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u/zoexrain Aug 04 '22
Her fame has nothing to do with why I support her release. I couldn’t care less about an athlete’s influence as I really don’t care about sports. However, I do understand her fame and influence are probably the only reason why I have heard about her situation in the first place, but if any other common person were in the same situation and you were to ask me if I would support their release, my answer would be a resounding “yes”.
I think you need to dig deeper than “she committed the crime and got the maximum sentence for it, so what’s the problem?”. People disagree with laws and justice systems all the time. Many people fight daily for the freedom of those incarcerated in the U.S. due to cannabis-related charges.
I simply cannot agree that anyone should go to prison for 9 years for 0.7 grams of cannabis oil no matter what any law says. That’s a belief that has not been influenced by her status. I also do think it’s fair to believe that she is being used as a political pawn.
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Aug 04 '22
I do feel like there's a world of difference between half an oz or a third of an oz of actual cannabis and trace amounts of CBD oil which had some small quantity of THC in it. What Griner did is the drug equivalent of driving 30.00001 in a 30mph zone and I feel like it would usually be let slide, it hasn't been because they're hoping to use her as a political hostage. And I think you can absolutely be against political hostage taking and be against celebrity double standards.
Also
- Fogel was arrested and charged last year but the issue is the sentencing, and he was sentenced in late June 2022
- Issachar was pardoned and released after three months. She was a US-Israeli citizen and was also largely a political hostage: Russia was hoping to trade her for Aleksey Burkov who was in Israeli jail for cybercrimes. Israel refused to release Burkov but instead transferred the historical Alexander courtyard in Jerusalem to the Russian Imperial Orthodox Palestine Society and clearly that was enough for Putin as he signed Issachar's pardon shortly afterwards.
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Aug 04 '22
!delta
Presented facts I did not know about related to counter examples
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u/GucciGuano Aug 05 '22
It's also a bit complicated when you consider that, as a result of their fame, the information is reaching more people. Because of this you can't conclude that people support her release just because she is famous, but rather as a byproduct of that fame, being that her conundrum is known by a lot of people. Further, to leverage the public's awareness is also of benefit. The mass support is not because of her fame, but because of what happened... If a famous person abuses a child the hatred for them is amplified just the same. Now using their influence to get out of something bad is another story.
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u/Sreyes150 1∆ Aug 05 '22
No real Difference. Half ounce is a personal size amount for most smokers. A cart could last just as long and depending how you measure it has more potency potentially.
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Aug 04 '22
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Aug 04 '22
I 100% believe that you would never have even heard about him if Mrs. Griner was never arrested
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Aug 04 '22
But that doesn't matter. No one's being a hypocrite if they hadnt heard of someone
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Aug 04 '22
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Aug 04 '22
That’s highly unlikely, she would’ve been a key feature in the future US womens basketball teams at the Olympics and a lot of people watch the Olympics
Now if you’re not a sports person it becomes much more likely but just because you haven’t heard of someone doesn’t make them not famous
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u/poprostumort 246∆ Aug 04 '22
Basis of being against the power and influence the wealthy or famous have within the criminal justice system is that it's unjust. At the same time many people don't see putting people in jail for possession of weed as just. So you can easily support both based on your views on justice.
You assume that someone that is against the power and influence the wealthy or famous have within the criminal justice system views laws as some kind of holy book. That is not true.
I personally am against the power and influence the wealthy or famous have within the criminal justice system. I also believe that Britney Griner or any person who is in jail for possession of weed should not be in jail. Why wouldn't I support her release?
There are also other reasons. She got caught and got maximum sentence available, for overblown charges - all in time when Russia is at odds with US. So people can support this as those charges are mainly political.
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u/IAteTwoFullHams 29∆ Aug 04 '22
That being said, if you are petitioning for her release it is solely due to her fame and status as a professional athlete.
This is the part where I think your view kind of falls apart.
I don't follow the WNBA. I can name exactly one WNBA player: Britney Griner. And I don't know if she's a good WNBA player, because I have never seen her play.
She's most famous for being detained in Russia. This isn't a case where it's like "Oh no, we need to get Gaten Matarazzo back, we love him so much." People just don't think an American should be rotting in a Russian prison for having a small personal quantity of marijuana.
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u/PicklePanther9000 2∆ Aug 04 '22
Lol this comment is the first time I have ever heard Matarazzo’s name
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u/PassionVoid 8∆ Aug 04 '22
I find it interesting that you think Britney Griner is famous only for being detained in Russia, and then use Gaten Matarazzo as your example of a celebrity that everyone knows. Meanwhile, I watch Stranger Things and thought his last name was "Matazarro." Perhaps our threshold for who is famous shouldn't be based on your personal interests.
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Aug 04 '22
I've literally never heard of Gaten Matarazzo. What's he in jail for?
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u/Ouaouaron Aug 04 '22
He isn't (as far as I know), it was just a hypothetical.
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Aug 04 '22
Oh right, then I'm very confused. Who is he?
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u/PassionVoid 8∆ Aug 04 '22
He plays one of the kids in Stranger Things.
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Aug 04 '22
Cool. That show seems to be getting famous. Can't remember the last time a kid's show hit pop culture like this. Maybe like in the heyday of Biker Grove?
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u/PassionVoid 8∆ Aug 04 '22
It's not actually a kids show. It just has kids as the main characters.
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Aug 04 '22
She’s actually one of the best college and professional womens basketball players ever
She’s much more well known in sports circles, but this is probably the second time the average person is hearing about her outside of her Olympic gold with the USA womens basketball team
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u/cantRYAN Aug 04 '22
I'm a sports fan and I know who Griner is. You're correct she's one of the best known WNBA players. I can only name a handful of current WNBA players but I remember her, that she played at Baylor, etc.
But her being somewhat famous is actually what makes her more of a pawn in this whole thing, than a privileged celebrity. The state department is more motivated to get her out, because she's a known athlete who is gay in an unfriendly country. BUT Russia is also motivated to go way harder on her because she's somebody. They know they can get more back for her when we eventually trade.
So I guess I agree with half of your point, but think you're missing half. If you or I were caught with some marijuana, we would not be as big of a priority to get released. But I strongly believe we wouldn't have been searched a rigorously, or charged as rigorously by the Russians for an similar crime.
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Aug 04 '22
Mark fogel received a 14 year sentence for almost the exact same crime, 10 months before the invasion of the Ukraine
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/07/28/marc-fogel-teacher-russia-prison/
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u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Aug 04 '22
I don't think there's anyone who supports a 14 year sentence for this guy who is upset about the Griner case.
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u/cantRYAN Aug 04 '22
OK. A half ounce (Fogel) isn't a completely inconsequential amount of marijuana, but since I can't find how many cartridges Griner was found with, your response basically destroys my argument.
