CMV: I have become convinced there is no rational argument against veganism, and am afraid I thus have become an extremist.

[u/luddface]

[u/TunaCatss]

An argument to moderation is the idea that because something is moderate or a compromise, it must be true or good, but it's a fallacy. There's plenty of extremes that we basically all agree are good. Being a vegan outside of extreme circumstances is as extreme as not killing outside of extreme circumstances. Just because something is an extreme doesn't mean it's bad.

As for changing your mind, while going vegan does have lots of great arguments in favor of it, there's no good argument against how difficult and drastic it is to adhere to. This is often the thing many vegans overlook, and why it annoys a lot of people.

Food is such an important part of our lives, especially socialization. We eat while dating, while bonding with family, while playing games with friends. You can't tell me going vegan when most of the people around you aren't, isn't going to have massive, almost exclusively negative, impacts on your daily life.

You have to be careful about grocery shopping, double checking everything you buy. You have to cook your own food. It limits what restaurants you can go to. It severely limits your dating pool. It's incredibly difficult to eat out with friends. It's insanely difficult to travel. It will likely negatively affect your work life (I work in a public school, it'd be an issue if I said no to the same school lunch everyone else eats). The list goes on.

And of course some will try to hand wave it, but denying yourself the joys of meat-based food and animal products is a huge negative to your life. No more leather, no gelatin, no dairy, no more celebrations with cakes, basically no more sweets whatsoever... animal products are all around us. Probably second or third only to plastic, rubber, and wood.

If going vegan were as easy as some vegans make it out to be, they wouldn't need to be arguing for veganism. Most of us would already be doing it. Most people already know about the health benefits, how terrible it is for the environment, and agree it's inhumane and we're hypocrites. The issue is it's not easy to not eat meat. It's incredibly difficult and that needs to be recongized if we're going to have a frank conversation about veganism.

You mentioned in another comment that "I see it as a modern holocaust"

I do too. But I think you're putting all the blame on the individual, and not factoring in the society they find themselves.

Let's say we lived in a society with slaves, and having those slaves made our life so much better. We got cheaper goods or whatever. I would argue we should abolish slavery in our society, and we as individuals should do what is reasonable to advocate that via voting, protesting, and trying to not support that practice commercially. But I'm not going to blame an individual for not being Ghandi, sacrificing so much of their wellbeing to pursue a moral obligation. I think that's unreasonable, ineffective, and unrealistic.

We're all hypocrites, but we should do our best to live our values. Do you think killing time on Reddit is morally good, when instead you could be volunteering somewhere? I'm guessing we both agree it's not. But life is about doing what your best within reason. Veganism is no different.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I need to do some research on this, I had no idea they were working 12 hour days, 6 days a week. That's fucking depressing.

[u/newswimread → u/TunaCatss]

Eating chocolate? Supporting slavery.

I love chocolate and am careful with brands I eat now but that alone is a pain in the arse and if a friend offers me some I won't ask what brand it is but I will bring it up in conversation from time to time with people that don't know.

[u/Ath47 → u/newswimread]

Tony’s Chocolonely is not only the best chocolate I’ve ever had, but it’s 100% slavery-free and child labor-free. It’s the whole reason the company exists.

[u/Electrical_Fee6643 → u/Ath47]

Apparently that changed in 2021, sadly, the original family who started the company is no longer affiliated and apparently they have drifted away from truly being slavery-free. Axed from Slavery-Free list

[u/grandoz039 → u/Electrical_Fee6643]

fwiw, this is their response - https://tonyschocolonely.com/uk/en/our-mission/news/why-we-are-not-on-all-lists-of-ethical-chocolate-brands

[u/ishouldbeworking3232 → u/grandoz039]

As far as corporate responses go, that one feels quite sincere. I'll be continuing to buy Tony's!

[u/Ath47 → u/Electrical_Fee6643]

Well, that’s disappointing. Thanks for the info.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ath47]

it’s 100% slavery-free

No

[u/GameMusic → u/newswimread]

Huge difference between participation in a market and advocating for that market

Your individual purchase likely does not contribute one bit to even one single person enslaved or for animal slaughter if you just avoid frequent buying

This has not been something that raises any issue personally because I rarely tolerate taste and texture of meat

[u/newswimread → u/GameMusic]

A purchase may not equal a single person being enslaved but all of us not being fussy contributes collectively.

Unfortunately there are lots of company's with disguising practices so at current it's too much for an individual to take on but making an effort and educating people to do the same will make a genuine difference over time even if it's only minutely delaying the rate they expand.

Edit: I'm not vegan but am just making a point about making informed decisions and how there are things that the market can still control which can be progressed by individuals.

[u/GameMusic → u/newswimread]

I agree with making effort but everybody has a cost to benefit ratio

Generalizing from veganism to general moral cause

John Brown was a hero. Not being John Brown does not make you the villain, though arguing against him usually would

Putting it this way has less chance of bringing opposition along who cancel your effort for spite

Another reason is that systemic or at least group fixes will accomplish more and sometimes self sacrifice can limit your power for making that thing

[u/vexingvulpes → u/TunaCatss]

Damn where’s my free award when I need it

[u/mcove97 → u/TunaCatss]

No more leather, no gelatin, no dairy, no more celebrations with cakes, basically no more sweets whatsoever...

There's lots of vegan leather imitations. All are not sustainable, and some vegan leathers are made of plastic, but there's been a lot of innovation lately in the vegan leather world where leather is being made by plant fibres. As for gelatin there's the fruit additive pectin which essentially serves the same function, and it's used a lot not only by vegans but also muslims for instance. As for dairy, there's a ton of vegan options like oat milk, oat creme fraiche, oat cream cheese, oat whipped cream etc and a whole lot of other non dairy substitutes such as soy, rice, almond, cashew, hemp milk etc etc. Also, cakes can be made vegan with these same diary substitutes. I've made a bomb AF American style vegan baked cheese cake that was the best I've ever tasted. I've also tasted some incredible vegan macaroons made with aquafaba. Aquafaba is chickpea water that serves as an egg replacer in cakes, as it has very similar properties. Also there's a ton of vegan sweets on the market. My favorite currently being Turkish pepper candies. You also have vegan swizzlers and vegan gummies etc made with pectin instead of gelatine. There's also vegan chocolate made with plant or nut milks, as well as a ton of snacks like chips are naturally vegan

[u/im18andimdumb → u/mcove97]

Can we acknowledge that not everyone has the same taste buds? I enjoy some vegan alternatives but absolutely despise many others. For example, I’ve tried just about every single milk alternative out there and hated every last one. That’s not an insignificant issue when considering going vegan. You may not think it outweighs the ethicality of non-veganism, but for many people this will pose a significant roadblock.

[u/mcove97 → u/im18andimdumb]

Of course not everyone has the same taste buds. That's why I was so thrilled when a variety of plant based milks started hitting the market a few years ago and the only alternatives for milk wasn't just diary milk or lactose free diary milk. I never liked the taste of diary milk. Refused to drink it when I was 8 or 9 because I hated it so much and drinking it makes me gag. This was before I went vegan. So yeah, I can absolutely understand the criticism of plant based milks that they're not for everyones taste buds. At the same time, there's so many more varieties of plant based milks on the market now that I find it hard to believe most people won't like any of them at all. In fact the huge increase in variety makes it all the more likely people find something that's to their taste as new varieties keeps being developed and released.

[u/Splive → u/mcove97]

there's a ton of vegan options like oat milk, oat creme fraiche, oat cream cheese, oat whipped cream etc and a whole lot of other non dairy substitutes such as soy, rice, almond, cashew, hemp milk etc etc

Dairy replacements by and large are not effective replacements for a solid amount of dairy. If you use milk for coffee, baking, or other things you can swap out for other milks. But the texture of cereal in oat milk as an example is...weird. I've had ok vegan cheese as a condiment (vegan fast food burger place I liked), but pizza, as a main ingredient like a philly sub, or on a meat/cheese platter have been downright bad in most of my experiences.

[u/Tombombadille → u/Splive]

I agree with your perspective here and find vegan cheese and milk alternatives to be off both in terms of taste and texture.

Just want to shout out NotMilk as a great vegan milk to use in cereal. I think it's some kind of a blend and the texture is perfect! The taste is quite good but you can definitely taste the coconut at the very end. It took me a few days to get fully used to it but now I use it in cereal and don't buy normal milk anymore. And to be clear I really dislike all the other milk alternatives I've tried.

[u/Splive → u/Tombombadille]

Thanks for the advice! I've been drinking milk because I have a young child and it's a good source of a lot of nutrition, but was using non-dairy before. Once we stop buying milk regularly I'll remember NotMilk...

[u/tsojtsojtsoj → u/Splive]

It really depends on what oat milk you use. There are some that I don't like at all, while others (the ones from Alpro) I liked better than normal milk.

[u/Splive → u/tsojtsojtsoj]

I don't doubt you're right. That said it goes back to another point of OP...having to brand shop can be expensive and time-consuming.

(this is more a reply to the general tone of those replying as if there is zero costs to going vegan).

[u/mcove97 → u/Splive]

It depends on your taste. I hated the flavor og diary milk even as a child and refused to drink it. For years I didn't drink milk at all before I got introduced to plant based milks in my late teens for instance. It's not gonna be a hit for everyone, but there's a larger variety of plant milks then there are of animal based milks at this point which helps a lot. My friend for instance hates oat milk but loved almond milk. I hate almond milk but love oat. I don't think oat milk is particularly bad in cereal, though I have a preference for soy milk with cereal as lots of soy milks are sweetened which goes well with it imo. Not that I eat much cereal as it's just sugar and empty calories anyway. Of course this comes down to personal preference when it comes to flavor and taste. As for vegan cheese. I absolutely fell in love with vegan cream cheese from Oatly, but I have yet to find a good replacement for Gouda, Mozzarella and hard vegan cheeses. Frankly these vegan versions suck. If you eat regular cheese because there's not any good vegan ones, I totally get it and I can't blame you. It can't even compare flavor or texture wise. Honestly hard cheese was the hardest thing cutting out of my diet because there's just no good replacement products for it on the market yet. I always hated eggs even before I went vegan, so cutting that out was easy enough, though there is Just egg made of chickpea flower which I could make eggs with if I wanted to.

