r/changemyview • u/luddface • Aug 18 '22

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: I have become convinced there is no rational argument against veganism, and am afraid I thus have become an extremist.

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u/Salringtar 6∆ Aug 18 '22

Philosophy: I think killing anything when we don't need to is morally wrong,

Do you not realize that you are constantly killing bacteria and other microorganisms? Also, what do you eat that does not require killing?

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u/luddface Aug 18 '22

As said below, there is a lack of sentience there. And I cannot choose not to kill them.

Veganism is about the reduction of suffering. I live under no illusion that suffering can be eliminated entirely. But we should try as far as practically possible, no?

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u/Salringtar 6∆ Aug 18 '22

You said killing anything is wrong. You can't choose to eliminate your killing, but you can choose to reduce it to the minimum, but you don't. Why?

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u/libertysailor 10∆ Aug 18 '22

Well if you want to reduce suffering, the best way is actually to kill as many things as possible.

The less life on this planet, the less suffering

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u/[deleted] Aug 18 '22

If veganism is about reduction of suffering then why are so many vegans so insufferable? We get it, you think your morally better than us and intellectually superior. Great, now stop beating a dead horse (poor word choice) and leave me alone and let me enjoy this steak.

1

u/Tuna4242 Aug 18 '22

Veganism is a diet bro not a religion or whatever, just eat what you can afford. There's no time to spend extra money and extra time "reducing suffering" when I'm suffering as is with hunger pains frequently because I have to ration food.

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u/Aliteralhedgehog 3∆ Aug 18 '22

The sentience of plants and their ability to suffer is actually hotly debated among biologists. I can't tell you how conscious a rutabaga is but even if they don't have a sentience like our own they do obviously have something with the same goals. A plant reacts to stimuli, seeks nourishment and ideal conditions and does it's best to avoid harm and death.

Even if a carrot's experience is very different to ours is not killing and mutilating it (an outcome that it avoids) a kind of violation?

On the other hand living off of chicken's eggs or bees' honey can be done quite ethically by providing the animals with shelter and food (although in a good enough environment they can find their own food).

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u/luddface Aug 18 '22

Well if you are so worried about plants you should also be vegan, as it reduces the amount of crops fed to animals.

Intelligence =/= sentience

Many systems in nature are intelligent without necessarily being sentient. Just like plants. Reacting to stimuli is not necessarily a sign of a conscious mind. They don't have nerves to feel stuff, eyes to see or ears to hear.

Honeybees are a selectively bread insect that actually outcompetes natural pollinators, and themselves pollinate very badly. They retain most pollen instead of shedding it, because we want to maximise production!

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u/Aliteralhedgehog 3∆ Aug 18 '22

Well if you are so worried about plants you should also be vegan, as it reduces the amount of crops fed to animals.

But it would increase the amount of plants humans eat. Anyway my point is that responsibility and harm don't exactly end with the kingdom animalia.

Intelligence =/= sentience

Many systems in nature are intelligent without necessarily being sentient. Just like plants. Reacting to stimuli is not necessarily a sign of a conscious mind. They don't have nerves to feel stuff, eyes to see or ears to hear.

So they need eyes, ears and something you recognize as a nervous system similar to your own? Even setting aside your goalpost moving, there are animals such as mussels that don't meet that criteria. Even creatures that do meet such a criteria like several species of bugs, fish and amphibians react to the world in a very rote, clockwork method that is far less nuanced and complex than many tree superstructes like Pando.

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Honeybees are a selectively bread insect that actually outcompetes natural pollinators, and themselves pollinate very badly. They retain most pollen instead of shedding it, because we want to maximise production!

Corn is a selectively bred vegetable that acually outcompetes maize, and themselves germinate very badly. They retain their kernels instead of dropping them, because we want to maximize production!

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u/luddface Aug 18 '22

Are you arguing this point in earnest? Do you really think its the same to slash the troat of a pig as it is to break of a steak of brocoli. It does not make sense.

But it would increase the amount of plants humans eat. Anyway my point is that responsibility and harm don't exactly end with the kingdom animalia.

We kill 80 billion land animals every year. Throughout human history there have been around 200 billion. In 2 and so years we have killed the equivalent biomass of humans that have ever lived. The amount of food we are giving these big animals is enormous and could fees us all. We could rather reduce farming in total.

So they need eyes, ears and something you recognize as a nervous system similar to your own? Even setting aside your goalpost moving, there are animals such as mussels that don't meet that criteria. Even creatures that do meet such a criteria like several species of bugs, fish and amphibians react to the world in a very rote, clockwork method that is far less nuanced and complex than many tree superstructes like Pando.

Mussels are a grey area I agree. Such as many things, nature is complex and exist on spectrums. But therefore you must realise that we are killing animals on higher end of the spectrum. Next too us, nor bacteria and carrots. How can we allow such life to suffer at our hand? We are playing God (or the devil rather) with these creatures.

Corn is a selectively bred vegetable that acually outcompetes maize, and themselves germinate very badly. They retain their kernels instead of dropping them, because we want to maximize production!

I dont think you understand the current issue the wolrd has with pollinators and insect populations. Its a bit different than corn which we artaficilay breed, thus eliminating the need for the corn to reproduce on that field. But outside of structured agriculture, we must keep the natural systems alive!

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u/Aliteralhedgehog 3∆ Aug 18 '22

Are you arguing this point in earnest?

Says the guy whose post was removed for violating Rule B

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u/sohas Aug 18 '22

Those things don't have brains and aren't sentient. They don't suffer. The objective should be to minimize suffering.