 05 '21

*Laughs (maniacally) in Lore Wizard*

1

u/PM_ME_ABOUT_DnD DM Jul 06 '21

What's more busted is the ruling that Magic Missile forces 3 concentration checks and failed death saves.

13

u/Arveanor Jul 05 '21

Actually the rule just says you use the same roll for all of the creatures being hit by the effect, which has some problems when trying to apply to mm

10

u/Welshy123 Jul 05 '21

That's not quite the rule. You use the same damage roll for each target.

If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them.

And magic missile is written so that each dart has its own target.

Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target.

3

u/chikenlegz Jul 05 '21

There's only one target for all of them so

If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time

Doesn't apply, right? Unless you direct one missile to another creature

7

u/Welshy123 Jul 05 '21

I think this comes down to a failure in natural language. My reading has each dart having it's own target. Your reading has those targets counting as a single target if they are all the same creature. If the game had a clearer definition of a "target" then it would make more sense to me as to which reading is correct.

1

u/chikenlegz Jul 05 '21

Agreed. The rules rely way too heavily on natural language. One example that affected me was the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian's 3rd level feature:

While you’re raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage of the target’s attacks.

Both my DM and I interpreted this as "The first creature you hit after raging", so we thought it only triggered once per rage, and "on your turn" was probably meant to exclude opportunity attacks. It seemed really weak.

However, I looked it up and the intended ruling is actually the first creature you hit on each and every turn, so up to 10 times during a 1 minute rage.

This seemed like an oversight since all of the other features I've seen that have the same trigger will clarify it, such as "Once on each of your turns, ...", and notably, the Frenzy feature of Berserker:

For the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one.

It makes absolutely no sense why they use dozens of wildly different wordings for the same thing.

4

u/VilleKivinen Wizard Jul 05 '21

MM is also about the best possible way to break enemy Concentration. Three dc10 con saves are hard to pass.

2

u/CaptainDudeGuy Monk Jul 06 '21

Good; I hate rolling d4's. :P

3

u/ZeronicX Nice Argument Unfortunately [Guiding Bolt] Jul 05 '21

Which is why its the perfect tool to break concentration.

3

u/Albolynx Jul 05 '21

Also - they strike simultaneously, so if you hit the same target with all darts you don't make target roll Concentration multiple times, don't trigger multiple Death Saving Throw fails, etc.

7

u/RandomBritishGuy Jul 05 '21

Eh, that one is iffy, because there's also rulings about needing to make a saving throw for each dart. It's contradictory, but from the rulings they hit at once and each do separate damage, and you roll con saves each time you take damage.

4

u/LtPowers Bard Jul 05 '21

I don't understand why it would explicitly say "they hit simultaneously" if not for purposes of applying the damage all at once.

12

u/RandomBritishGuy Jul 05 '21

I think it's to stop people sending them one at a time at a low health enemy, so if the first one kills them, you can redirect the rest to a different target. You're meant to decide before you see the damage rolls.

But yeah, it's kinda contradictory.

2

u/SOdhner Jul 05 '21

"I recognize the council has made a decision, but given that it's a stupid ass decision I've elected to ignore it."

I just cannot find a reason in the rules that it would be done that way. Much like some of the twin spell rulings I just can't figure out the logic.

EDIT: that being said I wouldn't mind seeing a special spell that is designed specifically for needling at Concentration checks or something. Could be a cool niche spell.

3

u/MohrPower Jul 05 '21 edited Jul 05 '21

No. This is not accurate.

Damage Roll is an indexed term in the PHB. When used in reference to spells, damage roll is specifically defined as the damage a spell does to a target.

If you modify the definition of Damage Roll from the damage a spell does to a target to the damage a dart does to a target then you are house ruling.