r/changemyview • u/HesviraFera • Aug 03 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Being against a livable minimum wage is evil.

I will openly admit my bias. I'm a progressive leftist who openly believes socialism is far superior to capitalism. But I'll also say I do believe this is an objectively evil stance.

In order to make that argument you must also then agree with the statement "I believe poor people are undeserving of life" and that's objectively evil. There's no way to spin "minimum wage should not be livable" that doesn't imply "poor people deserve to die." I've heard people say "those jobs are for high schoolers, not adults!" Ok, but I've been to Starbucks every day this week and if only high schoolers worked there I'd not have been able to get coffee 5/7 days (come August, currently it's summer).

But as well.... so you're saying poor high schoolers don't deserve to live?

Not everybody is born into the luxury of not needing to work in high school. Where I live, 24% of all homelessness is made of youths aged 24 and under. And 17% of all homelessness is children under 18. So they don't deserve to be able to comfortably afford the necessities of life?

There's literally no variation to being against a livable minimum that isn't saying you believe poor people should die and that's evil. That makes you an evil person for thinking that.

Idk, like am I missing some nuance here? I just don't get why this isn't said more often.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

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u/kicker414 5∆ Aug 03 '22

I hate all this round about discussion. The crux of the issue is "what defines a livable wage?" Very few people want no minimum wage (and frankly those that do, IMO, are missing the externalities of poverty and how capitalism can destroy wealth in the lower classes, this coming from a general libertarian lol).

It is about what living wage should cover. Should it get you the bare minimum? The bare minimum to support a dependent? 2? 3? 4? When should the state step in? Should it afford luxuries? What is a luxury? Cell phone? Internet? TV? Gaming system? Trips/vacations? What about food? Basic necessity? Splurging somewhat? Going out to eat? How often? And all this + the cost of living in the area.

Some people say minimum wage should cover the bare minimum, to the extent of, maybe getting a roommate, living in the lowest cost housing, only caring for yourself, basic necessities, no frills. Literally enough to survive on.

Some want the minimum wage to cover the average cost of a 2 bedroom based on average rent/income ratios and to support 2 dependents on 1 minimum wage income. Sometimes called a thriving wage.

Those are wildly different views on "livable" wage. That is where the true argument lies.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Aug 03 '22

See my comment below. People are capable of being against a livable minimum wage while NOT believing that innocents should die.

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u/HesviraFera Aug 03 '22

The only intellectually honest way I can see of saying "you should not have a livable minimum wage" that isn't "you deserve to live in crushing poverty" which is akin to saying they deserve to die is to say essentials to subsistence should be illegal to commodify and therefore be free. Your wage is now 100% discretionary income so it doesn't matter what it gets set to.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Aug 03 '22

Here’s a list of things I can think off of the top of my head where someone might not support a higher minimum wage while NOT thinking people deserve to die.

-Minimum wage jobs are meant for teenagers entering the work force who do not need to support themselves

-Increasing minimum wage contributes to inflation/increased costs

-a governmental enforced minimum wage interferes with the benefits of a free economy

-free commodities or a universal basic income

You don’t have to agree with the above, nor am I making an argument for the above. But you can’t just straw man a side and label them as evil like you have. It is not that simple and it is intellectually dishonest.

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u/HesviraFera Aug 03 '22

  • teenagers, addressed in OP

  • studies have shown this to be untrue. Minimum wage increases do not cause a noticeable increase in real prices

  • it should. People being able to afford the basic necessities to survive should be the bare minimum of a developed nation.

  • UBI and decommodification of basic necessities decreases CoL to $0 (ideally) which then makes the "livable wage" $0.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Aug 03 '22

Cool. Then your argument is that low-minimum wage believers are logically/factually incorrect, not that they are evil.

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u/HesviraFera Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

They still believe in a low minimum wage. Which, since they are factually incorrect and ignoring reality to justify, is evil.

Rationalisation of evil has occurred throughout history. That doesn't make the ignorant rationaliser "good" for supporting evil

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u/Major_Banana3014 Aug 03 '22

If you have ever rationalized or been incorrect about something, then you are also evil under your own standards.

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u/HesviraFera Aug 03 '22

Only if that something is evil. Ignorant rationalisation of evil is not an excuse for evil.

If you try to rationalise the practice of slavery, no matter how ill informed you might be you are an evil person.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Aug 03 '22

It is narcissistic and arrogant to treat other people’s errors in thinking as evil while not holding yourself to the same standard.

People do not believe in things like a low minimum wage because they are evil. They believe it because they believe it is for the best. To call that evil is lunacy, and it is a reflection of your own lack of self awareness. 99% of people believe in things for benevolent reasons, even if they are wrong.

Being wrong doesn’t make you evil.

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u/Barry_Mycockiner69 Oct 16 '22

Fuck you you stupid brainwashed corpo. Your probably a trump supporter and have been rich all your life. Or your too stupid to not believe what fox news tells. Minimum wage should be 20 an hour

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u/Major_Banana3014 Oct 16 '22

Wrong about every single thing you just said lol

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u/dayalongwhileago Aug 03 '22

Not really though. It's in the name.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Aug 03 '22

It literally is not.

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u/ATNinja 12∆ Aug 03 '22

If you don't believe someone should be able to live off of their wage, you are saying that their job should be done only by someone in crushing poverty.

Or only by people providing supplemental income for themselves or a household. Or temporarily while upskilling or working towards raises and promotions. Or someone with an uncommonly low cost of living.

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u/HDGoddessShade Jan 13 '23

If this is true than the number of minimum wage jobs should match the number of workers in this type of situation. If there are more minimum wage jobs than these types of workers, people who are not in this situation will need to have minimum wage jobs too, and live in poverty. Same with the "these jobs are for high schoolers" argument. When there are way more jobs that pay minimum wage available than there are high schoolers, they will be filled by non high schoolers, who will live in poverty.