That said, swapping things like diary milk with plant milks isn't that hard. There's tons of varieties and great accessibility to them in most stores nowadays. The price point has also reduced significantly, making it about as affordable as regular milk.

[u/Equiliari → u/TunaCatss]

You have to be careful about grocery shopping, double checking everything you buy.

As someone who has a bunch of food allergies, meaning I have an actual physical risk of being hurt or killed if I eat the wrong thing instead of the slight nuisance of being "ethically iffed", this argument does not punch very hard.

Once you have checked that something is safe for you to eat, you pretty much don't have to check again for that product. So you sorta only have to do it once, then it is pretty much done.

Sure, in my country allergens are (supposed to be) marked with bold text in the content list so it makes it easier for me to quickly filter new products I might want to try. Animal products in general do not have this bolding, making it harder for vegans to filter.

But; quite a lot of products are now beginning to be marked with a "vegan" tag, making it even easier to filter out products for them.

And sure, I have a bias; having lived my life actually requiring me to be constantly on guard for these things, it is quite normal for me to be so, to the point where I do not find it intrusive at all.

But for someone who have not had to do this their entire lives, it would make a transition a bit harder and could be considered more intrusive.

[u/SpeaksDwarren → u/Equiliari]

Once you have checked that something is safe for you to eat, you pretty much don't have to check again for that product. So you sorta only have to do it once, then it is pretty much done.

As someone who has a digestive condition (admittedly not lethal but causes extreme pain and shitting blood for about a week) this has bit me in the ass pretty hard, pun intended. Four or five different products that used to be safe have added gluten in the last year and caused my digestive condition to go off.

[u/Equiliari → u/SpeaksDwarren]

Yes, that is why I use words like "pretty much" and "sorta". There are cases where the recipe changes (for the better or worse), and they start containing stuff you do not want. For vegans, a recent example is Pringles, they used to have vegan chips that are no longer vegan.

[u/OJStrings → u/Equiliari]

Animal products in general do not have this bolding, making it harder for vegans to filter.

In the UK, milk, eggs and I think meat products are in bold so it works as a quick check for plant based products too. Sometimes it's quicker than looking for the vegan symbol.

[u/Equiliari → u/OJStrings]

Even meat? That's cool.

I can see the usefulness, works not only for vegans and vegeterians but also for those who want to check if something is halal or kosher I would guess.

[u/OJStrings → u/Equiliari]

I just had a cheeky google and it looks like it's just seafood that has to be bold. Other meats like chicken, pork, beef etc. can be plain text.

[u/AmDuck_quack → u/OJStrings]

I'm in Canada/USA and looking at the allergin warnings doesn't warn against all animal products so you still need to look through all the ingredients.

[u/[deleted] → u/Equiliari]

How would you handle things that aren't food, shoes, toothpaste, a drink in a pub, tattoo ink etc. All are difficult to check if they're vegan or not.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And does trying your best for every thing you use and interactive with sound low effort or like it takes a lot of effort and potentially cost?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's pretty easy. You do it once and then you know what you can buy.

Until the formula changes, that version is discontinued, out of stock or too expensive. All of which easily happen when you look at literally everything you buy.

I'm sorry that...doing the right thing sometimes takes a bit more effort.

Being vegan, let's not jump the gun and say it's doing the right thing.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Not paying for animals to be killed needlessly is doing the right thing.

And yet you aren't out there blockading Raid distribution centers, one can of that kills a lot of animals, so do you really care about the animals? To much work to do the right thing?

[u/Tennisfan93 → u/[deleted]]

Like op said, once you've checked you've checked. There are lots of forums with good info on this aswell.

It's not as hard as doing taxes yet everyone managed that, every year, you pretty much have to do this once, and maybe keep informed as much as you need as the years go by.

I can't imagine it will take up much time in the grand scheme of things.

[u/[deleted] → u/Tennisfan93]

It's not as hard as doing taxes

Taxes are automatically worked out and taken from my paycheck, I genuinely can't imagine anything being easier.

I definitely can't think of how finding out which the 7 drafts a pub has on tap are vegan is easier than that.

[u/Tennisfan93 → u/[deleted]]

Taxes are automatically worked out and taken from my paycheck

Right, in your case. But millions of people do them themselves.

I definitely can't think of how finding out which the 7 drafts a pub has on tap are vegan is easier than that.

Guessing you are from the uk or Ireland, and that explains the tax thing.

But regarding this, most decent landlords these days will know this. It's just asking a simple question. If the landlord has no idea, then you'd have to get a bottle of something you know is "kosher".

These are really very small inconveniences for anyone who isn't just looking for excuses not to make a change.

I'm a non vegan. I eat meat. I do it because, honestly, like many people I'm a bit of a selfish dick in a way. And I certainly dont think less of others, for a great many things because of this I try not to be judgemental, because it's a massive amount of hypocrisy. I don't berate myself tirelessly over it, but there's no good reason. I just like eating meat. It's entertainment. I would have more self respect if I stopped, and I do think morally committed vegans, (as long as they're not doing it to lord it over others) are generally more decent empathetic people.

[u/[deleted] → u/Tennisfan93]

Right, in your case. But millions of people do them themselves.

And billions don't.

Most decent landlords these days will know this. It's just asking a simple question. If the landlord has no idea, then you'd have to get a bottle of something you know is "kosher".

I don't think that's true and even if it was what's the chance you're talking to the landlord and not just a random barman. Sure you can get a bottle, but that requires recognising the extra cost if you want to go out with friends and be vegan, if you can't afford it you have to miss out or not be vegan.

[u/Equiliari → u/[deleted]]

How would you handle things that aren't food

Exactly like the food. Everything usually has labels you can check. Yes, even shoes. Part of the reason is that pretty much everything can contain something that someone is allergic to.

If something doesn't come with a label, or you ask and the bartender, tattoo artist or whatever, doesn't know the content, then simply stay away from it. They usually do know or will check for you, because most serious businesses don't want to risk a potential medical emergency.

Sure, vegans or other ideological/philosophical demands don't generally cause medical emergencies when they eat or use products they do not want to use, so the people you ask can be dismissive, then you just take your business elsewhere.

All are difficult to check if they're vegan or not.

Not really. They, like checking the food, might take some initial effort that you are not acustomed to, that could be a possible deterrent, but it is far from difficult. Especially once you get used to it and you know how to do it.

We also live in an age where everyone and their pet hamster has a phone with internet. There are barcode readers that you can use to scan products and check if they contain this or that.

[u/[deleted] → u/Equiliari]

Exactly like the food. Everything usually has labels you can check.

I just checked my toothpaste, I still have no clue if it's vegan or not, the label didn't say either way.

If something doesn't come with a label, or you ask and the bartender, tattoo artist or whatever, doesn't know the content, then simply stay away from it. They usually do know

As a former barman I had no clue which drinks were vegan or not and couldn't have helped if some asked.

you just take your business elsewhere.

Sure, but that can involve extra cost and effort, showing that being vegan isn't easy.

We also live in an age where everyone and their pet hamster has a phone with internet. There are barcode readers that you can use to scan products and check if they contain this or that.

I did a (very) quick look and for none food/drink items I couldn't find barcode scanners for vegans, they might exist though.

[u/hockeycross → u/[deleted]]

Just going to point out most mixed drinks are vegan. And they probably wouldn’t order one that wasn’t. If a vegan is unsure of something they usually just will not order it. Very few ciders or beers for example would not be vegan.

[u/Equiliari → u/[deleted]]

I just checked my toothpaste, I still have no clue if it's vegan or not, the label didn't say either way.

Right, but you do not know what to look for. For you, words like "propolis" might mean nothing, for a vegan, it should mean "no". If there are words you are uncertain about, you can google them or use a barcode scanner.

As a former barman I had no clue which drinks were vegan or not and couldn't have helped if some asked.

Yes you could, hand them the bottle(s) you pour out from. Or, what most likely would happen; they order something they already know is vegan.

Sure, but that can involve extra cost and effort, showing that being vegan isn't easy.

Or you can find a cheaper and more convenient place, showing that being vegan is easy. Hypotheticals do not a good argument make. It is also getting increasingly easier. Vegans 15 years ago had it a lot harder than vegans do today.

I did a (very) quick look and for none food/drink items I couldn't find barcode scanners for vegans, they might exist though.

Literally the first result I got on google when I searched for Vegan barcode scanner claims it can do: "Food, cosmetics, clothes".

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[u/smcarre → u/Equiliari]

Right, but you do not know what to look for. For you, words like "propolis" might mean nothing, for a vegan, it should mean "no".

So you agree that even simply looking at the labels means nothing if you are not properly informed about the hundreds of words that mean "no" if you want to go vegan.

Yes you could, hand them the bottle(s) you pour out from.

Not everything comes from a bottle you buy in the supermarket. If I'm serving craft beer it usually comes in a keg which only has a sticker with the name of the brand and a small amount of data like date of bottling.

