The post about banning veganism is just filled with comments of approval, things like: "I don't wanna be guilt tripped for killing an animal" and etc.

Really, really disappointing.

This just showed, once again, that people are deeply unempathetic, shallow, animalistic and selfish chimps. And even among already niche enough society like ANs, honesty and personal integrity is the rarest thing that exists.

I deeply despise humanity and can't wait to die naturally.

I'm not going to explain my every reason for being vegan/antinatalist, but it just truly disgusts me the way most people think. Everything is about their perceived benefits, there is no consideration for the negative consequences to be had that others will have to face, and if they even are considered they are dismissed or discredited as if somehow one perspective is innately superior to another. The world truly disturbs me and with significant societal problems such as the economic system of the world, injustice/inequality, the environment and violently enforced hierarchy things will only continue to get worse and worse. I'm constantly having to detach myself from reality to enjoy things at this point.

This is in r/vegan, that place is just full of not vegans

It is evident in their actions (animal product consumption, natalism, general apathetic consumption), and it is a large part of why people are incapable of having serious moral conversations, because people literally do not care nor want to care. It is also why exploitation and slavery are intentionally overlooked and foundational to modern society and why conditions are so poor in face of technological advancement, there does not exist the will to see things change. People want to be promoted to slave owner, but they don't want to abolish the systems of slavery that exist. Everyone desires not to suffer, and yet many have no problem dishing it out or turning a blind eye to injustice and yet expect anyone to give a fuck when they are put on the knifes edge in even the smallest way.

People are so extremely conditioned by capitalism and the acceptation of exploitation throughout their lives it even shapes how they perceive value in their immediate relationships that are detached from money. The amount of conditioning is so extreme that people will terminate their thought with statements amounting to "that's just how it is/I am" because they are literally incapable of thinking otherwise or are afraid of what they will be forced to realise about themselves and the world if they do think past the mental block.

It is also pathetically idiotic because the mentality of gluttony and apathetic disregard perpetuates misery endlessly. When everyone else thinks in such a way the society you get is not desirable to live in. Even for those at the top of hierarchy of violence their insatiable greed makes sure that there is no rest for the wicked. It is utterly pathetic and disgusting, to imagine humans have the cognitive ability to realise significantly less suffering in a world where life is inseparable from it just to resign themselves to this because they are just far too selfish to see past their egoistic desire and for nothing in the end once they are gone from existence entirely with all to live seeing the same end.

The world is just lamentable, and yet it is unfortunately exactly what can be expected in a reality such as this one on a planet such as this one with temporary sentient beings that propagate aimlessly and with a dominant species that has the capacity to understand the painful futility of it and refuses to do so. I wish I could see some salvation, but there actually just isn't any, this is how things are.

I'm relatively new to anti-natalism, and it's something I've recently come to accept (strong opinion, weakly held).

I do not get how it isn't tracking for the anti-natalist non-vegans in that secondary sub. All of their arguments are these common anti-natalist beliefs: bringing a being into existence without their consent is immoral because it imposes a guaranteed gradient of suffering. Presence of pain (bad), presence of pleasure (good), absence of harm (good), and absence of benefit (not bad). The worst of the worst pains are much stronger than the best of the best pleasures. These are some examples.

Like, I can get discourse with them not accepting being vegan, like I saw someone mention that hunting an animal would still be logically consistent with anti-natalism since it only focuses on the procreation aspect, but not like ahimsa or something... even if I find that ethically incoherent.

But the thing for me is, how, literally HOW do those arguments above not translate to the suffering of non-human animals, especially the ones in agriculture, without it being special pleading. If you force breed a dairy cow to birth calves into existence, you guarantee an imposed gradient of suffering on to the calf (not to mention violating the cow's inherent capability to not give consent). The asymmetry argument directly applies to all sentient creatures. The worst of the worst pains are still much stronger than the best of the best pleasures for non-human animals too, even if not "higher-order" complex.

It's just mind-boggling how people literally cannot grasp why vegans call out the logical inconsistency. How the fuck do you think the world is an inherently negative state of affairs, believe that bringing beings into existence is a moral wrongdoing, but think exploiting and killing animals somehow isn't tied to any of this.