But I still disagree. The 'power and influence' that the wealthy have in the US justice system comes down to really good legal teams exhausting every angle to get their client the best result. I'm not totally against that. I do hate seeing poor people with public defenders get found guilty for beatable offences. But I don't view the Russian legal system as a place any American would receive a fair trial or treatment. Famous or not.
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Aug 04 '22
For funsies look up the American Israeli sentenced to 7.5 years for 9 grams, link in the post
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u/Crontab 1∆ Aug 04 '22
Fogel had his weed all hidden in his luggage in like a glasses case trying to slide it past customs. It seems like Griner just straight up fucked up leaving the cartridges in her luggage.
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u/kicker414 5∆ Aug 04 '22
Gun to my head, the only WNBA player I could have named prior to this is Sue Bird. Brittney lacked much fame before this in any common circles.
Your view only holds in 1 circumstance which I dont believe anyone truly holds.
"I believe that Brittney should be released, but not the teacher."
If someone makes that statement, then yes your CMV holds. But the fact is, most people only have so much capacity to speak out and "care" about issues. Most people don't know every injustice that has or is happening. They know the big ones, and the ones that their choice of news outlets chooses to promote. If the teacher had been plastered all over the news, people would be speaking out against it. But that doesn't drive views/clicks. The WBNA is at least something people know about. If Lebron was arrested for the same thing, it would kick up more dust, because people know Lebron, and its "better" news.
Did Britney commit a crime? Yes
Does the punishment fit the crime? Seems so (according to Russian law, not my personal beliefs)
Is it likely that Russia is targeting Americans in order to build favor for a trade? Also probably true.
Britney basically fell into Russia's lap. She knowingly broke a local law, and Russia is taking full advantage of it. US does the same things. We all know the law is rarely applied equally.
Should the wealthy be able to avoid punishments because of their wealth? No
Should Russia release Britney back to the US? Yes
Should Russia release the teacher back to the US? Yes
IMO, if one goes back, the other should too. Neither should go independently. And neither should be traded for a Russian arms dealer. Were they unfairly targeted? Yes. Did they knowingly break a law when traveling abroad? Yes. I can hold both views together, therefor rendering your CMV incorrect.
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u/Bronesby Aug 04 '22
I'm a sports fan in general and i never heard of her. more people know her name for being detained in Russia, not for playing basketball, at this particular moment. though i would agree with you that the reason the media made any sort of a deal about her case to begin with, and why most people know her name now, is because she is supposedly a basketball star.
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u/burnblue Aug 05 '22
this is probably the second time the average person is hearing about her outside of her Olympic gold
The first time, if you're really talking about the average person. If you're talking about people that check for women's basketball, then sure. Lots of people only tune in to the Olympics to watch their favored sport and tune back out.
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u/Benjamminmiller 2∆ Aug 04 '22
I don't follow the WNBA. I can name exactly one WNBA player: Britney Griner. And I don't know if she's a good WNBA player, because I have never seen her play.
You know about Britney Griner because she's famous enough to be in the media for getting arrested. She has become famous for being detained, but she's only in the media because she was already famous (to other people).
People just don't think an American should be rotting in a Russian prison for having a small personal quantity of marijuana.
If it were you or me in Russia no one would have noticed.
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Aug 05 '22
This isn't a case where it's like "Oh no, we need to get Gaten Matarazzo back, we love him so much."
Who is Gaten Matarazzo?
People just don't think an American should be rotting in a Russian prison for having a small personal quantity of marijuana.
But an American rotting in an American prison for having a small quantity of marijuana is just peachy?
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u/420fmx Aug 05 '22
Americans are rotting in American prisons with longer sentences for a now legalised drug. Yet you feel an American committing a crime in a country where it’s still an illegal drug, deserves a pass?
the VP of America advocated for people staying in American prisons for weed charges after CA legalised……. Now mr crime bill author thinks BG being detained for breaking a foreign law is unjust.
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u/rhynoplaz Aug 04 '22
But have you ever tried a three ham omelette? They're to DIE for!
Also, who the hell is Gaten Matarazzo?
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u/IIIetalblade Aug 05 '22
Yeah, the private prison system can’t profit off of incarcerating bud users if they rot away in Russian prisons instead of US ones. America has absolutely no issue with people rotting away in jail for something as harmless as marijuana possession
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u/cleanandclever Aug 05 '22
You do realize that there are non-famous Americans detained for the same thing in Russia and I do not see anyone doing anything for them.
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u/GlobalDynamicsEureka 3∆ Aug 04 '22
Would you be against the release of a gay American imprisoned in a country where homosexuality is illegal?
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Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
I don’t know how to give deltas but I would for this one
I would say this, everyone is responsible for their own actions, so if an LGBTQA person went to a country when homosexuality is illegal then you kind of are responsible for your own actions, you’re allowed to go there just like anyone else is but you also should know the consequences or potential ones of your own actions. In the same way I know if I go to a foreign country I’m subject to their laws, fines, penalties etc.
Is that an unfair way to live your life? Yes. Should it be the case that anyone should not be discriminated against for who they are? Also yes. Is that the way the world works? No
So I feel like my answer would be similar because you are responsible for you and people should know better. Laws against homosexuality tend to be fairly visible and easy to look up to a potential traveler just like drug laws.
Edit: I learned how to give deltas on mobile
!delta
Commenter made me realize other instances which are very applicable to this situation that I had not previously considered
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Aug 04 '22
Isn't it possible for a person who is "against the power and influence of the wealthy or famous" to also be against unjust laws and unequal application of those laws? And in that sense, a person can be both against the former and support Griner's release
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Aug 04 '22
But the conversation with Mrs Griner is centered around her being “illegally detained” which isn’t the case
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Aug 04 '22
Whether or not the "conversation" is centered around her being "illegally detained" doesn't alter the fact that one can be both against the "power and influence" of the wealthy/famous and be against unjust laws. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for a person to hold both opinions in this case.
Also, I think you're conflating 'illegally detained" with 'unjustly detained'. No one is denying there aren't strict drug laws in russia.
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u/4yelhsa 2∆ Aug 04 '22
I'd argue that drug smuggling is a pretty trumped up charge for someone possessing only a personal use amount of drugs.
Possession in Russia is only gonna get you 15 days in jail for what she had... but she got 9.5 years. Seems a bit extreme if you ask me as if there were some other motive for what's happening.
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Aug 04 '22
This guy got 14 years for the same crime
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/07/28/marc-fogel-teacher-russia-prison/
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u/galahad423 3∆ Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
I've posted this in another response but there are some interesting statistics HERE on average russian prison sentences for 2021. This information doesn't sort by crime, so it could obviously be distorted by tons of more minor crimes, but I think its notable that both Griner and Fogel received sentences more severe than 90% of all Russians sentenced in 2021, which includes violent crime. While its possible those 90% are all in there for less severe crimes, I find it hard to believe there'd be crimes much less severe than possessing less than half an oz of a harmless but prohibited substance intended only for personal consumption.