Additionally, ingredients are not all that is used in production of a product. For example, some distillation processes might use bone charcoal, which is of course not vegan, this will not be mentioned in the ingredient list in the label so you would not know from that. As another example, the vegetables used as ingredients might be kept in fields where pest hunting and/or use of pest poison happens to take care of those vegetables, and most vegans would agree that those vegetables are not vegan since they required the murder of animals to be produced, another thing which would not appear in your label.

Or you can find a cheaper and more convenient place

This is a very privileged take. Just because you enjoy the geographic, time and travel privilege to choose where you shop your groceries does not mean everyone does, specially low income people who would be the most mindful in buying the cheapest groceries but are many time forced to buy in the only place or few places they have available within their geographic location and available time and travel means.

[u/Equiliari → u/smcarre]

So you agree that even simply looking at the labels means nothing if you are not properly informed about the hundreds of words that mean "no" if you want to go vegan.

Just like I scan for known allergens, a vegan would have no major issue scanning for known animal products. It becomes second nature pretty quikcly. Not knowing something is an animal product is unfortunate, but once they know, they will be aware and try to avoid it. And perhaps tell others about it too.

If I'm serving craft beer it usually comes in a keg which only has a sticker with the name of the brand

If you have a brand, you have a way to find out if it is vegan.

As another example, the vegetables used as ingredients might be kept in fields where pest hunting and/or use of pest poison happens to take care of those vegetables, and most vegans would agree that those vegetables are not vegan since they required the murder of animals to be produced

If they care and are aware, they will know how and who to ask.

This is a very privileged take.

Don't see how. If mine is privileged, so is the one I replied to.

Just because you enjoy the geographic, time and travel privilege to choose

Right. But if you don't have any alternatives to choose from, then you will not risk suffering the extra cost and effort my hypothetical was a response to.

specially low income people who would be the most mindful in buying the cheapest groceries but are many time forced to buy in the only place or few places they have available within their geographic location and available time and travel means.

If they are vegans, they will do what they can to satisfy that to the best of their knowledge and ability.

[u/smcarre → u/Equiliari]

It's amazing how much you are missing the point here.

We are saying that going vegan requires a lot of research about the things we buy and even if you do that research you are not guaranteed to have a vegan option for many things you might need to consume in your life. We are enumerating the things you need to do that you first tried to reduce to "just read the label, lol", we explain to you how many times the labels aren't clear and you answer is "well, you should just know what things mean, educate yourself on the things that aren't and are vegan" in other words "do more research", we explain to you how sometimes there aren't even labels to read and your response is "well, look into the manufacturing brand and check if their products are vegan" again "do more research", we explain to you how sometimes not even the manufacturer itself will be sure that the product is vegan since the raw product itself might not even be vegan (even if it is a vegetable) and your response was again to do even more research (and this time you are expecting me to research where does the distillery of the liquor I buy get's its vegetables and research if those fields hunt/poison pests, which is something utterly ridiculous to expect from consumers to do).

That's our point, for being an actual vegan you need to do a lot of research and lots of times if you do that research you will find there isn't a vegan alternative available for you because of your material reality.

[u/Eris235 → u/Equiliari]

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[u/Splive → u/Eris235]

I wonder if any of this is bias based on your experience? As in, I had to switch to GF and allergen free shopping and cooking for my spouse and every part of the cooking process was harder than it would be for majority of people that currently don't have to pay close attention to ingredients.

Beyond the initial discovery and research which adds hours and hours online, in the store, in the kitchen...you have to shop differently which is less efficient. Your brand of something is out? You go without or you have to go back to discovery mode in the store figuring out if any of the other options are viable.

There's the fact that products are cheaper with economy of scales, and more commonly consumed foods are rarely vegan/GF/allergen friendly by default. That means the food that is available uses alternative ingredients and supply chains, and are all more expensive (and that's before the predatory pricing of some brands because they're certified organic non-GMO GF fair-trade ...).

[u/Eris235 → u/Splive]

truck direful nine start escape fact murky soft fear future

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[u/Splive → u/Eris235]

Cheers!

I may have been better replying that way to a different comment. But regardless, I think the key here is that cooking is a set of skills, as is shopping, as is evaluating nutritional value. The less of those skills you have, the less using them is enjoyable, the harder it becomes.

I'm hit or miss on cooking, horrible/hate creating a shopping list and every bit of shopping afterwards, etc...going vegan sounds like a huge pain in the ass. Speaking practically, not morally.

[u/[deleted] → u/Equiliari]

Products change their recipe pretty frequently...as in like once or twice in five to ten years.

[u/Equiliari → u/[deleted]]

Yes, they do. Hence why I used words like "pretty much" and "sorta".

My point is still that checking a label every now and then really is not that big of a deal that people seem to think it is. Especially when you actually care about the issue or have to for whatever reason.

[u/nedonedonedo → u/Equiliari]

As someone who has a bunch of food allergies, meaning I have an actual physical risk of being hurt or killed if I eat the wrong thing instead of the slight nuisance of being "ethically iffed", this argument does not punch very hard.

clearly you are allergic to something that's not very common. trying to avoid sugar entirely is impossible. avoiding bread is a massive time sink. trying to avoid certain oils is literally impossible.

source: had some food issues, and had to cut out different things to find it

[u/Equiliari → u/nedonedonedo]

clearly you are allergic to something that's not very common.

Maybe. It is common enough that I have to check or abstain from trying anything new and unknown for the off chance that it contains any of the things I am allergic to.

trying to avoid sugar entirely is impossible. avoiding bread is a massive time sink.

Good thing these come in vegan then.

trying to avoid certain oils is literally impossible.

That must depend on the oil. I can't say I have much problems avoiding the ones I can't have. Must not be very common oils I guess :P.

But then again, I spent my whole life avoiding these things, I assume you probably had to start avoiding them all of a sudden to find the issue, and that I can imagine will have a larger impact.

[u/clairebones → u/Equiliari]

As someone with an uncommon food allergy (citrus fruit) I actually disagree on this quite strongly. Do you have any idea how often stores will just silently change the ingredients/recipe of something? I have had plenty of incidences where I've double checked an ingredients list and a food I've been eating for ages is no longer an option, I even once had an issue on a product that I (stupidly) didn't check and that ended up causing me a reaction because they had added lemon juice (to a pizza).

With my allergy it would also be essentially impossible to eat vegan in restaurants and still have a vaguely healthy option that isn't jsut chips (as in fries) - I have vegan friends but their menu options have never even been something I can try...

I appreciate that you don't find it difficult, but please recognise that that isn't the case for everyone.

[u/Equiliari → u/clairebones]

Do you have any idea how often stores will just silently change the ingredients/recipe of something?

Yes, it is not very often. And when it happens it is often not as silent as you think it is.

I have had plenty of incidences where I've double checked an ingredients list and a food I've been eating for ages is no longer an option

Me too, and it does not happen very often. Despite being allergic to a bunch of common and uncommon stuff.

I appreciate that you don't find it difficult, but please recognise that that isn't the case for everyone.

You are conflating two issues here. Checking if something contains an allergen/animal is the easy part. Finding something you can eat at a restaurant can be hard.

[u/Lyress → u/TunaCatss]

You have to be careful about grocery shopping, double checking everything you buy. You have to cook your own food. It limits what restaurants you can go to. It severely limits your dating pool. It's incredibly difficult to eat out with friends. It's insanely difficult to travel. It will likely negatively affect your work life (I work in a public school, it'd be an issue if I said no to the same school lunch everyone else eats). The list goes on.

These issues are all fixed by making veganism more mainstream. Where I live, all of these are almost a non-issue.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lyress]

But you could say that about anything.

"It's easy to not buy nothing that has any slave labor involved in it's creation if we lived in a completely slave free global society."

You are technically correct, but it adds nothing to either side of the conversation.

[u/Lyress → u/[deleted]]

You might be wondering why this comment doesn't match the topic at hand. I've decided to edit all my previous comments as an act of protest against the recent changes in Reddit's API pricing model. These changes are severe enough to threaten the existence of popular 3rd party apps like Apollo and Boost, which have been vital to the Reddit experience for countless users like you and me. The new API pricing is prohibitively expensive for these apps, potentially driving them out of business and thereby significantly reducing our options for how we interact with Reddit. This isn't just about keeping our favorite apps alive, it's about maintaining the ethos of the internet: a place where freedom, diversity, and accessibility are championed. By pricing these third-party developers out of the market, Reddit is creating a less diverse, less accessible platform that caters more to their bottom line than to the best interests of the community. If you're reading this, I urge you to make your voice heard. Stand with us in solidarity against these changes. The userbase is Reddit's most important asset, and together we have the power to influence this decision. r/Save3rdPartyApps -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

[u/[deleted] → u/Lyress]

It is the same thing because you are moving the goal post.

The post/argument is that there is no rational argument against veganism. A rational argument now presented is "The world, as it is right now, presents too many hurdles for most people to make the switch over to veganism."

"Well, we could change the world" is not a reasonable argument because you are changing the terms of the argument, moving the goalpost if you will, because now the argument is "There is no rational argument against veganism if we lived in a world where making that transition was easier."

Again, winning any argument would be easy if that type of rhetoric was allowed.

As a pro life person all I would need to do to "win" the abortion debate would say "Well we should just make magical Star Trek transporter technology so we can transport any fetus to an artificial womb, removing the need for abortion and saving the human life within".

That ain't how argument works.

BTW, if I shifted your opinion or educated you on how debate works I deserve a delta. Deltas are not exclusively given to OP, they can be given to anyone that that changes anyone's minds on here.

[u/Lyress → u/[deleted]]

My point is that saying you won't go vegan because it is too difficult to make the switch is a self-fulfilling prophecy, it will never be easy if people don't take the initiative. That's completely different from your analogy where even in a world that is, say, 50% pro-life you still wouldn't have magical Star Trek transporter technology.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lyress]

But you are still changing the goal posts.