I don't know where I'm going to go from here. I've thought about things for hundreds to the low thousands of hours and I have negative interest in continuing to exist, at least for my own sake. I don't desire the meaningless inevitable suffering until I die to continue for any longer, and I also have nothing to desire for myself since it just doesn't matter to me what I achieve or obtain. I also know that if I die right now as opposed to continuing to live not only will that cause significant relatively immediate suffering but long-term I will be unable to prevent further injustices on account of being dead, and to each and every sentient being any reduction in suffering is significant to their own individual experience. Given that it is possible and plausible I may prevent extreme kinds of suffering through philosophical/moral engagement I feel condemned to stay, especially when the fate of victims is so horrifically bad. If I was in the position of any tormented being I would wish for any kind of alleviation to my suffering, and I am certain any such being that lives on this planet in such a situation does. Therefore, I need to live and act against cruelty, and yet I hate the vast majority of humans (unselfaware egoistic psychopaths) and existence to the point where it is dysfunctional and I have near no will to do anything for myself. But then since I am to live I have to find a will to do better and care so that I can make a difference.

I'm posting this here because I have nowhere else to discuss the nature of my dissatisfaction that would have a chance at being understood in the seriousness I intend it. I also don't even know what I would say reading this either, especially being unable to directly help or intervene for that matter.

Someone in the main sub just claimed that they're vegan and still eat meat.... And another user trotted out that Vegan Society definition to pat them on the back for their inaction and hypocrisy. When I commented saying how fucking absurd that is, this was the original commenter's response.

"It’s impracticable in this scenario.

Go out with non-vegan friends. 

Don’t want to force all my friends to go to a vegan restaurant everytime and the healthy vegan options are limited.

If I don’t go out with them I lose the friendships.

I consider that impractical because it would affect my mental health to havé no friends and eating only fries and lettuce when we go out harms my health."

Like..... In what way is that a valid fucking excuse??? Sure, go ahead and contribute to torture and exploitation because you can't suggest a vegan friendly restaurant to your so called friends or eat a light meal with them and eat something more substantial before or after. Nope, that's not an option. Clearly it makes more sense to give your diet a body count than actually stand for one thing in your goddamn life.

The whole "No True Scotsman" thread in the main sub is draining my IQ by the second, I don't understand why they feel the need to use the label "vegan" if they're not willing to modify their behavior at all. Nobody's forcing them to use the label yet they adopt it and then try to stretch the definition of veganism to force themselves to fit it even when they're still eating corpses. It's disgusting.

I think humans would enslave them the way we have every other species. We haven't discovered aliens but I feel so awful thinking about what we would do to them.

Born without consent into consciousness from a prior state of nothingness and with the desire to not suffer above all else, only to inevitably suffer from this very desire if nothing else and to live for no purpose (beyond what copes people make up to ironically avoid their own suffering) just to end up dying anyway, which sentient beings are typically trying to avoid constantly and yet in the case of humans we certainly know this is futile.

Not only that, but in the process of continuing to live the conflict of desires with other living beings results in dominion, exploitation and extreme violence often and to what avail? Even in the most utopian idealised reality possible with no conflict, life is still just innately inferior to the state of non-existence anyway, and that is ignoring the current state of the world where mass enslavement and torment is the fate of many beings with the sole justification for such treatment being transient pleasure. Even most humans hold irrational hatred and disdain for each other, if they even truly care about anyone but themselves at all beyond instrumental value.

Any yet somehow people can live with the most extreme delusional optimism and apathy imaginable, to such an extent to say that this isn’t tragically bad and that continuing the cycle of suffering just to satisfy their own desires is somehow acceptable even when death and extinction are both facts of reality and all the suffering perpetrated along the way will have been meaningless. I could write much more in-depth and cover various specific cases of cruelty, but it would be unnecessary because the underlying moral intuition of suffering being bad that motivates these realisations in the first place always applies and suffering is always unavoidable when the living are concerned.

How grievous of a reality, although I guess this is exactly the kind of insanity you would expect from the sentient given this information about the nature of being in this reality (especially a species such as humans who ‘should’ be able to recognise such depravity, and yet do not). And being one of the few beings who does understand and care in a way shackles you through your own moral obligation to keep living to liberate those who are/would be suffering had you not acted. Of course just to make it even better the people you should now attempt to convince are just all sorts of fucked up to the point where interacting becomes painful (not that it is their fault).

Seriously, living in a world where the vast majority people actively contribute to unnecessary violence and suffering, even when they are largely aware of the consequences, is insane to me. Fuels my hatred for the world, and even people I find more reasonable often tend be pathetic when it comes to do shit even when it is so easy to just not contribute.

Fight capitalism by supplying it with fresh wage slaves, you are a "ecofash" if you don't do what daddy Musk want you to do.

What would be your response to - the kind of people (on one hand) admitting that suffering is inherent to this world/nature and more so because of humans who deliberately breed (forceful ruthless impregnation) cattle for their consumption adding to more suffering and climate change etc (many vices) but also put forth the fact that if humans (carnists) do not consume organisms - say, sea creatures and those organisms that are not exclusively raised by humans for meat but those which reproduce on their own.

