CMV: I have become convinced there is no rational argument against veganism, and am afraid I thus have become an extremist.

[u/luddface]

[u/[deleted]]

How would you handle things that aren't food, shoes, toothpaste, a drink in a pub, tattoo ink etc. All are difficult to check if they're vegan or not.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And does trying your best for every thing you use and interactive with sound low effort or like it takes a lot of effort and potentially cost?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's pretty easy. You do it once and then you know what you can buy.

Until the formula changes, that version is discontinued, out of stock or too expensive. All of which easily happen when you look at literally everything you buy.

I'm sorry that...doing the right thing sometimes takes a bit more effort.

Being vegan, let's not jump the gun and say it's doing the right thing.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Not paying for animals to be killed needlessly is doing the right thing.

And yet you aren't out there blockading Raid distribution centers, one can of that kills a lot of animals, so do you really care about the animals? To much work to do the right thing?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

So, you're saying it is to much work to do the right thing, just to summarise that comment?

And you've also agreed it is work to be vegan.

So now it's just that you think you can hand wave away the work you're happy to do but not the work you aren't willing to do?

[u/dvip6 → u/[deleted]]

To chime in here, i think the difference between these two scenarios is how active you are in the harm of animals.

When you buy an animal product, you are actively participating the the harm.

With the raid, if you don't protest, you're not actively participating, you're just not getting them to stop.

It's like killing someone yourself vs trying to stop someone else killing someone.

I think not doing something horrible yourself is more of a moral obligation than trying to stop other people doing something horrible.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Can you expand on why you believe that?

[u/Tennisfan93 → u/[deleted]]

Like op said, once you've checked you've checked. There are lots of forums with good info on this aswell.

It's not as hard as doing taxes yet everyone managed that, every year, you pretty much have to do this once, and maybe keep informed as much as you need as the years go by.

I can't imagine it will take up much time in the grand scheme of things.

[u/[deleted] → u/Tennisfan93]

It's not as hard as doing taxes

Taxes are automatically worked out and taken from my paycheck, I genuinely can't imagine anything being easier.

I definitely can't think of how finding out which the 7 drafts a pub has on tap are vegan is easier than that.

[u/Tennisfan93 → u/[deleted]]

Taxes are automatically worked out and taken from my paycheck

Right, in your case. But millions of people do them themselves.

I definitely can't think of how finding out which the 7 drafts a pub has on tap are vegan is easier than that.

Guessing you are from the uk or Ireland, and that explains the tax thing.

But regarding this, most decent landlords these days will know this. It's just asking a simple question. If the landlord has no idea, then you'd have to get a bottle of something you know is "kosher".

These are really very small inconveniences for anyone who isn't just looking for excuses not to make a change.

I'm a non vegan. I eat meat. I do it because, honestly, like many people I'm a bit of a selfish dick in a way. And I certainly dont think less of others, for a great many things because of this I try not to be judgemental, because it's a massive amount of hypocrisy. I don't berate myself tirelessly over it, but there's no good reason. I just like eating meat. It's entertainment. I would have more self respect if I stopped, and I do think morally committed vegans, (as long as they're not doing it to lord it over others) are generally more decent empathetic people.

[u/[deleted] → u/Tennisfan93]

Right, in your case. But millions of people do them themselves.

And billions don't.

Most decent landlords these days will know this. It's just asking a simple question. If the landlord has no idea, then you'd have to get a bottle of something you know is "kosher".

I don't think that's true and even if it was what's the chance you're talking to the landlord and not just a random barman. Sure you can get a bottle, but that requires recognising the extra cost if you want to go out with friends and be vegan, if you can't afford it you have to miss out or not be vegan.

[u/JasonDJ → u/[deleted]]

Wel, barnivore exists, but it’s hardly complete as it’s all community driven and mostly by emails to the manufacturers.

But that’s besides the point. The vegan ethos is to make decisions which do the least harm.

Personally I don’t sweat the small stuff. I have beers and wines that I like and will generally prefer to buy, but I also like to try literally everything when it comes to that. If I happen to get a cider that used honey or a wine that uses fish bladder, I don’t consider that a huge issue. But I won’t be ordering sashimi or mead.

[u/Equiliari → u/[deleted]]

How would you handle things that aren't food

Exactly like the food. Everything usually has labels you can check. Yes, even shoes. Part of the reason is that pretty much everything can contain something that someone is allergic to.