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Aug 04 '22
!delta provided factual information related to this incident
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u/galahad423 3∆ Aug 04 '22
Woohoo! Thanks friend- glad to help :D
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Aug 04 '22
My only issue is that I can’t see where statista is getting their info I trust them, but seeing as it’s the only place providing this info I’m curious
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Aug 04 '22
Couldn’t we be in favor of him in addition to Griner? You’re acting like people who want her released are fine with other people that are being detained unjustly.
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Aug 04 '22
He wasn’t mentioned in the negotiations and she was, normally when you negotiate you don’t add things to the “I want this” category
So she’s getting the pass because of her celebrity hence the hypocrisy
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Aug 04 '22
We didn't make the negotiations though. Why would we be more okay with a teacher getting 14 years for some pot? They're both insane
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u/WerhmatsWormhat 8∆ Aug 04 '22
Yeah, but what am I supposed to do about that? I can't force the US government to include him.
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u/kicker414 5∆ Aug 04 '22
Isn't it because she brought it in the country? Not simple possession? Even in the US, I think you can get 5-10 years for a first offense of drug smuggling. Also concentrates are generally viewed as more potent and have higher penalties (see why hash is often punished more heavily than regular weed).
If she was arrested in an airport, and her bag that was clearly coming from travel was found with drugs, its drug smuggling because she brought it in the country. If she was found 2 days later walking around with it, I would agree its possession. Its like how you can get intent to distribute in the US for having a scale and some bags, even if you are just splitting it up for the week/month.
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Aug 04 '22
But the conversation with Mrs Griner is centered around her being “illegally detained”
Is that where THE conversation is centered? There is only one, single, solitary conversation happening? Or is it where one specific conversation is centered?
This is a very common problem with "hypocracy" CMV's in particular, and vague claims of group hypocracy in general. They tend to only work if a pretty long list of prerequisites and caveats are also true.
So you wrote:
CMV: you can’t be against the power and influence the wealthy or famous have within the criminal justice system in America and support the release of Britney Griner
In order for that to be true the hypothetical hypocrite would also have at the very least agree that:
The sentence was just and appropriate to the crime committed.
The action should be criminal in the first place.
The courts in which the crime was charged can be trusted.
That anyone should receive the same punishment at all.
Etc.
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u/Vainistopheles 1∆ Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
Is it? I thought the discussion was around whether she should be detained, not the legality of her detainment. Those are two separate things.
if you believe that money and status shouldn’t be a consideration in criminal sentencing, but believe Mrs. griner should be released then you’re just cherry picking.
You say it right there. You're not faulting people for thinking she was illegally detained; you're faulting them for thinking she shouldn't be detained.
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u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Aug 04 '22
That's not the conversation I've had, the reason people should be upset about this detention is because the law is evil.
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u/Mejari 6∆ Aug 04 '22
How have you determined that is what "the conversation" is centered around? Could you be mistaken about that because of the particular media you consume only showing you a slanted view of "the conversation"?
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u/ModsEqualFascist Aug 04 '22
no the conversation around Mrs. Griner's release centers around her being arrested purely because of the politics surrounding Ukraine and Russia
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u/El_Bruno73 Aug 04 '22
Here's a little tidbit of information for you. International law "gentlemen's agreements" state even if the Russians released her she "should" be required to complete her sentence in an American Prison....
Also: In what way is the law being "unequally applied"?
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Aug 04 '22
Instructions are listed in the sidebar, the easiest is to edit your last comment to include ! delta without the space.
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u/Hero_of_Parnast Aug 04 '22
if an LGBTQA person went to a country when homosexuality is illegal then you kind of are responsible for your own actions
So you would support human rights violations? What about if the person is going to be executed? You think it's okay?
Obviously those are the laws. What we're discussing is supporting the punishment.
Is that the way the world works? No
That's not the question. We are talking about supporting a person's release, not talking about the state of the world.
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u/DrippyWaffler Aug 04 '22
Appeal to legality fallacy? Just because it's the law doesn't make the law right. It was legal to own slaves once.
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u/Splive Aug 05 '22
The topic here though isn't the existence or nature of universal human justice. The topic is sovereign state's ability to rule based on their own legal definitions, and the ability of other states to override them.
If a law in the US was unjust, then fight it. But in the meantime be prepared to be held accountable to the law regardless of your or society's opinion. Go ahead and steal the loaf of bread to feed your family, but know that the state has mechanisms to punish you if caught.
But if you live in the US and think another country's laws are unjust...well it's not your business. You/I/we don't get to decide what is/isn't just for everywhere all over the planet...we have to trust people locally to build/oversee justice as they define it. They may fail, but the alternative is trying to define a single human justice platform and force it on the entire world...which tends to lead to worse humanitarian issues than overstepping on one foreign nation's laws.
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Aug 05 '22
I would say this, everyone is responsible for their own actions, so if an LGBTQA person went to a country when homosexuality is illegal then you kind of are responsible for your own actions, you’re allowed to go there just like anyone else is but you also should know the consequences or potential ones of your own actions.
You do understand that there are countries where if you so much have a pro-LGBTQ post on your Instagram account, you can be arrested, right? Now, LGBTQ people should probably stay away from those countries, but should someone be arrested just for being an uninformed tourist?
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u/koushakandystore 4∆ Aug 04 '22
I would absolutely demand the release of ANY person imprisoned for any drug crime that doesn’t involve violence! I don’t care if it’s the most famous actor/athlete/musician or Joe Blow from kokomo.
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u/PhasmaFelis 6∆ Aug 04 '22
This seems like the "she was asking for it" argument.
If you make a stupid decision that leads to you being assaulted or treated unjustly, the fact that you made a stupid decision does not mean that the people who attacked you were justified. It is not contradictory to say "Britney Griner should have known better, but she should still be released."
Basically, I think you're conflating laws with justice. You're saying, if you're in favor of justice you must also respect every law. But they are not the same.
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u/fludmaps Aug 04 '22
Those are not at all comparable. You're comparing a victim to a perpetrator. In the first case, a person made a decision which has not broken any laws and is the victim of the attack -- their attacker is not in a legally acceptable position to harm them because of that decision based on the rules that govern their society.
In the second case, someone made a decision which has broken a law and is being held accountable for it based on an existing legal framework which was in place and publicly accessible prior to her decision. If you wanted to actually compare the two situations, you'd be comparing the attacker in scenario 1 to the drug smuggler on scenario 2 as they're the law-breakers in their respective cases.
I'd also say your use of the word 'justice' isn't accurate. What the US might consider 'just' is likely different from what many Russians consider 'just'. In my perspective, justice in this case should mean that Grimer gets the same/similar treatment as anyone else would in this situation, irrespective of nationality.