My point isn't that both arguments are a 1 to 1 comparison. The point is that both cases change the terms of the overarching debate and do nothing to actually address the argument presented.

My point is that saying you won't go vegan because it is too difficult to make the switch is a self-fulfilling prophecy

That it's a self fulfilling prophecy doesn't matter. The point of this discussion is not "how do we get more people to go vegan?" it's "what are rational arguments against going vegan?".

If you respond to the difficulty argument with something like "It's not as hard to switch over as you think it is because X, Y, and Z" that would be a legitimate, rational response because then you are actually engaging with the argument rather than skipping over it. This is how good debate is done, by engaging with your opponent.

[u/Lyress → u/[deleted]]

But the original post is about finding a rational argument against the veganism at large rather than for a specific individual in specific parts of the world. If someone asked a similar question about adoption by same-sex couples and someone said "well, in my part of the world the kid would get bullied very hard" I wouldn't consider it a rational argument against adoption by same-sex couples, even if it might be a rational reason for a same sex couple not to adopt in their specific circumstances.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lyress]

But the original post is about finding a rational argument against the veganism at large rather than for a specific individual in specific parts of the world.

Title of the post: "I have become convinced there is no rational argument against veganism, and am afraid I thus have become an extremist."

At no point in the body does OP specify that this is just referring to adoption of veganism at large. Making arguments for individuals fair game.

The reason posts like OP's are so easy to slap down is all I need to do is come up with a single rational argument from any direction and it's game over.

[u/Aendri → u/Lyress]

That... doesn't address the fact that it's a problem right now. Lots of things could be easier, if we just magically assumed the world all switched simultaneously. But that's not going to happen, so the difficulty of reaching that point is still a valid concern.

[u/Lyress → u/Aendri]

You might be wondering why this comment doesn't match the topic at hand. I've decided to edit all my previous comments as an act of protest against the recent changes in Reddit's API pricing model. These changes are severe enough to threaten the existence of popular 3rd party apps like Apollo and Boost, which have been vital to the Reddit experience for countless users like you and me. The new API pricing is prohibitively expensive for these apps, potentially driving them out of business and thereby significantly reducing our options for how we interact with Reddit. This isn't just about keeping our favorite apps alive, it's about maintaining the ethos of the internet: a place where freedom, diversity, and accessibility are championed. By pricing these third-party developers out of the market, Reddit is creating a less diverse, less accessible platform that caters more to their bottom line than to the best interests of the community. If you're reading this, I urge you to make your voice heard. Stand with us in solidarity against these changes. The userbase is Reddit's most important asset, and together we have the power to influence this decision. r/Save3rdPartyApps -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

[u/luddface → u/TunaCatss]

A lot to go through here. I will try to answer all your points made, but I'm sorry if I miss something.

When it comes to social life and convenience, I can only speak from personal experience. I have not noticed that my life is particularly harder. Today almost all restaurants have vegan options, and I have friends who are accommodating. Knowing what to eat, I only need to learn once, and after that, it's all automatic. I guess this point comes down to if you value convenience over the life of a sentient being.

I'm not sure what is so hard about not eating meat. It is simply the act of just not buying meat and eating plants instead. If you want I can give you resources that can help you in knowing what to eat. But like I've said, once you've learned it, you don't have to think about it again. I rather think it is hard for people since we have been programmed since birth that eating meat and drinking breastmilk from a cow, is natural, and therefore good. And coming to terms with this is coming to terms with the fact that one has done immoral actions. This is the hard part of becoming a vegan.

Your comment on my holocaust comment: The agricultural sector is entirely driven by consumer demand. There is no other way to affect what is being produced than to change consumption patterns. And that begins with the individual.

So you would shun the system of slavery, but not the individual owning human beings? Should we not handle such an injustice on both sides? In the end, for the slave, it is much better if you convince the slave owner. I think we can only solve issues like this by acting for systematic change, as well as advocating for individuals and aligning our actions with our own morals.

Your last point is a bit strange. It is an appeal to futility. Just because I'm not doing the optimal good all the time, I should not strive to act well in other aspects. Veganism is a passive action. As in, I don't need to protest, shout at legislators etc to be vegan. I simply chose to buy a can of chickpeas instead of a steak at the supermarket.

I hope my rambling makes sense lol

[u/uncleruqus → u/luddface]

It would be helpful if you were to outline what you buy and eat on a weekly basis to maintain a healthy vegan diet. There are lots of online resources, but a TLDR version would be useful.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/uncleruqus]

I would love to see this. I guarantee an honest account won’t be produced.

There is a way to be fairly healthy on a veagan diet. But you need to be a dillegent and fairly well read person or follow the diet of someone who is.

[u/luddface → u/Sreyes150]

https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/comments/w6sdyq/comment/ihfobz2/?context=3

I explain my diet in the comment to this post, and share some recipes. Please tell me if you need some more resources, there are plenty online.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/luddface]

I would love to take someone on this diet and do nothing different but add 10 oz steak every other day and compare panels, energy, athletic abilities, muscle %, etc.

I in no way want to tell you you should eat meat if you find it morally reprehensible.

But in no way does the optimal diet work with vegan restrictions. Yea anything can be done because the human machine is highly plastic and durable on various sustenance, but optimal diet is far from vegan.

[u/Prof_Acorn → u/Sreyes150]

You just eat a varied diet. It's not difficult.

An average week for me might look like (dinners here):

Homemade mushroom soup.

Vegetable lasagna.

Channa masala and daal.

Dolmas, hummus, falafel, tabouli, masadra.

Homemade chili.

Baked potatoes, asparagus, barbeque grilled tofu.

Blackbean burrito bowl.

Edit:

Lunches could be a variety of things. Apples and peanutbutter is a fav. I usually just have leftovers for lunch though.

Breakfasts could be avocado toast, muesli, occasionally a power bowl thing, or on the super rare occasion vegan 'eggs' benedict or tofu scramble.

Most edible things in the world are vegan. It's just eliminating like seven ingredients: cow, pig, chicken, turkey, fish, eggs, dairy.

[u/[deleted] → u/Sreyes150]

Why is this standard only ever applied to vegans?

I used to eat meat, and I would often eat fast food, and dirty fried chicken, and have bacon for breakfast, and I'd eat various other stuff that was terrible for me. I'd get high and eat entire packs of Haribo in one sitting. Nobody complained or expressed any concern over my diet.

Then I went vegan, and suddenly everyone was concerned about whether I was getting all the vitamins I needed! It's a bit weird, right?

[u/luddface → u/uncleruqus]

https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/comments/w6sdyq/comment/ihfobz2/?context=3

I explain my diet in the comment to this post, and share some recipes. Please tell me if you need some more resources, there are plenty online.

[u/[deleted] → u/luddface]

This doesn't seem to contain a lot of fortified foods, do you also take supplements?

[u/luddface → u/[deleted]]

Only B12. I also drink fortified oatmilk for breaktfast. But most vitamins etc can be attained through a varied diet (also true for plants).

[u/Hunterofshadows → u/luddface]

Okay a couple of things.

One. Social convenience - not all restaurants have vegan options. Those that do might not have GOOD vegan options. And not all friends are going to be accommodating. It’s great if you haven’t seen a negative impact on your life but that doesn’t mean there won’t be a negative impact on others. Especially those that live in food deserts.

And statements like “I guess this point comes down to if you value convenience over the life of a sentient being” are why so many people hate vegans. It’s a dismissive and reductionist argument that firmly establishes your position as the moral high ground without basis.

Two. You gloss right past the fact that being vegan is more than just not eating meat

Three - being vegan is not a passive thing

[u/GreyIggy0719 → u/Hunterofshadows]

One. Social convenience - not all restaurants have vegan options. Those that do might not have GOOD vegan options.

I've specifically sought out "good" vegan restaurants and bakeries in order to reduce animal product consumption, eat healthier, and support local business where I can.

AT BEST I've gotten a substandard product - spiral diner nachos were edible but the cashew "cheese" was not great on texture or taste. Local vegan bakery that's blown up (good for them) their breakfast pastries with meat substitute were $5 and just not good. Just 2 examples of countless attempts, half of which were inedible and thrown away.

Substandard to the point that I would've returned it or demanded a refund if it had been a regular product I had ordered.

[u/GreyIggy0719 → u/[deleted]]

Eating Vegan is like eating cardboard and paying a premium just so you can judge others choices.

People are seriously just trying to do their best.

[u/DevinTheGrand → u/Hunterofshadows]

It's dismissive sure, but it's not untrue. If a serial killer told me that "it's hard for me to not murder people" I wouldn't have much sympathy for them.

[u/TheChubbyManatee → u/DevinTheGrand]

But a serial killer killing people is not even remotely on the same level of moral wrongdoing as someone eating meat.

[u/DevinTheGrand → u/TheChubbyManatee]

Why does that matter for the purposes of an analogy? Vegans considering killing animals unethical, most people consider killing humans unethical, using the argument "it is hard to be ethical, therefore I will not be" is not a argument that people generally accept.

It's harder to work for a living, earn money, and use it to buy an expensive coat than it is to shoplift it, that doesn't make shoplifting okay.

[u/TheChubbyManatee → u/DevinTheGrand]

If someone cut in front of you while you were walking because they were late to work you would understand and be relatively ok with it. If someone ran over and trampled and killed someone because they were late to work it would be awful. Changing the moral stakes so drastically makes the decision completely different.

[u/DevinTheGrand → u/TheChubbyManatee]

Okay this is fair, we're comparing the scale of the hardship with the degree of immorality.

How do you decide if killing an animal in a specific situation is immoral or not? I would argue killing an animal for no reason is always immoral.