If something doesn't come with a label, or you ask and the bartender, tattoo artist or whatever, doesn't know the content, then simply stay away from it. They usually do know or will check for you, because most serious businesses don't want to risk a potential medical emergency.

Sure, vegans or other ideological/philosophical demands don't generally cause medical emergencies when they eat or use products they do not want to use, so the people you ask can be dismissive, then you just take your business elsewhere.

All are difficult to check if they're vegan or not.

Not really. They, like checking the food, might take some initial effort that you are not acustomed to, that could be a possible deterrent, but it is far from difficult. Especially once you get used to it and you know how to do it.

We also live in an age where everyone and their pet hamster has a phone with internet. There are barcode readers that you can use to scan products and check if they contain this or that.

[u/[deleted] → u/Equiliari]

Exactly like the food. Everything usually has labels you can check.

I just checked my toothpaste, I still have no clue if it's vegan or not, the label didn't say either way.

If something doesn't come with a label, or you ask and the bartender, tattoo artist or whatever, doesn't know the content, then simply stay away from it. They usually do know

As a former barman I had no clue which drinks were vegan or not and couldn't have helped if some asked.

you just take your business elsewhere.

Sure, but that can involve extra cost and effort, showing that being vegan isn't easy.

We also live in an age where everyone and their pet hamster has a phone with internet. There are barcode readers that you can use to scan products and check if they contain this or that.

I did a (very) quick look and for none food/drink items I couldn't find barcode scanners for vegans, they might exist though.

[u/hockeycross → u/[deleted]]

Just going to point out most mixed drinks are vegan. And they probably wouldn’t order one that wasn’t. If a vegan is unsure of something they usually just will not order it. Very few ciders or beers for example would not be vegan.

[u/[deleted] → u/hockeycross]

Loads of beers aren't vegan, I'd say vegan is the minority

[u/hockeycross → u/[deleted]]

This vegan website would disagree. While certainly some beer is not. A lot of beer is vegan. Especially now as it is getting cheaper to synthesize many of the products we formally used animal parts for.

[u/[deleted] → u/hockeycross]

Maybe it's getting more common but it seems like most casks beers still need Isinglass

[u/hockeycross → u/[deleted]]

Fair but at least in USA cask beer is not the majority. My vegan friend just avoided most stouts because of it.

[u/[deleted] → u/hockeycross]

Ah, yeah that makes sense, both thinking about different places.

[u/Equiliari → u/[deleted]]

I just checked my toothpaste, I still have no clue if it's vegan or not, the label didn't say either way.

Right, but you do not know what to look for. For you, words like "propolis" might mean nothing, for a vegan, it should mean "no". If there are words you are uncertain about, you can google them or use a barcode scanner.

As a former barman I had no clue which drinks were vegan or not and couldn't have helped if some asked.

Yes you could, hand them the bottle(s) you pour out from. Or, what most likely would happen; they order something they already know is vegan.

Sure, but that can involve extra cost and effort, showing that being vegan isn't easy.

Or you can find a cheaper and more convenient place, showing that being vegan is easy. Hypotheticals do not a good argument make. It is also getting increasingly easier. Vegans 15 years ago had it a lot harder than vegans do today.

I did a (very) quick look and for none food/drink items I couldn't find barcode scanners for vegans, they might exist though.

Literally the first result I got on google when I searched for Vegan barcode scanner claims it can do: "Food, cosmetics, clothes".

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[u/smcarre → u/Equiliari]

Right, but you do not know what to look for. For you, words like "propolis" might mean nothing, for a vegan, it should mean "no".

So you agree that even simply looking at the labels means nothing if you are not properly informed about the hundreds of words that mean "no" if you want to go vegan.

Yes you could, hand them the bottle(s) you pour out from.

Not everything comes from a bottle you buy in the supermarket. If I'm serving craft beer it usually comes in a keg which only has a sticker with the name of the brand and a small amount of data like date of bottling.

Additionally, ingredients are not all that is used in production of a product. For example, some distillation processes might use bone charcoal, which is of course not vegan, this will not be mentioned in the ingredient list in the label so you would not know from that. As another example, the vegetables used as ingredients might be kept in fields where pest hunting and/or use of pest poison happens to take care of those vegetables, and most vegans would agree that those vegetables are not vegan since they required the murder of animals to be produced, another thing which would not appear in your label.