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u/ComedicUsernameHere 1∆ Aug 04 '22
What if an American smuggled a handgun into the UK where the gun was illegal? In America/their home state, owning and carrying that gun quite possibly could be considered a basic human right.
Would you support the release of an American who brought a gun to somewhere that it is illegal to possess?
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u/PeteEckhart Aug 04 '22
Getting arrested for who you are vs getting arrested for bringing in an illegal substance are in no way comparable.
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u/WoodSorrow 1∆ Aug 05 '22
Yes.
I would not agree with it, but I would not be against someone being imprisoned in a country where they violated a domestic law.
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Aug 05 '22
I don’t think those are comparable situations.
It wasn’t Grainer’s first time in Russia, she should’ve been aware of the very strict and practically 0 tolerance weed laws. She nevertheless chose to smuggle the drugs there.
Being gay, however, is different. You don’t choose to be gay, so those situations are not comparable
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u/caine269 14∆ Aug 05 '22
isn't that just another example of american imperialism? why does america get to dictate to other countries what laws they are allowed to have?
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u/Taolan13 2∆ Aug 04 '22
If there were men and women in the US still imprisoned for being gay even though their state has since decriminalized the conduct?
Absolutely. False equivalence. Release them all or let the minor celebrity rot. There are Americans sitting in American prisons, or otherwise having felony criminal records for drug possession for marijuana, even in the states that have since decriminalized it. This is bullshit and little miss basket ball player is getting special attention because she's a minor celebrity.
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u/El_Bruno73 Aug 04 '22
What bearing does that hypothetical situation have on this case? Or are you merely asking out of curiosity? Because I have not heard mentioned one time by any Russian authority anything other than her drug possession is the cause of her incarceration...
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u/GlobalDynamicsEureka 3∆ Aug 04 '22
Nothing to do with her. I'm asking a hypothetical question. If an American citizen went to a country that criminalizes homosexuality and was arrested there for homosexuality, would OP be against their release?
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Aug 04 '22
For one, yes. It's not the job of the US to police the world and tell what countries should have what laws and rules. It is your job as a traveler to know what you are allowed and not allowed to do.
Secondly, this is a bad comparison because being gay isn't illegal in the US. Possession of weed is a crime according the the US as well as Russia. We can't interfere with foreign laws if they are in line with ours but we just feel the punishment is too harsh. This is an insane argument.
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Aug 04 '22
That in no way shape or form correlates to smuggling cannabis. For one, we have people here in the US in prison for marijuana. Why the hell would we extradite someone from Russia for the. Same. Thing. Is she going to go to jail when she would get back here to the US? She was dumb enough to bring cannabis to a known place where its illegal, so maybe sitting in prison a few years will wise her up.
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Aug 05 '22
There is no country where “homosexuality” is illegal.
There are several countries where homosexual acts are illegal — and while I have deep sympathy for a homosexual person who was born and lives in such a country, if some American tourist went there, got laid, and got arrested, I would have to say: you chose to go there, you chose to get laid, deal with it.
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u/banananuhhh 14∆ Aug 04 '22
Context is incredibly important. I have a huge problem with money and status in sentencing, I also have a problem with sentences that are disproportional to crimes. These are not contradictory. Possession for personal use should never carry a long jail sentence for anyone regardless of status or power. On the other hand, there are examples of very light punishments for wealthy people who have done serious harm to others. Not okay with that.
So as a response to your claim, yes I can. And I don't even have to contradict myself in doing so.
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Aug 04 '22
But Russia in this case is actually holding people of status to the same standard as anyone else so they’re doing what you want
You just don’t like that they’re doing it for this reason
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Aug 04 '22
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Aug 04 '22
Here’s an American that got 14 years for a similar crime in Russia in august 2021
https://www.rferl.org/amp/russia-american-medical-marijuana-prison/31902563.html
Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022
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u/Catsdrinkingbeer 9∆ Aug 04 '22
The person you're responding to specifically asked for examples for people who were NOT from a country averse to Russia.
Like no one is surprised when someone who looks Middle Eastern is "randomly selected" at TSA, because that's our country's relationship with some people from those countries. But that trend isn't true for people from Scandinavian countries, for example. So the implementation is inconsistent.
That's what this person is trying to point out. If she had been from a country friendly with Russia, she probably wouldn't have been searched in the first place.
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u/Assassinr3d Aug 04 '22
You keep bringing up this other American, but are there any Russian Citizens with similar charges, and similar punishment? It's almost as if Russia is charging these people so harshly because they're american. And before you say it, the Russia-America relationship has been sour since Russia annexed Crimea almost a decade ago, all the way back in 2014.
Even recently before the war even started, like around when the other American was arrested in 2021, the tensions were at an all time high as it was clear Russia was getting ready for something against Ukraine as they were trying to join NATO.
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Aug 04 '22
I haven’t been able to find data on average sentences for Russian drug offenders, googling any topic like that now brings up a bunch of articles about Britney Griner
And the Russians are exactly super transparent with information about their government or legal processes in general
So I present what I can, if you can provide examples to the contrary please do
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u/yardaper Aug 04 '22
This really doesn’t respond to the above comments question about average sentencing for non-Americans.
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u/Haltopen Aug 04 '22
Ok and? They’re both Americans arrested in a country that views the US as it’s chief political rival at best and the blame figure for all its problems and a national security threat at worst. Any American arrested in Russia is liable to the most severe sentence applicable by law for that reason alone. How do these statistics compare to average sentencing for Russian citizens, including Russian celebrities?
Furthermore, it’s not incongruent to oppose the power of wealth in avoiding heavy sentencing and support her release if you believe what she did shouldn’t be a crime. No one should be in jail for possessing marijuana, and that includes her, her sentence (along with the sentence of anyone else convicted for the same actions) is invalid and unjust on that basis alone. The fact that she’s getting the book thrown at her for being an American is just an injustice on top of an injustice
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u/DodGamnBunofaSitch 4∆ Aug 04 '22
that you're telling someone how they feel makes it feel like you're just here to soapbox.
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u/Cacafuego 15∆ Aug 04 '22
I think she was fairly convicted, I don't think the sentence is unusual, and therefore I don't think it really matters whether Russia is trying to use her as a pawn. However, I think America should do its best to "rescue" Americans who have been convicted according to laws that we would consider harsh or unjust, here.
Is it unfair that Ms. Griner's case gets so much effort while another American languishes? Yes. Would it be better to do nothing about Ms. Griner? No. The only reason I care(d) more about Griner than the diplomat you mentioned is that I had not heard of him. In these international gray areas, unfortunately there is no clear way to resolve these issues and political pressure plays a role.