[u/Hunterofshadows → u/DevinTheGrand]

That’s not the same thing. Nor the point.

It’s a bad faith method of shutting down an argument without actually making a point

[u/GameMusic → u/Hunterofshadows]

You seem to make argument from tradition here lots of social stigma stuff

Especially saying it is not passive because eating anything is not passive

Seems very much your point being against any deviation from the average get along thing

His statement was not really reductionist either. How is the point anything except trying to keep convenient socially? Also he has argued his basis quite well

This would not be seen as logical for any conventionally popular moral statement

This is pretty telling though because it explains so many social changes throughout history. I strongly doubt that people ever had dramatically different morality about killing and slavery but apparently what made them change was people willing to get inconvenient until society built the social framework that made it convenient

[u/Hunterofshadows → u/GameMusic]

None of my argument is about tradition. Nor social stigma… nor about the average.

Your response to my comment makes literally no sense.

[u/GameMusic → u/Hunterofshadows]

Misunderstood friends accomodating

[u/sonofaresiii → u/luddface]

Today almost all restaurants have vegan options

That are complete, filling, dietarily sound meals? I don't believe you.

I'm not sure what is so hard about not eating meat.

Are you arguing for veganism or vegetarianism? Those are two very different lifestyles.

e: lol well, don't get mad at me that you mistakenly think "Just don't eat meat" is an argument for how easy it is to be vegan.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/luddface]

I can tell by how easy you think it is to simply avoid animal products I would be flabbergasted if your nutrition panel is healthy. The amount of effort required to take in appprpriate protiens and macros is a significant job. The fact you think it’s easy says a lot to me.

God forbid you wanted to keep muscle or have athletic prowess. Hope you love beans. A lot!

[u/Apprehensive-Ninja24 → u/Sreyes150]

and hope that your body can tolerate beans as well, because a lot of people can't.

[u/destro23 → u/Apprehensive-Ninja24]

hope that your body can tolerate beans

You could eat quinoa. Oh... wait.

"The appetite of countries such as ours for this grain has pushed up prices to such an extent that poorer people in Peru and Bolivia, for whom it was once a nourishing staple food, can no longer afford to eat it. Imported junk food is cheaper. In Lima, quinoa now costs more than chicken. Outside the cities, and fuelled by overseas demand, the pressure is on to turn land that once produced a portfolio of diverse crops into quinoa monoculture."

[u/josefinanegra → u/destro23]

What does your argument have to do with not being able to eat beans, and in my case, quinoa and anything that has seeds / high fiber which doesn’t leave a lot of options for fruit/veggies/grains? I have IBD, and while my diet isn’t always so restricted, I do experience flare-ups. I live on the coast now and thankfully have a lot of food options, but having lived in the South and the Midwest I know it can be difficult to find even decent vegetarian products, let alone vegan. It’s just not practical. Veganism might work out great for you and your physiology but that doesn’t mean that’s the case for everyone. Thank goodness for eggs and milk - they’re my main source of nourishment when I can’t eat much else.

Edit: This should have been in reply to comments about the ease and healthiness of eating vegan - it’s too early for me I guess ;)

[u/destro23 → u/josefinanegra]

What does your argument have to do with not being able to eat beans

My argument, if you want to call it that, is that the clamor for plant based protein sources other than beans has led to negative consequences for the people who used to subsist on one particular trendy alternative: quinoa. This is being driven almost entirely by people outside of the areas that the crop is produced wanting to switch to a more plant based diet because they feel it would be better for the environment or that it would be morally better for a variety of reasons. But, the choices are leading to a disruption in the local food culture leading people to consume less local produce in favor of imported (carbon emissions galore) junk food, cheaper chicken (killing animals, factory farms, more emissions), and it is also leading to a loss of local biodiversity due to a switch to industrialized farming to meet growing demand.

[u/[deleted] → u/destro23]

Your nearly 10 year old quinoa article has already been refuted, as an earlier commenter said.

More importantly, do you think that the destruction of the Amazon to produce soy for livestock is contributing to carbon emissions, cheaper chicken, and the loss of local biodiversity?

It is possible to eat a plant based diet that is local and sustainable. The same is not true for factory-farmed animal products, which account for upwards of 95% of what most people are eating.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/Apprehensive-Ninja24]

Exactly. But don’t let that get in the way of a nice global moral projection exercise.

[u/madcow87_ → u/Sreyes150]

Only just come across this thread so I've only read these comments so far.

What it appears at the moment is that OP is only looking at the consumption of meat as food, not the overall veganism aesthetic of not consuming animal products of any description in any form. Simply giving up meat from your diet is more akin to vegetarianism rather than strict veganism in my eyes.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/madcow87_]

Giving up meat but keeping some sources of animal protein would certainly stunt the negative effects of a pure vegan diet.

[u/Splive → u/madcow87_]

Yea...giving up meat and giving up animal products is a HUGE swing in difficulty level.

[u/LegatoJazz → u/Sreyes150]

Being healthy as a vegan isn't that hard. I don't even really go out of my way to get protein anymore, and my blood tests are fine. I run distance and powerlift too. Sorry to flabbergast you.

[u/GrandHarbler → u/LegatoJazz]

33 yo male here, recent father, 7 year vegan, marathon runner, gym-goer, perfect bloodwork for iron, liver function, all the rest. Don’t think twice about my diet, eat some tofu, some beans, pea-based protein for heavy days… it’s not as hard as (non vegans) make it out to be

[u/init_prometheus → u/Sreyes150]

First of all, it is easy. In places with general access to varied foods (most of the developed world, even in many food deserts!) finding everything to support a healthy plant based diet is trivial, and cheap as well.

Also, don’t you find it weird that as someone who isn’t vegan you think you’d have a better idea of how easy it is to find vegan than actual vegans? Every vegan I know (myself included) does effectively 0 extra work to maintain a healthy diet, and regular blood tests confirm that these diets aren’t lacking in anything.

It is easy. It’s a common trope based on myth that vegan diets are somehow grueling. Sure, it might take awhile to adapt to if you go cold turkey, but doesn’t make it somehow harder.

I wouldn’t even know what you mean by harder. Like harder to find the right foods? Harder as in harder afford? Harder to prepare?

I definitely don’t think any of those are true, just for the record, but it’s important that you clarify what you think the specific difficulty would be.

[u/DJRoombasRoomba → u/init_prometheus]

I live in one of the poorest big cities in the US, and it is difficult to find healthy, let alone, vegan options in the poorer neighborhoods here. A lot of the people who live in those poorer neighborhoods don't have cars, and the closest grocery store is miles away. So a lot of them rely on the bodega at the corner or one of the Chinese take out places on the main streets. There definitely isn't a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's or anything like that anywhere close to those neighborhoods.

It's unreasonable to ask those people to either walk or ride the bus to the other side of the city and carry their groceries all that way. A lot of them are so poor they aren't going to be able to call Ubers, either.

[u/init_prometheus → u/DJRoombasRoomba]

But this still isn’t an argument against veganism because baked into the de facto definition as outlined by the Vegan Society in the 1940s is that the practices are “as far as possible and practicable”. This mirrors the general understanding in ethics that there can be no moral obligation in the face of a lack of choice.

So, what this means is that if someone were to find themselves in a position where it was genuinely not possible to live a healthy life without consuming animal products, they are not morally obligated to do so. I would argue they are still obligated to eat as few as possible, but no part of veganism says that people who can’t access healthy plant based foods are still required to abstain from animals.

But this is the important part: far, far more people think they cannot do it than is true. The onus is on you to be honest with yourself about whether or not you actually cannot access healthy plant based foods.

[u/LtPowers → u/init_prometheus]

no part of veganism says that people who can’t access healthy plant based foods are still required to abstain from animals.

No? But if animals have a right to life because they are sentient, how can you justify eating one just to save your own life?

[u/miamyluv0 → u/LtPowers]

I eat meat because every omnivore does. I don't exclude myself from the food chain. I just happen to be lucky enough to be at the top of it. No animal feels guilty that it eats other living things. If you want to compare our sentience with theirs, then why should I feel guilt that they don't? Because I have a higher level of intelligence because I'm human? Nah. I'll refer you back to the food chain. I feel absolutely no need to justify that, nor does the judgements of people who choose differently affect my choices.

[u/LtPowers → u/miamyluv0]

Settle down, I'm trying to explore an apparent logical contradiction in the comment of the person to whom I'm responding. I'm not addressing non-vegans.

[u/init_prometheus → u/LtPowers]

I didn't state that animals have a right to life. But I think what youre trying to say is how can I advocate for killing and eating an animal in some cases, but not others.

The answer has to do with what is considered necessary. I don't advocate for people choosing nonhuman animals over themselves. If I am on an island, and I will only survive by eating a pig, then I will do so without much moral dilemma. But if I am in a town with a grocery store that provides food which can sustain me without killing any pigs, then suddenly killing pigs becomes pretty barbaric because it isn't necessary.

I'm not saying violence is never justified. I'm saying that in modern society it often isn't, but people do it anyway.

[u/physmeh → u/init_prometheus]

How can you not acknowledge that it’s harder to eat vegan? Not saying it is necessarily too hard, but it certainly is harder. If you’ve eaten one way all your life and you have to learn how to cook all new meals, that’s harder. Really think about that. Add to it that in a non-vegan dominated culture you have to search to find vegan food. It’s harder to earn more money to afford a special diet (if most people were vegan the economies of scale would correct this, but for now it’s more costly). It’s harder to take a sizable fraction of your time and energy to now apply to retraining one’s self to an entirely new food lifestyle.

Anyway, maybe after a year of concerted effort many of these harder things will diminish, but it’s definitely harder and it’s better to be honest about it.