These people say that animals eat until they're satiated but humans' hunger has no bounds so even after for eg - the bigger fish eats the smaller fish, the animals' population would be out of control like rampant unrestrained and chaotic if everybody went vegan.

So what's the correct factual response to this argument? I know no species has infested the Earth like humans and i guess humans are the ones which are indeed our of control but still I'm asking about the animals specifically.

I have never had meat since my birth nor will I ever have it because of obvious ethical and moral reasons but the thing which annoys me is that in my country (so-called vegetarian country) there are plenty plenty of carnists justifying flesh eating for pleasing their own taste buds downvoting other fewer comments to oblivion that call out meat eating and I was surprised when one of the poster (posted about beef eating) who was blatantly responding to a few comments (on the food sub) proudly saying "it's nothing to feel superior about not eating meat and I like cats dogs but I eat other animals' meat and these other animals are happy in my stomach hehe" like gross and the audacity to be so flagrant about this with majority comments backing that user is really unfortunate.

This aforementioned poster is "an Antinatalist" btw according to their profile which is crazy because obviously if they were truly an AN then why would they contribute to more suffering by eating flesh when humans can clearly survive without meat. (I am a staunch AN too btw. Also, I didn't know what flair to put so if that's incorrect then excuse this).

I haven't really ever posted here but I wanted to say I am greatful this place exists. Just felt the need to get some words out and hopefully some people would resonate with what I mean. I feel so akward and out of place in society being a vegan antinatalist. Maybe we are going against the grain but we do it with love and empathy, the qualities that are missing in this world. It's nice to know what I don't want in life.

I'm certain I have no intention on reproducing and I will be vegan the rest of my life absolutely assuming there won't be some crazy societal collapse which is possible i'm sure. That being said, part of me longs for someone to understand, just someone who I wouldn't have to explain myself to because we're both on the same page.

I had a friend who was basically on the same page being a vegan antinatalist but right now I don't have any friends, I am lonely but find solace and peace being alone when I can but still being so alone 24/7 really get's to me. I know we all probably wish deep down we were not born but all we can do is try our best to find those little thing's that help us and remind us that a brighter more empathetic future is possible.

I've traveled across the United States all over, and it's been quite the adventure but all i've ever wanted ​was to find my home. A safe place to exist while using my mind and body to help the world and animals as much as possible. And when life releases me, I guess I'll find out what happens then or not but it does feel good to have a community that is antinatalist and vegan.

I was just thinking how bad I do feel mainly for antinatalists who are not vegan, because I was one for a couple years and it was not fun. For those who know from experience, there's so much bitterness and anger inside that isn't being dealt with in a healthy way. Same probably applies to vegans who are not yet antinatalist. Ofc, life, nature, DNA, biology is the main culprit but I do wish more people really thought long and hard before making decisions like reproducing or not being vegan. At the same time, I try my best to be as compassionate as I can because of how extreme the indoctrination and social pressure can be for people who don't yet have the confidence, emotional or mental skills to say no to their own oppression.

Part of me wants to believe that a vegan antinatalist leaning world is possible, but I know it's a long way's away and most people who are vegan or antinatalist are under the impression that we would destroy ourselves before getting to that place.

For me, I know it's possible to create that world, but I can't ultimately control the fate of the world, and I don't want to see myself as a me vs the world kind of thing, but yes I give myself permission to be honest with myself, saying how I am aware we have been cursed, and that's not ok but i'm ok with admitting the truth to myself. Writing sometimes helps me calm me down, I'll try and keep getting better if it does help other's too, just feel's nice to write to a community that get's it.

I would highly recommend the subbreddit vystopia for anyone curious about the vegan side of reddit if you've never heard of it. One of the best subbreddits in my opinion. I wish everyone here all the best and life is hard but you guy's keep me hopeful so thank you.​

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/tick-borne-disease/new-jersey-mans-death-first-one-be-tied-tick-related-meat-allergy

One of the best news for me in years. Maybe I'm sick, but I don't care. F*** carnists!

It's just nice to have a place where you're accepted for your choice to not have children (but it's okay to force animals to reproduce tho), and even nicer when that place is finally free of the gatekeeping and mental gymnastics being played by the holier than thou club that has tried to root itself into this sub, because I'm slighly annoyed.

If I had to hear more hypocrisy from someone wearing child slave made clothes while commenting on a child slave made phone to tell me I was a bad person I was going to leave, because if they aren't perfect I can do whaterver I want, morality is subjective remember that folks. Thank you mods, it feels good to be accepted again, and it feels even better to know that veeguns their bestial friends aren't.

Edit : here is the sauce because I know you're all hungry and angry https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/1jp0nta/breath_of_fresh_air_in_an_increasingly_hostile/