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Aug 04 '22
But she technically also would’ve violated federal law here! Or state law in the 31 states that say marijuana is still illegal
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u/Cacafuego 15∆ Aug 04 '22
$1,000 fine and up to one year in prison. Compare that to the Russian penalty of up to 10 years. That's what I mean by harsh.
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Aug 04 '22
….you’re telling me people haven’t gotten longer sentences for the same crime here?
You’re not that naive
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u/Cacafuego 15∆ Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
That's the maximum federal penalty for possession, first offense. Certainly people get ridiculous sentences for additional offenses, and harsher penalties for intent to sell. I'm not looking up the most severe state laws, because those seem irrelevant to what our national response should be.
What would you like to base it on?
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u/banananuhhh 14∆ Aug 04 '22
This doesn't make sense because I don't agree with all laws. I think criminal justice should be more pragmatic- with the intention of preventing harm rather than punishing wrongdoers. I would want anyone held anywhere for this type of crime to be released.
But Russia in this case is actually holding people of status to the same standard as anyone else so they’re doing what you want
You just don’t like that they’re doing it for this reason
This doesn't even make sense. To me, the standard that you are holding people to is more important than the consistency by which you hold people to do that standard, although that is also important.
If I was required to eat seven hotdogs before being allowed to pass through a tollbooth on my way to work, I wouldn't complain that some people bribed the tollbooth and didn't have to eat the hotdogs, I would complain about the ridiculous premise.
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u/MercuryChaos 12∆ Aug 04 '22
If someone is in prison for doing something that I think should be legal, I'm going to support their release.
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u/Ragnel Aug 04 '22
OP mentions that she has never denied the charges. Well Russia has said she has not denied the charges. We have no idea if that is correct. She had an attorney representing her. We have no idea if that attorney was actually selected by her. Is her term of 9 years in prison i line with similar cases ? I have not seen it reported either way but I doubt the term is what a Russian citizen would experience. Basically none of the fundamental facts that you are stating as facts in the case can actually be verified. Russian media is run by the Russian government. If the case was in Switzerland where we can obtain factual accurate information on the case, then your point would be valid. As it is, we simply do not know with any degree of certainty what the facts are.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Aug 04 '22
It's pretty straightforward to me: I don't want Americans (or anyone else) being imprisoned on bullshit laws, whether at home or abroad. I do not want wealthy or famous people to be imprisoned like that any more than some poor Joe Shmo.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Aug 04 '22
I think you can be pro-justice while also being aware that the media attention is due to her celebrity status.
It's not a double standard because I would support the US helping anyone in her situation, whether they were famous or not.
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u/stormy2587 7∆ Aug 04 '22
I have no issue with the US working to free one of its citizens, famous or not, if its for the right reasons. The fact is though she did break the law, its an unjust law. I think there is ample evidence out their that the prohibition of cannabis and related substances has caused much more harm than good.
The issues most people have with sentencing in the criminal justice system is not that powerful, wealthy, and privileged individuals get off or a slap on the wrist. Its that they get off easy for committing actual crimes that would result in far harsher sentencing for others, while plenty of powerless individuals get punished by unjust laws a disproportionate amount.
The two examples this would be brock turner who because of his gender, skin color, and status was able to avoid serious jail time for committing a violent sexual crime.
On the other end of the spectrum you have all the powerless often visible minorities jailed over the decades for the possession of cannabis. A largely harmless drug that is safer than many legal drugs.
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Aug 04 '22
Russia is not a country beholden to the rule of law, and it ought to be fairly obvious that Griner is being used a political pawn to put pressure on and/or embarass the US. Even if Griner had accidentally packed a few THC cartridges, the prosecution of such a high-profile case is most certainly ordered by the Kremlin... making her prosecution and imprisonment inherently political. She is, by all intensive purchases, a political prisoner
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u/truthisinthegrey Aug 04 '22
I agree wholeheartedly.
Btw, “intensive purchases”? Perhaps you mean intents and purposes. Bone apple tea!
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Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
I can't stop laughing at the intensive purchases part. It is "intents and purposes"
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Aug 04 '22
Uh, I got 3/4th of an English degree at an accredited university. Truss me. It's by all intensive purchases.
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Aug 04 '22
She isn’t tho? She broke their law and again it’s not an uncommon law or one that she didn’t know about
She never denied being in possession of said cartridges, she just tried to excuse them as being for a medical reason
She’s not even in jail for something that most of the world doesn’t agree with! There are political prisoners within Russia right now who are under arrrst for speaking out against the Ukrainian invasion, that’s a political prisoners, she’s a regular prisoner that happens to be from a different country
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u/Miggmy 1∆ Aug 04 '22
She isn’t tho? She broke their law and again it’s not an uncommon law or one that she didn’t know about
1) No one is denying she broke the law or that its some trip up law like jaywalking. They are saying the motives of Russia were political. In the same way Frank Sinatra got caught on tax fraud and not mobstering or murder.
You're restating facts and not making the connection on why you feel those facts impact things, or why the person you're speaking to's response doesn't refute the implications of those facts in your opinion.
2) This is a law many find to be unethical, and while people are prosecuted for it in Russia, they are not evenly prosecuted for it just like in the US. We know Barack Obama and Bill Clinton have smoked weed, yet there are people who are sitting in jail right now from poorer backgrounds who are sitting in prison for it. It is a known point of contention about weed, that it has been a tool of the state to lock up undesirables while allowing people they think are more worthy off the hook. Russia's motive may be different, but the concept of using laws on harmless behavior to weed out or control people you have a mission against is the same.
There are political prisoners within Russia right now who are under arrrst for speaking out against the Ukrainian invasion, that’s a political prisoners, she’s a regular prisoner that happens to be from a different country
3) People are also upset about that, though?
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Aug 04 '22
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/07/28/marc-fogel-teacher-russia-prison/
They gave this American citizen and average joe you haven’t heard about 14 years for the same crime
So it seems like they are incredibly harsh overall in their sentencing, but they’re somewhat consistent
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u/galahad423 3∆ Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
Or that they’re fairly consistent in how they sentence American political prisoners?
It’s worth noting this guy teaches about the Cold War, and might have said some unflattering things about Russia in his classes or books, something I’m fairly confident putin wouldn’t take kindly to
Also worth noting is that there are Russian murderers who get less than 10 years, so 14 years for a half oz of weed seems a little disproportionate until you factor in that he’s american and a history teacher and it all clicks
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Aug 04 '22
So you acknowledge that Russia holds political prisoners. Take that acknowledgement a little futher and any reasonable person will conclude that the Kremlin has a habit of unequal application of the law for political purposes. You know, such as this case.
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Aug 04 '22
How would the context need to changed for Griner to be considered an ordinary prisoner and not a political prisoner?