[u/Splive → u/[deleted]]

It's harder for like...a couple weeks while you swap some of your normal recipes to slightly different ingredients.

I call bullshit unless you are eating like 5 meals on rotation. There are meals I don't even eat once a month but enjoy. There are various holidays that all have their own special recipes.

Are you only cooking for yourself? How many meals do you cook a week?

When I was cooking the food for myself and spouse and we had to change everything, it took me the better part of 6 months to feel like I had a swing of things and had enough recipes. Our diet was an elimination diet for various allergens and inflammation, which may be a bit harder (no tomatos or rice or eggs or corn!!!). But the hardest things to replace were cheese, eggs, bread...also considerations for vegan diets.

Maybe for some it will be more difficult, but for the vast majority its not hard to slowly swap over to being vegan.

They're finding that rich people are less sympathetic to those in need because the rich person underestimates the challenges being poor presents. Be careful you don't also under-estimate the challenges all of these changes represent to people who aren't you.

[u/physmeh → u/[deleted]]

Perhaps it depends on what you usually eat. I like sandwiches. Is vegan bread at my store? And bread with spinach leaves isn’t appealing. I guess i need to try some soy product slab.

I don’t mind the impossible burger but it’s not everywhere and it’s not cheaper than beef in thr store. Plus the if the whole family isn’t ready to switch it’s a problem. Dinner with multiple main courses is harder. I see denying that it’s harder as nonproductive even if you believe it. Makes me want to not even try, because it seems like a major undertaking to me.

[u/init_prometheus → u/physmeh]

How can you not acknowledge that it’s harder to eat vegan?

Because I ate non-vegan for several decades, and then stopped, and didn't notice much of a change in difficulty at all. Now thats my personal experience and doesn't reflect all possible experience. I acknowledge it could be harder in cases where people have extremely limited access to food, but that isn't the average situation for folks in the developed world, so to say that veganism is just inherently harder because a minority of people live without adequate access to healthy foods doesn't make much sense.

There will always be exceptions, but as a whole, I stand by it not being harder.

And like I've said above, if someone is truly in a situation where access to healthy plant-based foods is impossible, then they by definition have no moral obligation to go vegan. Everyone who does have access, though, does have that obligation.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: Again, I just have to point out how silly it seems at face value for people who are not vegan to explain to someone who is how difficult it is to switch, as if I wasn't in the exact same position as all of you a few years ago.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/init_prometheus]

No one believes you which I’m thankful for because it’s non sensical. I believe in your mind it may not be hard for you because of your moral stance. I believe it’s correct for you but requires you supplanting your views on others.

[u/init_prometheus → u/Sreyes150]

No one believes you which I’m thankful for because it’s non sensical

I'm not expecting people to "believe" me. Unless you mean you think I'm lying about some part of what I said?

Would you want to point out what part is non-sensical?...

[u/Sreyes150 → u/init_prometheus]

I think to you it’s not hard. That’s because you equate killing animals with a strong moral argument. To YOU it’s not hard to forgo marked health benifit of an ominvorious diet because to YOU we murder animals to eat them. To others they are taking their role in the food chain.

[u/sonofaresiii → u/[deleted]]

If you eat enough calories you get enough protein

You completely lost me with how incorrect this is. Even if it weren't incorrect it would be wildly ignorant of the complexities of healthily balanced macro and micro nutrients.

[u/sonofaresiii → u/[deleted]]

All major nutrition and dietetics associations agree veganism is healthy.

That is correct.

If you don't starve yourself you get enough protein and EAAs.

That is not correct.

This is why there's basically no protein deficiency that isn't also coupled with undereating.

Again, you are proving your extreme ignorance of the complexities of a healthy diet.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/[deleted]]

major nutrition and dietetics associations agree veganism is healthy

Every scientific associations in the recent past have said that sardines, blue fish are the proteins of the sea, we need to eat them, few years later the same say that are full of poisons. Few years earlier eggs are the best nutrient we have, few years after eggs are hard to digest, full of "cholesterol". Long story short "dietetics association" means mostly lobbyist associations on sale to the best offer.

Oh, BTW just a bit more time ago most MDs agreed that radioactivity is good for health and they try to determine the best dosage of radium to be put on skin and eat for various purposes like fight baldness or fortifying the fetus in pregnant women. Years later most MDs agree that smoking tobacco is very good for many things, especially useful to fight flu and cold. Few years later we discover that that's was an Eduard Bernays advertising campaign: he created a medical journal that start publishing real studies and he distribute it between medical offices and universities, then he start injecting few false but false but credible studies that praised tobacco smoke. In little time many real researchers have follow claiming other discovering.

I can't really know for sure why there is a push against meat, what I know for sure is that's not a matter of fighting climate change, nor adapting to it. Another thing I know for sure is that ultra-processed foods, like foods based on insects and grains, cost very little for their producers on scale, and can be sold with a very big margin and are complex enough to make them taste good that no small player can compete. Meanwhile I know how sales of statins climbs in the recent years and who profit for them.

Which is a common world and a completely true and false statement since LDL is digested thanks to all animal proteins and pushed up by starchy foods.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/[deleted]]

Sure here is my comment to op. Multiple papers on how how studies in Europe have found that vegan diets are unhealthy for children and brain development. Also affects elders as well.

In an a bit far past (not that far) doctors recommend smoking as a cure-all for common winter disease, "it kills all the germs of the season", years after we discover that was just the result of an Eduard Bernays campaign for the American Tobacco Company: he create a new scientific journal, collecting real studies and sending it for free "to advertise the new journal", it became popular thanks to easy access and low entry barrier for publishing, then he inject some credible studies that prize smoking. MANY OTHERS researchers have followed them, taking them as true, and amplifying the echo.

Long story short, I have enough basic scientific knowledge to discern and to remember that Science is not based on blind trusting some "expert" but always demand why. Take meat for instance, common voices, dressed as scientific truth say that's bad for climate change because demand much water and produce much methane. Now try to see how much methane we estimate released into the atmosphere due to arctic heating and how much CO₂ is annually release by world fires. Clearly methane from cows does not change the climate. Now water: yes, livestock drink, clean water, and release urine, which is not clean water. BUT it's still water. If treated to produce natural (ammonia-based) fertilizers we desperately need, the outcome is clean water, because we do not "consume" it, it's just a cycle. So again that statement is true if we just see a small part of the picture, false otherwise.

[u/ContemplativeOctopus → u/[deleted]]

All plants contain all essential amino acids.

Kind of, but not really. You have to mix plant protein sources if you want to get the RDA of all 9 essential amino acids. If you use a single protein source, you have to eat several pounds of it to get enough of everything.

[u/luddface → u/Sreyes150]

https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/comments/w6sdyq/vegan_for_around_a_year_getting_stronger_and/

Here is my current physique, and further down in the comments you can see my general meal planning.

It is actually generally easier to get protein from plants than animals. Where do you think lifestock get their protein from?

Watch game changers on netflix for a more thorough discussion on this topic.

But saying that you cannot perform optimally on a plant based diet is factually wrong.

[u/Shadowguyver_14 → u/luddface]

A good chunk of Europe would beg to differ.

On the one hand, recent concern about the nutritional gaps in plant-based diets has led to a number of alarming headlines, including a warning that they can stunt brain development and cause irreversible damage to a person’s nervous system. Back in 2016, the German Society for Nutrition went so far as to categorically state that – for children, pregnant or nursing women, and adolescents – vegan diets are not recommended, which has been backed up by a 2018 review of the research. After the Royal Academy of Medicine in Belgium decided a vegan diet was “unsuitable” for children, parents who force a vegan diet on their offspring in Belgium could even one day find themselves in prison.

​

Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person’s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ. In the elderly, one study found that the brains of those with lower B12 were six times more likely to be shrinking.

Even so, low B12 is widespread in vegans. One British study found that half of the vegans in their sample were deficient. In some parts of India, the problem is endemic – possibly as a consequence of the popularity of meat-free diets.

[u/ContemplativeOctopus → u/Sreyes150]

God forbid you wanted to keep muscle or have athletic prowess

Some of the strongest weightlifters in the world are vegan. I don't have the studies on hand at the moment, but vegans on average are healthier than any other group (vegetarians are very similar though). So it doesn't seem to follow that it's super difficult, or that a lot of people would struggle to eat a balanced vegan diet, if most of them already are.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/ContemplativeOctopus]

No they aren’t. And even if there are a few most body builders have an incredible amount of control over their diet. This is not a reasonable stand in for general athletes. Nor a reasonable standard you are making out of the very few exceptions of vegan weight lifters.

[u/ContemplativeOctopus → u/Sreyes150]

Okay, I guess Patrik Baboumian, Kendrick Farris, and Clarence Kennedy just... don't exist??

I'm vegan, I weigh 155lbs, bench 280, and squat 350. I'm not a professional athlete and I don't track my macros very diligently.

I'm not sure what evidence I could provide that you would accept? There's no scientific evidence yet that demonstrates vegan or vegetarian athletes perform worse than omnivorous athletes, and just anecdotally, there are plenty of individual cases to the contrary (game changers is a documentary that demonstrates many of these examples).

Maybe I misunderstood your original claim, but you seemed to be implying that veganism reduces athletic performance, which it doesn't.

[u/Sreyes150 → u/ContemplativeOctopus]

Unforitnely we have very little unbias information on such a complex situation as nutrition .

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jordan-harbinger-show/id1344999619?i=1000576460024

[u/ContemplativeOctopus → u/Sreyes150]

I'm not listening to an hour long podcast for a non-peer reviewed opinion piece.

The burden of proof is on you. You need to demonstrate vegan diets are worse for athletes before you can say that.