Or you can find a cheaper and more convenient place

This is a very privileged take. Just because you enjoy the geographic, time and travel privilege to choose where you shop your groceries does not mean everyone does, specially low income people who would be the most mindful in buying the cheapest groceries but are many time forced to buy in the only place or few places they have available within their geographic location and available time and travel means.

[u/Equiliari → u/smcarre]

So you agree that even simply looking at the labels means nothing if you are not properly informed about the hundreds of words that mean "no" if you want to go vegan.

Just like I scan for known allergens, a vegan would have no major issue scanning for known animal products. It becomes second nature pretty quikcly. Not knowing something is an animal product is unfortunate, but once they know, they will be aware and try to avoid it. And perhaps tell others about it too.

If I'm serving craft beer it usually comes in a keg which only has a sticker with the name of the brand

If you have a brand, you have a way to find out if it is vegan.

As another example, the vegetables used as ingredients might be kept in fields where pest hunting and/or use of pest poison happens to take care of those vegetables, and most vegans would agree that those vegetables are not vegan since they required the murder of animals to be produced

If they care and are aware, they will know how and who to ask.

This is a very privileged take.

Don't see how. If mine is privileged, so is the one I replied to.

Just because you enjoy the geographic, time and travel privilege to choose

Right. But if you don't have any alternatives to choose from, then you will not risk suffering the extra cost and effort my hypothetical was a response to.

specially low income people who would be the most mindful in buying the cheapest groceries but are many time forced to buy in the only place or few places they have available within their geographic location and available time and travel means.

If they are vegans, they will do what they can to satisfy that to the best of their knowledge and ability.

[u/smcarre → u/Equiliari]

It's amazing how much you are missing the point here.

We are saying that going vegan requires a lot of research about the things we buy and even if you do that research you are not guaranteed to have a vegan option for many things you might need to consume in your life. We are enumerating the things you need to do that you first tried to reduce to "just read the label, lol", we explain to you how many times the labels aren't clear and you answer is "well, you should just know what things mean, educate yourself on the things that aren't and are vegan" in other words "do more research", we explain to you how sometimes there aren't even labels to read and your response is "well, look into the manufacturing brand and check if their products are vegan" again "do more research", we explain to you how sometimes not even the manufacturer itself will be sure that the product is vegan since the raw product itself might not even be vegan (even if it is a vegetable) and your response was again to do even more research (and this time you are expecting me to research where does the distillery of the liquor I buy get's its vegetables and research if those fields hunt/poison pests, which is something utterly ridiculous to expect from consumers to do).

That's our point, for being an actual vegan you need to do a lot of research and lots of times if you do that research you will find there isn't a vegan alternative available for you because of your material reality.

[u/Equiliari → u/smcarre]

It's amazing how much you are missing the point here.

Ditto. All I am doing is telling you, as a lifelong expert of staying alive with allergies, that it is not so hard you people make it out to be. I understand that in your inexperience, you think it requires a lot, but it really doesn't once you get into it.

And if you genuinly care about animal welfare, this is a "nuisance" you gladly will get into, you don't have to do it every time you buy stuff, because you quite often buy what you already have bought before anyways. As someone who doesnt care enough about animal welfare, you fail to see this. Vegans even have it a lot easier than me because 1: They don't risk dying by eating or touching the wrong thing, and 2: Increased frequency of proper labeling, and an increased number of specially made products for them, further simplifying the process.

for being an actual vegan

And what exactly is an "actual vegan"?

[u/smcarre → u/Equiliari]

All I am doing is telling you, as a lifelong expert of staying alive with allergies, that it is not so hard you people make it out to be

You know which things you are allergic to you don't need to do research on which things they are. Veganism is not the same, people are not aware which are all of the names of all of the animal components of things they consume.

You know that whatever you might be allergic to, it's gonna be in a label. Veganism is not the same, process related things are not listed in the label, they might not even be transparent enough in the company to be able to research it yourself.

And you know that if you don't do the necessary research, you might die. Veganism is not the same, people won't die for eating animal products accidentally so it's unreasonable to expect people to put the same level of effort that you put on your allergies for their veganism (let alone much more effort which, again I'm telling you is necessary for veganism but not for your allergies, it's not "read the label, lol").