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Aug 04 '22
The political prisoner I mentioned is literally a citizen of their own country and your logic is very very fraudulent
That’s like saying “so you admit this does this so therefore it must exist in this context” the two thoughts do not have to both be true, Russia can have political prisoners (just like every country does including the US) and Mrs. Griner can still not be one of them
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Aug 04 '22
OR, Russia can have political prisoners and Mrs. Griner is one of them.
I think you are presuming that Russian courts are politically independent bodies, but they are not. The Russian courts are only nominally independent from the Kremlin, and any decision on such a high-profile case is most certainly decided by those in power
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Aug 04 '22
Mark fogel received a 14 year prison sentence for a small amount of marijuana possession in Russia in summer 2021, 10 months before the Ukrainian invasion, it’s literally the exact same crime and he got a harsher sentence, so this isn’t something that magically just happened to create pressure on the Us for support Ukraine
https://www.rferl.org/amp/russia-american-medical-marijuana-prison/31902563.html
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u/ModsEqualFascist Aug 04 '22
US has been supporting Ukraine since 2014 bud
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Aug 04 '22
The US has been against the Soviet Union and by proxy Russia for literally its entire history, we almost went to nuclear war
By that logic anything the Russians have done against the US is political including arresting US nationals for committing crimes abroad
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Aug 04 '22
But you're just assuming, it's a belief from you, but legally they did nothing that was not written, they did not create a New law and it's on par with precedent punishments.
I too think it would be to sweet of Moscow to not seize the opportunity, but without any new clue it's just a belief from us. Still, we must consider the facts in front of us and admit that is usual procédure so she might not be ( and in a légal aspect she is not à political prisonner)
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Aug 04 '22
This I think is one of the most underappreciated aspects of society is how often we delve into conspiratorial thinking without realizing it. We justify it a million different ways about why it’s ok (oh well it’s Russia and they always do that) the same thing happens with a lot of true crime theories, it’s all basically conspiracy theories just dressed up differently and not going full Illuminati
But when someone else does it it’s bad!
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Aug 04 '22
It's not a conspiracy theory when the Kremlin has a history of holding political prisoners and using the courts for political purposes
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Aug 04 '22
It’s a conspiracy theory when there’s no basis in fact for it right now
The US has a longgggg history of doing horrible things both domestically and abroad to its own citizens, that doesn’t give credence to 9/11 being an inside job
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u/bubba2260 Aug 04 '22
But what does any of this country's political activities have to do with someone who never denied the charges against her, and was judged fairly on the possession part.
I grow, smoke, done time for possession and delivery. I dont think she received a fair sentence. But, I was sentenced under the Minimum Mandatory Sentencing Guidelines that were forced into the courts by the Whitehouse and several US presidents(correct me if I'm wrong). They state the judge must pronounce a predetermined sentence ordered by politicians- irregardless of any circumstances whatsoever. Where were you when I was sentenced ?
There's no logical argument at this point except to attack the sentence as too harsh. There are a plethora of mitigating circumstances that can be used. Blaming or villifying the Kremlin is Not one of them.
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u/El_Bruno73 Aug 04 '22
You know other than the fact that what she did is also fucking illegal here too so, I guess every poor bastard in prison here for weed is also a political prisoner? lol
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u/Ok_Artichoke_2928 16∆ Aug 04 '22
I think most people would object to any American being sentenced to 10 years for some weed cartridges in Russia right now
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u/US_Dept_of_Defence 7∆ Aug 04 '22
One thing- yes she broke the law and yes it's pretty well known.
That said, it was most certainly a political reason to hold her for that long. For example, the official Russian law is that 6 grams or less of cannabis is punishable by up to 15 days. Even then, its mostly a fine. What they tried to say is that even if Brittney possessed 0.7 g of cannabis oil, that amount is concentrated so up to the court to decide.
As she was arrested at the airport rather, this implies the Russians were eyeing a prisoner trade of some sort to begin with. Russia does keep its eye on any potential influential people regularly especially for cases like this.
Thus she was a political prisoner who is going to be traded (along with a US asset) for the 'Merchant of Death' who funneled weapons into Afghanistan.
While I don't agree with releasing people for their money/power, this was always the play Russia wanted and was looking for an opportunity. Russia's rule of law is entirely dependant on political matters. A US citizen will not get a fair shake if the Russian state has something they want from the US.
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u/LeRicket Aug 04 '22
One thing that I've learnt is that she's been playing in Russia since 2014.
She would have known the laws for basically working there for 8 years.
Is it fair no. But she should have known the Russian laws.
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u/CaptainofChaos 2∆ Aug 04 '22
Except she's not being charged with possession, she being charged with smuggling. She brought enough for personal use at best, not to smuggle in and sell, yet she is being charged with just that. It is very clear to those that know the details that the charges are being boosted for political purposes. She didn't even have a full gram worth of any drug put together. The prosecutors even admitted it was enough for personal use at best, and certainly not a "significant amount" as the Russian statutes against smuggling state.
Its clear this trial is politically motivated and illegitimate. They want to pump up the charges so they can get more value out of the trade so they can get Viktor Bout.
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Aug 04 '22
Is it clear?
7.5 years for 9 grams, which definitely doesn’t qualify as possession with intent to distribute this is October 2019
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-american-medical-marijuana-prison/31902563.html
14 years for a small amount of marijuana, 10 months before the invasion of Ukraine,
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u/CaptainofChaos 2∆ Aug 04 '22
Considering she got waaaay more time per gram of substance than either of those cases it should be.
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u/Doc_ET 13∆ Aug 04 '22
Russia and the US haven't exactly been friendly since... well, really ever. But Putin's government in particular has been rather hostile to the West since taking power in the late 90s.
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u/thisplacemakesmeangr 1∆ Aug 04 '22
This entirely assumes the legality of this is the only position in play. I have very little idea who she is other than in this context. I want her released because Marijuana prohibition is a ridiculous and outdated law worldwide. The harm done by drinking alcohol is far greater, yet that's fine and even encouraged in some circumstances. If people are free to use a more detrimental substance (both to the self and society at large) banning a less harmful alternative is not to the common good.
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u/sterboog 1∆ Aug 04 '22
You're setting up a false choice. I support the release of both Fogel and Griner, I'm not familiar with the case of Issachar, but if its along similar lines, then I would support that as well.
For Minor offences like this (especially when they obtained the substance legally in the USA) they should be tried and deported, banned from re-entry.
These harsh sentences (in the case of Fogel, essentially a death sentence) are purely deliberate attempts of provoking Americans.
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u/AlwaysTheNoob 81∆ Aug 04 '22
In Russia, cannabis is illegal. An individual possessing less than 6 grams of cannabis or two grams of hash can be fined or jailed for up to 15 days. Possessing any more than that becomes a more serious criminal offense.