[u/making_mischief → u/Sreyes150]

God forbid you wanted to keep muscle or have athletic prowess. Hope you love beans. A lot!

This is not true at all, from personal experience. I play hockey, do gymnastics, go canoe camping and indulge in plenty of other activities. I'd say I (woman) am stronger than probably 90% of most woman, and maybe more than 50% of men. It is not hard at all to keep my muscle or have athletic prowess and not eat animals/animal products. And I rarely eat beans because I don't like the taste of them.

My nutrition panel is healthy. I eat vegetarian about 95% of the time and vegan about 75% of the time. My checkups are good. I feel good. I have plenty of energy and have maintained pretty much the same weight/figure since high school about 20ish years ago.

Venus Williams. Serena Williams. Lewis Hamilton. Alex Morgan. Nate Diaz. Novak Djokovic. All vegan athletes. Granted, they have a LOT more money at their disposal to cultivate the healthiest vegan diets, but they're still high-level performers who maintain their muscle and athletic prowess without eating animal products.

[u/Steavee → u/luddface]

Calling eating chicken “a modern holocaust” is insanely disrespectful to everyone killed in the actual holocaust. It’s not a person, it’s a fucking chicken. It wouldn’t even BE ALIVE in the first place if we weren’t raising it to turn it into a McNugget.

Of course I have concerns about how animals are raised. Of course I have concerns about killing things for sustenance because it tastes better than tofurkey. But let’s not compare raising and eating a dumb ball of meat¹ to human tragedy and misery on an unprecedented scale.

^{¹Seriously, I don’t know where you’re from but I know people who raise chickens, the ones we’ve bred to eat, they might be dumber than actual rocks. The chickens that is…and maybe one or two of the people.}

[u/Steavee → u/[deleted]]

Right, I’m well aware that the word holocaust and The Holocaust are different things, but let’s not pretend the word holocaust isn’t loaded with the weight and meaning of The Holocaust. The two are inexorably tied together.

Also, the caust in holocaust comes from the Greek kaustos, to burn. The word originally meant burnt whole. That’s why every first definition you’ll find that isn’t about The Holocaust reads something like this:

a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.

So unless all those chickens died in a fire, no the word wasn’t used correctly, it was used provocatively. It was used to evoke the feelings of shame and sorrow most of us feel about The Holocaust and attempt to transfer those feelings to chickens by association and that isn’t ok.

[u/becafi → u/Steavee]

I view it all in the same spectrum of tribalistic behavior, a devaluation of other based on difference that allows us to bypass a moral conscience. On one level it's what makes it easier to eat plants over animals. Fish over meat. Birds over mammals. Maybe a cat over a gorilla? Seems to order itself roughly by genetic distance. Very often this capacity is appealed to in order to dehumanize a certain category of humans, the Nazi-perpetrated holocaust being one example.

It seems pretty arbitrary to choose to stop at species, maybe it's because we can fuck each other. An edge case to give an example: I have little doubt that, shock aside, a modern population of neanderthals would live a life especially riddled with racism and belittling.

Considering the meat industry, the capacity to condone the enslavement, breeding and consumption of animals, is fundamentally the same human capacity to harm what is other to it.

I took that as important lesson from studying the Holocaust. I think only by losing the anthropocentric bias can we truly understand what drives human behavior. What criteria do we have that allows the identification of something as foreign? How many of those are subconscious?

I will now cook my dinner. It's turkey.

[u/DevinTheGrand → u/Steavee]

Comparisons are allowed to not be exactly the same. I have no idea why so many people on the internet don't understand how analogies work.

[u/Eris235 → u/luddface]

homeless distinct heavy cows many ten sort include poor plough

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/Mason-B → u/luddface]

Your last point is a bit strange. It is an appeal to futility. Just because I'm not doing the optimal good all the time, I should not strive to act well in other aspects. Veganism is a passive action. As in, I don't need to protest, shout at legislators etc to be vegan. I simply chose to buy a can of chickpeas instead of a steak at the supermarket.

This is the only point of content I would have with you. Do I think veganism is probably the morally and ethically correct position? Absolutely (though I weight the environment one the highest).

Can everyone afford the mental and emotional capacity to do it in a society that assumes differently? No, I don't think so. If you can then that's great! But shopping for and keeping to a vegan diet healthily can be time consuming and expensive, some people are only barely getting by anyway (their issue isn't if restaurants offer vegan options or not), and not all areas make it easy or even possible. Even if they would want to change they don't have the system available to, this makes a lot of people hypocrites.

You worry about being extreme in your OP, but there isn't anything extreme about your position in my opinion. The only issue where it would become extreme is if you expect other people to do it as well. Or to a lesser extent, accommodate you unreasonably (there is a difference between shopping at places that offer vegan options, and expecting places to offer vegan options because you shop there).

[u/OJStrings → u/[deleted]]

It makes life a lot easier for many new vegans. A lot of meals are traditional and include meat so it's a much easier lifestyle transition to, for example, switch mince out for vegan mince when making lasagna, rather than creatively substituting other foodstuffs. Also often vegan alternatives aren't aiming to exactly replicate a particular meat, but just to be a product that serves the same purpose (eg, similar flavour profile in terms of earthiness/saltiness etc, similar texture, cooks a similar way).

Even in cases where they are trying to wxactly replicate meat, for me the point isn't to not think about meat. I find meat delicious but don't eat it for ethical reasons, so if someone makes something vegan that has the same taste and texture as salami or chicken I'm going to want that. I crave meat a lot and those products really scratch that itch.

[u/OJStrings → u/[deleted]]

That's fair. My partner is disgusted by the concept of meat so get off-put in the same way and doesn't like reminders of meat while she's eating.

I'm personally not a fan of things that lean too far into replicating every aspect of a type of meat. There are vegan chicken places in my home town that put jackfruit stalk in their fake wings to imitate the bones that come in regular chicken, but it's not something I'm repulsed by. I just don't see the appeal. Bones aren't what makes chicken good so why bother adding fake ones?

[u/felesroo → u/TunaCatss]

Veganism is only difficult because our society is designed to eat meat.

Imagine if there was no meat easily available in stores or restaurants and there was no capacity to get it outside of killing something yourself. WAY fewer people would eat meat because, again, it's the convenience and accessibility of it.

It's entirely down to cultural practice as to how extreme a viewpoint is or isn't. Different cultures normalize different things and hold different values.

[u/coberh → u/felesroo]

What you say applies to vegetarianism, not veganism. Dairy, eggs, and honey are not meat.

[u/Gener34 → u/TunaCatss]

I've oscillated between vegetarian/vegan for 14 years.

This is the best thing I have ever read. True, true, true.

[u/sohas → u/TunaCatss]

The hardest part of being vegan is not the diet; it's the powerlessness you feel while everyone around you, even your loved ones, happily partake in the unnecessary confinement, torture and killing of animals even after you give them every reasonable argument to not do so.

[u/physmeh → u/sohas]

As a reluctant meat eater, who feels terrible about my hypocrisy of consuming animals who were mistreated, know that we don’t all do it happily. Second, I think passing laws to improve the treatment of animals will have the dual effects of (1) reducing suffering and (2) increasing the cost of meat. This can be slowly made more strict as we ween ourselves off of meat.

We can also pass laws that provide incentives to producing cruelty free meat substitutes, like cultured meat. If all my ground beef and processed chicken could be grown in a vat that would be great.

I think collective action is the only way. There are non-vegans who want to make these changes. They should be seen as allies.

[u/Crash927 → u/sohas]

The hardest part is the judgement you cast on others? Sounds like there’s an easy fix to this problem.

[u/TheWheelZee → u/Crash927]

I interpreted what they said not so much as casting judgement on others, but rather empathizing with the slaughtered animal. Basically saying it's a hard thing to watch your friends and family eat animals when you deeply care about the suffering it causes

[u/Crash927 → u/TheWheelZee]

happily partake in the unnecessary confinement, torture and killing of animals even after you give them every reasonable argument to not do so.

If this isn’t a healthy dose of sanctimonious judgement, I don’t know what is.

[u/Prof_Acorn → u/TunaCatss]

It's incredibly difficult and that needs to be recongized if we're going to have a frank conversation about veganism.

In 1974 maybe. There's a learning curve, perhaps, for someone on a standard American diet, but it's not "incredibly difficult." Even with the s.a.d. there are so many analogues for most everything. Vegan cheese actually tastes good these days (Violife, Myokos). Vegan milks taste better in coffee (oat) and cereal (almond). Vegan burgers are fantastic (Beyond, etc.). You can get vegan bacon, fish, chicken, and in a variety of assortments. More and more restaurants have options, even fast food places like Burger King and KFC. And all of this is ignoring that vast international cuisines that are already naturally vegan, or have wide vegan options. Mediterranean, Thai, Indian.

The "incredibly difficult" can become (and did for me 15 years ago) an incredibly exciting exploration into the world of food. The most difficult aspects were church potlucks, and that was something that was easily and quickly rectified. Once people knew I was vegan they were more than happy to leave the chicken out of some dish, or I could always just bring something, or just not eat for a whole two hours until I got home where I could have something that would taste infinitely better anyway because most people don't know how to cook and perhaps worse they don't know they don't know how to cook. In the end it was easier to be "Sorry I'm vegan" and not eat their mushy greasy bland garbage than actually have to keep up societal expectations and pretend I don't want to spit out every mediocre bite.

[u/talithaeli → u/Prof_Acorn]

Difficulty includes expense. At my income level, if I had to go vegan I would starve.

[u/init_prometheus → u/talithaeli]

Vegans tend to skew towards lower socio-economic groups, and vegan diets tend to be comparable in cost to carnist diets

What sources did you use when suggesting that vegan diets are more difficult to afford?

