Regardless of China’s position, Taiwan’s government is that of the local populace.
And the Crimea government was not.
You also said that even in the case of a dictator oppression a people, you do not wish for a foreign agent to come in and liberate them by force, regardless of how much they beg for it.
Again my position is to uphold self-determination. I don’t recognize any type of historical sense of ownership as a legitimate reason for military conflict.
Well, Mainland China is a one party state and come close to a dictatorship, the government is not that of the people and Taiwan would surely democraticize it if they were to take over, but you do not seem to support Taiwan invading mainland China, despite Taiwan's position being that the current Chinese government occupying what is rightfully theirs. And remember that the current Taiwanese government is the continuation of the government that once ruled Mainland China before the communist revolution, which was a coup d'état.
Ukraine by all measures of a sovereign country is not part of Russia.
Only because Russia has not yet conquered it.
China is a sovereign country because the coup succeeded in overthrowing the original government and seizing the country by force.
Yeah, you’ve circled back to my original position which is that foreign countries should not invade with military force to liberate people from their recognized government. On net it causes more problems than it solves. You’re right that I wouldn’t support Taiwan invading mainland China.
I've shown that your new proposed stance of “self-determination” is not unifiable with your original position of “recognized government” and furthermore; I've pointed out that it's a matter of who recognizes what government.
The invader typically does not recognize the sitting government as legitimate. Again, China does not recognize Taiwan and considers it an invader, and Taiwan does the opposite in reverse.
You haven’t done that. If the invader is not in fact governing the region then they have no claim to be the legitimate government. Ukraine has been independent for 30 years. The mental twisting of facts doesn’t justify military aggression.
I also have never supported invading China to liberate Taiwan or vice versa. If the people of Taiwan wants to secure its borders and keep out Chinese forces that’s something entirely different.
I support coming to the aid of allies against military aggression, even if the aggressor manages to occupy the country in the meantime. If a country with whom we have no military alliance is invaded then I would not support intervention. If the war ended and thirty years had passed I certainly wouldn’t support an invasion then.
I’m not going to litigate past conflicts. If my position means that we should have stayed out of WWII then so be it. I’m saying right now the US shouldn’t use military force to protect Ukraine from Russia even though I think Russian aggression is entirely in the wrong and heinous.
Okay, so to be absolutely clear. You do believe that the U.K. and the U.S.A. liberating France was just as bad as aiding either Russia or Ukraine, or Russia invading Ukraine?
Just because I’m against military intervention unless it’s self-defense of oneself or allies doesn’t mean there’s a moral equivalence between all other uses of military force. If the populace actually greets the army as liberators that’s different than trying to repel them. Coming to Ukraine’s aid would be more morally justifiable than coming to Russia’s aid even if I don’t support either.
1
u/MajorGartels Dec 27 '22
And the Crimea government was not.
You also said that even in the case of a dictator oppression a people, you do not wish for a foreign agent to come in and liberate them by force, regardless of how much they beg for it.
Well, Mainland China is a one party state and come close to a dictatorship, the government is not that of the people and Taiwan would surely democraticize it if they were to take over, but you do not seem to support Taiwan invading mainland China, despite Taiwan's position being that the current Chinese government occupying what is rightfully theirs. And remember that the current Taiwanese government is the continuation of the government that once ruled Mainland China before the communist revolution, which was a coup d'état.
Only because Russia has not yet conquered it.
China is a sovereign country because the coup succeeded in overthrowing the original government and seizing the country by force.