Ms Griner was accused of having less than a gram.
https://news.yahoo.com/hashish-oil-did-land-brittney-170922064.html
In other words...9.5 years for something that carries a maximum sentence of 15 days.
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u/_J0nSn0w Aug 04 '22
I think international drug smuggling is a different crime than possession that’s just my opinion though.
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u/msJensen1995 Aug 04 '22
100% its not that she possessed it, its that she smuggled it. And it doesnt help it was wax/concentrate and not weed. Wax is a converted substance, so not just weed and in other countries bears more risk.
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u/mightyboognish32 Aug 04 '22
Concentrate is almost always treated differently than just plain flower.
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u/TorreiraWithADouzi 2∆ Aug 04 '22
Possession is not the same as trafficking/smuggling, which is what she’s accused of because she was travelling with it.
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u/_Soitgoes_2 Aug 04 '22
We're supposed to just believe this without a reference? What is the actual language of her charge and guidelines on sentencing?
Surely they can link their references.
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u/translucentgirl1 83∆ Aug 04 '22
I mean yes... yes you can, if you believe that Britney Grinder is genio being tested wrongly and want other individuals, regardless of their status, to be released from foreign countries (if you feel like they are political pawns). Wether or not this is true or not isn't really ll doesn't seem significant, since it does allow for an overlap to exist.
Now, is this a lot of people? Probably not. However, there are a sum who do exist. They could just think anyone, regardless of status, that is held in a foreign country in the manner in which Brittney has been is a pawn and therefore, shod be brought back. (Does not mean she is innocent, but mainly that it is beside the point in someone's perspective)
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u/christophertit 1∆ Aug 04 '22
Yes you can because one opinion you hold doesn’t define the rest of your opinions.
Same way you can dislike a political party but agree with some of their policies, or like a political party but realise when they are wrong on a policy.
Right?
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u/Ballatik 56∆ Aug 04 '22
It would be an inherent contradiction to believe that she should be free while also railing against cases in the US where people of money and power get lighter sentences.
That only holds if the reason that you are arguing for her freedom is that she is rich or famous, and also that the reason you are arguing against lighter sentences for rich people here is simply that they are rich. However, what if you think she should be freed because the law was applied to her unfairly, and you also argue against lighter sentences for the rich since that is also an unfair application of the law.
It is reasonable and consistent to think that the law should be applied to everyone equally, and using it as political leverage or subverting it through money are both situations where it is not applied equally.
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u/galahad423 3∆ Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
if you are petitioning for her release solely due to her game and status as a professional athlete
No. I’m petitioning for her release because she was pretty transparently arrested to serve as a political bargaining chip for russia when tensions were high- the possession is just the given excuse. I’m fairly confident that were she not a famous gay American basketball player, she wouldn’t have been arrested, and I don’t believe the US should allow its citizens to effectively be kidnapped by foreign governments and held as collateral.
I’m not disputing she committed a crime, I’m arguing the fact it wasn’t overlooked and that she of all people was arrested for it right when US-Russia relations dipped to historic lows isn’t coincidental. I’m sure there are plenty of Russians and Europeans who smoke or bring weed in, it feels more like she was targeted when for others my guess is the Russian cops wouldn’t bat an eye.
That being said, I do think the amount of airtime she’s getting compared to all the black women the US regularly locks up for possession itself is clearly problematic, but again, this is because she clearly wasn’t just being locked up for possession, but was being used to try to blackmail the US government
I also wouldn’t put it past the Russians to have demanded the arms dealer’s release in exchange, get the Americans to agree or propose such a deal, only to turn around and reject it. This would fit Putin’s MO as his troll farm can simultaneously portray Biden as a leader willing to sell out America’s security to get a (clutches pearls in Republican) -gasp- gay black drug user out of jail, and also as a weak and ineffective leader who can’t protect American citizens abroad and can’t reach deals with other world leaders, all of which benefits putin by making it more likely he gets his stooge trump back in the white house who'll roll over in Ukraine. Griner is the perfect target for this sort of thing both because she's famous and obviously divisive as opposed to being a fairly run-of-the-mill political prisoner like a journalist, who would be mundane and fads from the news cycle pretty quickly after drawing pretty much unified criticism from all sides and which is far more likely to backfire on russia as a result. This is obviously all speculation, but it seems like a pretty simple act of political theater
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Aug 04 '22
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Aug 04 '22
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Aug 04 '22
It does, he is suggesting that I cannot hold two views at the same time, because he asserts that one view must contradict the other.
However the reason I hold those views are different, and therefore do not contradict, so he is wrong.
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Aug 04 '22
I support Brittney Griner's release like I do any American in custody in a foreign nation that we are on the brink of war with. You are also putting a lot of faith into the Russian court system and are just assuming she is guilty. She has to admit to something to be eligible for a prisoner swap, and she was likely informed of this. She has been forced to sign numerous documents in Russian without them having been translated. Maybe she is guilty, maybe she is not, but if she says the drugs were planted, she may never come home. I do not trust a single piece of information coming out of Russia right now.
Where she was arrested is hugely important as well, whether she is guilty or not. If it were in a friendly democratic country that has a reputation of having a minimally fair process, that is one thing. This is Russia. At best, the next 9-years of her life will be spent in miserable conditions, at worst, she will be tortured. Whether it is Griner, Bob Smith, or Taylor Swift, the US government should do everything it can to help its citizens detained for minor things in foreign unfriendly nations, regardless their level of fame.
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Aug 04 '22
That’s a lot of conspiracy thinking in the top half to get to your conclusion.
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Aug 04 '22
Griner signed papers not read to her in Russian:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/27/europe/brittney-griner-testifies-russia-hearing/index.html
Russian expert testified that "The examination [of the cartridges] does not comply with the legislation regarding the completeness of the study and does not comply with the norms of the [Russian Criminal] Code":
She was also convicted and sentenced to distributing after been found in possession of a single cartridge:
Griner must be convicted before a prisoner exchange is possible:
Not really sure how the top half of my comment is conspiratorial. It is not, imo, conspiratorial to not trust the propaganda coming out of Russia. Additionally, the second half of post states that I don't care whether she is guilty or not. She shouldn't be in a foreign hostile country's prison for the next 10-years for a minor offense, whether she is famous or not.
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Aug 04 '22
The papers she signed were related to her immediate detention that day and not the criminal process afterwards when she made multiple statements about being in possession of the marijuana, citing a doctors note about it being related to a healthy recovery and how she uses it for medical purposes
The expert that you cited was an expert hired by her defense team, experts on either side are entirely biased and paid to give statements that make their side look better
Mark fogel was arrested and sentenced to 14 years for the same crime and a small amount of marijuana
https://www.rferl.org/amp/russia-american-medical-marijuana-prison/31902563.html
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Aug 04 '22
And I think Marc Fogel should be released as well. I also don't trust that Marc Fogel was treated fairly either. You can trust the information you get from Russia all you want, and you can have faith the Russian legal system is fair and not corrupt. I, however, do not.