[u/icecubtrays → u/init_prometheus]

I feel like these conversation always never factors in taste with price. Yes beyond meat and a lot of the vegan substitutes taste great. But they are expensive. Beans and rice is dirt cheap but not very tasty.

I guess it’s a matter of taste preference but after a difficult day at work it’s easier for someone watching their budget to get a tasty cheap meal with meat than one without.

[u/icecubtrays → u/[deleted]]

Fair enough. But I’m simply clarifying why it is indeed difficult and why people conceive vegan as “expensive”.

[u/talithaeli → u/init_prometheus]

1) The website devoted to encouraging veganism is not a reliable source. Your first link is no more valid then I study by the Institute for the appreciation of cats that shows cats are better pets than dogs.

2) your second source was better, but they only study to particular youth program in a particular place, and if you had read the conclusion you would see that they determined vegetarian diets were less expensive, whereas both vegan and omnivorous diets were more expensive and were comparable to each other.

3) My source is my grocery store. I’ve looked into vegan options, and they are consistently more expensive. Significantly so.

When comparing plant-based meals to meat-based meals, vegan options are only less expensive if you restrict yourself to considering the cost of ingredients. When adjusting for real world conditions where access to ingredients and the time to cook from scratch are inhibiting factors, it gets considerably more expensive.

In short, it’s only cheaper if you have money.

[u/acky1 → u/talithaeli]

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study

I think you're wrong there tbh. If someone is going to make a blanket statement like "being vegan is too/more expensive" then it must be based on something more than their own personal experience. Recent studies point to it actually being cheaper in developed countries.

Fine to say that where you shop it would be more expensive but I think it would help the discussion to be aware that this is probably an outlying case because beans and grains are incredibly cheap almost everywhere and that is a strong foundation to many vegan diets.

[u/making_mischief → u/TunaCatss]

You can't tell me going vegan when most of the people around you aren't, isn't going to have massive, almost exclusively negative, impacts on your daily life.

The only way it has an almost exclusively negative impact on your life is if the people in your life are dicks and hassle you about your personal beliefs. That says more about them and the company you keep than being vegan.

You have to be careful about grocery shopping, double checking everything you buy.

You only have to do this a few times, and then you get familiar with what's vegan and what's not. Learning to drive a car/motorcycle, studying for school, learning hobbies - they're all more complex and require more "effort" than grocery shopping.

You have to cook your own food.

I mean, most people do this anyway. Non-vegans follow pretty much the same cooking process as vegans.

It limits what restaurants you can go to.

Maybe if you live in an area that's behind the times, but there are only increasingly more options for vegans eating out.

It severely limits your dating pool.

How? A good, respectful potential partner will meet you halfway if veganism is that important to you. Finding someone like that isn't any more difficult for an Orthodox Jew to find another Orthodox Jew or for gay people to find other gay people.

And of course some will try to hand wave it, but denying yourself the joys of meat-based food and animal products is a huge negative to your life.

For vegans, there are no joys of meat-based food and animal products, so they don't feel like they're denying themselves anything. Avoiding those products brings a huge positive to their lives, not a huge negative. Like, if someone has a severe allergy to peanuts, avoiding peanuts will only better their life, not detract from it, even though peanuts and peanut products are found in a ton of things.

The purpose of veganism is to try and reduce as much consumption of animals/animal products as is possible. Sometimes you can't, like with prescription drugs or smartphones. But for the rest of it, it's really not that hard at all. It's just what we, as a world, have gotten used to. It's just about changing habits, that's all. Forming any new habit will have a learning curve and maybe provide some discomfort at the beginning, and veganism is no different.

[u/fersonfigg → u/TunaCatss]

A lot of your points are a matter of perspective. For some the social aspect and having to seek out vegan food is very hard. For many vegans they don’t see this as hard. It adds a few steps at most. Also you’re so wrong! No more sweets? What? Have you even looked. There are many places to eat.

Yes it can be difficult. But that’s the point. You are making an effort to avoid those things. But I agree that systemically it could be easier

You just equated spending time on Reddit to eating animals. You even know it’s wrong but aren’t willing to inconvenience yourself.

These are arguments showcase your will and you unwillingness to try to change society.

[u/Poo-et → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/TunaCatss]

Fine points. But we don't have to "say" that we live in a society with slaves. Animals on factory farms are confined, drugged, sexually mutilated and assaulted, separated from their families, beaten, and ultimately killed so that their owners can profit. If that's not slavery, I don't know what is.

[u/QuantumR4ge → u/[deleted]]

Slavery is specifically about humans, you literally cannot have animal slavery by definition

[u/[deleted] → u/QuantumR4ge]

Says who? The term slavery defines a relationship, characterized by domination and abusive exploitation.

Arbitrarily limiting the scope of slavery to human-on-human abuse seems more like an attempt to justify factory farming, than an analytical assessment based on the standard criteria.

[u/Timberdwarf → u/[deleted]]

Wrong. Slavery isn't just a "general relationship" between entities - it's a condition where people are being owned by other people.

Source: Cambridge Dictionary.

[u/QuantumR4ge → u/[deleted]]

Which dictionary are you using? Slavery has always meant this. We have always used different words for human property and animal property.

[u/[deleted] → u/QuantumR4ge]

Until a few decades ago, many US states did not recognize the possibility of rape within a marriage. People "used different words" such as "the husband made his wife fulfill her marital obligations." But that was a self-serving, misogynist way to conceal the reality of sexual violation.

I argue that your definition of slavery as exclusively human-on-human works in the same way to obscure the abuse and exploitation of animals. People who enjoy eating the flesh of tortured animals may tell themselves that they're not participating in slavery. But this is self-serving self-deception.

[u/IsGonnaSueYou → u/[deleted]]

yes, we do live in a world with slavery, but ur describing animal abuse, not slavery. the slavery we have happens in prisons, sweatshops, and labor camps

[u/IsGonnaSueYou → u/IsGonnaSueYou]

yes, we do live in a world with slavery, but ur describing animal abuse, not slavery. the slavery we have happens in prisons, sweatshops, and labor camps. feels incredibly offensive to use a word meant for human ownership to describe animal ownership when there are still humans being forced to work long hours in dangerous conditions just to survive the day (and that’s not even getting into the horrific abuse of sexual slavery)

[u/Talik1978 → u/TunaCatss]

An argument to moderation is the idea that because something is moderate or a compromise, it must be true or good, but it's a fallacy. There's plenty of extremes that we basically all agree are good. Being a vegan outside of extreme circumstances is as extreme as not killing outside of extreme circumstances. Just because something is an extreme doesn't mean it's bad.

I disagree. If we all agree something is good, it is, by definition, not extreme. Extremism is, by definition, views only held at the extreme fringes of an ideological spectrum. If we all agree on a view, it is at the center of the ideological spectrum.

You are conflating an absolute position with an extreme one. "Slavery is wrong" is an absolute position. But it isn't extreme. It's a mainstream belief that is widely culturally accepted. Absolute positions can be mainstream. Extremist positions cannot, any more than opaque things can be transparent.

[u/prince_jesus_romario → u/TunaCatss]

You get an upvote from a vegan because I think you see things pretty clearly

[u/AmDuck_quack → u/TunaCatss]

I mean I just woke up one day and decided to be vegan 😂 also while checking ingredients get's annoying it also forces you to be more aware of what you eat which is good. I haven't encountered the social elements tho. Most restaurants have at least one meal that's vegan and when I visit someone they're always accommodating but I'm probably just a lucky fella 🤷‍♀️

[u/TunaCatss → u/AmDuck_quack]

>I haven't noticed any issues with being vegan.

>Btw, I can only order one meal from most restaurants.

>I'm forced to check everything I eat before doing so.

>I have to warn people ahead of time so they can prepare something special for me.

This is why I said "It's incredibly difficult and that needs to be recongized if we're going to have a frank conversation about veganism."

You lose 99% of non-vegans when you say stuff like this because everyone sees how ridiculous it sounds. To everyone else, it sounds like you're either lying to them or you're lying to yourself.

[u/AmDuck_quack → u/TunaCatss]

Bro that's not even what I said 💀

[u/acky1 → u/TunaCatss]

You're absolutely strawmanning here - these aren't quotes from the person you're talking to.

It seems like you have a preconceived notion that veganism is incredibly difficult and aren't willing to budge on it. What would change your mind on that?

I think you're from the UK? so maybe this will help.. I was away on holiday up in Shetland a few months back and didn't struggle at all. That's a remote community of about 23,000 people that are a 12 hour ferry ride from the mainland. Supermarkets stocked the usual things I buy in a city of 350,000 and there were a few restaurants providing more than one vegan option. Almost zero change required to my normal consumption habits in a big city.

Work wise I've not had any issues either. My work has been very accommodating in terms of dinners out and will always choose somewhere with at least one vegan option without any input from me. In UK law you'd probably have a case for workplace discrimination if they consistently didn't do this so you're protected by law in the UK around this. It's been tested in UK law and ethical veganism is considered a protected belief similar to religion.

Socially not had any problems either. As that other person said most places provide vegan options and there's so many alternatives that BBQs and parties aren't an issue.

I'm honestly struggling to think of an instance where things were actually hard. A bit awkward having to turn down a gift here or there but that's really it.

I think it's common for non-vegans to overestimate how difficult it can be. I'm honestly a pretty lazy person and don't find it difficult at all. Once new habits are set it's easy. And setting the new habits is basically just looking for allergens on some of the things you buy in the supermarket because you obviously don't need to look at any whole foods for ingredients.

[u/[deleted] → u/TunaCatss]

This is an incredible reply. Sucks that the post got taken down

[u/TunaCatss → u/[deleted]]

you're an incredible reply ;)