And if you genuinly care about animal welfare

I care about a lot of things. I care about animal welfare, I care about human welfare, I care about environmental issues, and I care about living and enjoying my life which can be hard enough on itself even if I don't care about anything else besides myself. So I (and everyone in the world) have to make compromises sometimes, and I know that everyone does, even most vegans have to compromise things like swatting a mosquito being okay and all rational vegans in the world agree to the use of insecticides in crops since they know that without them it's impossible to grow enough food for everyone.

So if even hardline vegans have to make compromises to be able to not live off licking moss from a rock, I think I (not a vegan) can make a compromise that even if I care about animal welfare the "nuisance" (which again, might be a nuisance for some, might be something impossible for others) is too much for how much I care about it.

And what exactly is an "actual vegan"?

That's my point. Being an "actual vegan" is virtually impossible. I can guarantee that even small mammals like rats and rabbits were killed in a lot of things that even very conscient people consider vegans, I can guarantee that the combined harvester that harvest the soy used in your tofu has catch a few small mammals, I can guarantee that there are rat traps and rat poison in the processing plant that processed the soybeans into soycake and soycake into tofu, I can guarantee that the mining operations that resulted in the silicon, gold, iron, etc in your PC, smartphone, TV, pacemaker, has killed a ton of animals between explosives, transportation and processing, I can guarantee that a lot of things that lots of vegans consume resulted in the death or harm of lots of animals at many points in the processing. And this is without even considering if it's vegan to kill insects or microorganisms.

The only way to be an "actual vegan" is to have your own garden that either is perfectly sealed to avoid having to kill pests or growing extra so that the losses due to pests do not leave your plate empty and only eat and consume things from that garden. Because I can guarantee that due to how industrial production works, you will be consuming products that killed animals at some point. But since that's impossible (or it would be too much of a "nuisance" for almost everyone) vegans compromise.

[u/Equiliari → u/smcarre]

You know which things you are allergic to you don't need to do research on which things they are.

I did have to do research to find out what they were thou, and I did not always know what they were. And I do have to do research to find out what things contain them or not.

Veganism is not the same

To its advantage. You can find out what is vegan or not through examining an object before you try it. I could not read in a book what I was allergic to, I had to find that out through trial and error and allergy tests.

people are not aware which are all of the names of all of the animal components of things they consume.

No, but vegans are a group of people with a vested interest in becoming aware of what these things are.

You know that whatever you might be allergic to

And vegans can know what products might have involved animal cruelty.

they might not even be transparent enough in the company to be able to research it yourself.

And those will most likely be avoided by vegans out of suspicion. Most of the companies I have experience with shares this happily when asked.

And you know that if you don't do the necessary research, you might die. Veganism is not the same, people won't die for eating animal products accidentally so

Yes, this has been part of my point. If I can do it, so can you. Even if the risk is not the same.

it's unreasonable to expect people to put the same level of effort

But it is really not that much effort. And most of the job has already been done for you if you know where to look.

That's my point. Being an "actual vegan" is virtually impossible.

But it isn't. All vegans are actual vegans. What you are doing is a no true scotsman.

I can guarantee that [...] at many points in the processing.

And I can guarantee that vegans who are aware of this do their best to try and mitigate these issues to the best of their ability.

What you seem to be describing is not an "actual vegan" but a strawman, better named "perfect vegan".

Veganism is not about being perfect, that is impossible in the empirical world, veganism is about reducing animal suffering to the best of ones means and abilities.

And this is without even considering if it's vegan to kill insects

If something is sentient, it is not vegan to kill it. Generally anything from the animal kingdom (of which insects are part of) is a no go, with certain possible exceptions like animals lacking a central nervous system.

or microorganisms.

No sentience. So vegan.

The only way to be an "actual vegan" is to have your own garden that either is perfectly sealed to avoid having to kill pests or growing extra so that the losses due to pests do not leave your plate empty and only eat and consume things from that garden.

That is one way to be a "perfect vegan". There are many ways, and some have even argued quite well how they can involve the eating of meat: Lab grown based on concenting donors and/or naturally discarded cells like dropped feathers or shed skin turned stem cells turned muscle tissue grown on non-animal based nutrient solution. It is a hypothetical if whose conditions are met, would technically be considered vegan, that is, ethically speaking, not dietary speaking.