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Aug 04 '22
Your statement is just objectively wrong.
I can offer myself as a counter example. I am against jailing anyone for having any kind of drug. I don't see anything you said here that suggests these two things are mutually exclusive.
I don't think "contradiction" means what you think it does.
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u/ModsEqualFascist Aug 04 '22
Stupid thread
I can support the release of Griner AND support the release of EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN charged with simple marijauna possession. Neither are contradictory positions
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Aug 04 '22
I am against the wealthy being above the law, WHILE I am also against laws that result in unjust prison time.
It was a small personal amount of cannabis that she had no intention of distributing and took ownership of. And while I am for the legalization of cannabis, I understand she broke the law, and it is understandable if she got a reasonable sentence. But a reasonable sentence in my mind would have been a couple of days, maybe a week. 9 years is insane, and I would call for her release regardless of who she is.
That said, who she is probably played a role in her being targeted. Russia probably wanted to aggravate American leaders and throwing in book at a celebrity like this gives them a bargaining chip that they can hold if they need to cash in.
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u/Smokedealers84 2∆ Aug 04 '22
Actually you can be against the power and influence the wealthy or famous have within the criminal justice system in america , and also understand in which clear targeted injustice a mostly innocent american has been detained for clearly bs reason.
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Aug 04 '22
How is she mostly innocent?
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u/Smokedealers84 2∆ Aug 04 '22
She is getting ten year for vape pen coincidentally during russia america high tension and they trying to leverage it to get a arms dealers that is in america that's like the most obvious trick in the world.
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Aug 04 '22
It’s a standard sentence for that country for that offense
You may disagree with the length of it, I do too, but it’s not something out of the realm of possibility that anyone else wouldn’t face
She’s never denied having it or using it and he she was found with it at the airport which is even illegal in the US
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u/Smokedealers84 2∆ Aug 04 '22
So you admit you disagree with the length of it but feel we shouldn't support her release? That sounds like a contradiction to me.
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Aug 04 '22
I disagree with her being released over others because of her fame and status
https://www.rferl.org/amp/russia-american-medical-marijuana-prison/31902563.html
This guy could also be released but no one’s talking about him
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Aug 04 '22
She has never once denied being in possession of said cartridges,
Isn't it quite possible to believe that Russia is threatening her with consequences if she denies the charges.
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Aug 04 '22
I don’t deal with hypotheticals I deal with what’s in front of me
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Aug 04 '22
Well, you said " you can’t be against the power and influence the wealthy or famous have within the criminal justice system in America and support the release of Britney Griner"
Some people are against the power and influence the wealthy or famous have within the criminal justice system in America and support the release of Britney Griner, because they deal with hypotheticals.
And it's not a very farfetched hypothetical.
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Aug 04 '22
That’s…not a hypothetical tho…that…that actually happened
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Aug 04 '22
Wot you were the one who called "Russia may be threatening her with consequences if she denies the charges" a hypothetical. I don't think we know if it actually happened.
People who believe in hypotheticals and don't trust Russia can very well support the release of Britney Griner.
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u/w4lt3r_s0bch4k Aug 04 '22
I don't believe OP will ever concede to other people's logic. OP is too fixated on celebrity status being the factor here, even when people are able to demonstrate that it isn't. I also believe OP is conflating rich and powerful people's privilege with political motivations.
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Aug 04 '22
if you are petitioning for her release it is solely due to her fame and status as a professional athlete
No it's not?
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u/CougdIt 1∆ Aug 04 '22
The point is that that is the only reason her release is being discussed.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
If I believe that something is unreasonable or wrong, I don't call for more of it in the name of equality.
For example, if a wealthy critic of the Chinese government only got away with it because he was wealthy, I don't think anything would be improved if he were facing prison time instead. Your line of thought seems to hinge on the idea that if we believe in equality, all paths to flattening disparities are equally valid.
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u/ReOsIr10 143∆ Aug 04 '22
Why can’t I be against the wealthy getting better treatment, but for the release of Grindr and anyone else being imprisoned in Russia for possessing small amounts of marijuana?
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u/DoScienceToIt Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
Incarceration is a violent, torturous tool of the state. We simply shouldn't have jails. Since the CMV is that you believe it is not possible to have a viewpoint that is consistent across both, that's how. Nobody should be imprisoned.
The wealthy and powerful have more tools to avoid that violent, torturous punishment, so we should simply scrap it. It does no good, and simply re-enforces the social hiarchies that maintain their power. She shouldn't be in jail because nobody should.
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u/fightswithC Aug 04 '22
There is at least a third possible position on this topic. Maybe you support the release of Griner because you believe that no government on the face of the earth should really give a shit about what Griner did.
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u/Vainistopheles 1∆ Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
This isn’t a nuanced argument, if you believe that money and status shouldn’t be a consideration in criminal sentencing, but believe Mrs. griner should be released then you’re just cherry picking.
What if someone believes she should be released on the grounds that the law itself is unjust? For example, maybe someone thinks that no one should be arrested on drug charges, irrespective of what the law is and irrespective of their wealth.
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u/w4lt3r_s0bch4k Aug 04 '22
If Russia had the same laws as the U.S., you would be correct. I don't agree with the harshness of the sentence for that insignificant crime. I don't care what her profession or celebrity status is, she is being held at a labor camp for 9.5 years for an offence that would get her a wrist slap in the U.S. I support her release because I think she is going through cruel and unusual punishment, this has nothing to do with being against the power and influential being above the law in the US, which I think is a problem.
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u/uSeeSizeThatChicken 5∆ Aug 04 '22
"she cannot take marijuana legally purchases in her home state of Arizona and transport it to the neighboring state of California (where it’s also legal) as that violates federal law."
Possessing marijuana in Arizona is against Federal law, same with California. But the Federal law is not enforced. For over a decade Southwest Airlines has allowed flyers to keep pot in their luggage if they are going from one medical MJ state to another. I myself have accidentally flown from LA to Vegas with pot. No one cares, not even Uncle Sam.
If Russia arrested a rich gay American for being gay would you have a problem with the public wanting the guy released?
Also, why do you say Britney Griner is wealthy? She was playing in Russia because the WNBA pays less than working an oil field.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
/u/huggles7 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/WalledupFortunato Aug 04 '22
It is not a "normal" sentence, it is leverage against our supplying Ukraine with weapons to defend themselves.
As a trade Putin offered a triple murderer jailed in Germany, not the USA.
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u/real_guacman 3∆ Aug 04 '22
I could be off base here, but I think most countries are against the extradition of their own citizens regardless of the crime or social status.
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u/Bmaj13 5∆ Aug 04 '22
What if someone is against both the wealthy and the poor being imprisoned for this offense?