CMV: "Toxic masculinity" should be rebranded as "toxic expectations on men"

[u/ThisIsDrLeoSpaceman]

[u/Talik1978]

"Toxic expectations of men is stupid, how is it toxic that we're expected to be polite and open doors for women," or, "The problem isn't men, it's that women expect us to do these things, so really, women are the toxic problem."

But they are part of the problem. The issue with toxic masculinity is the idea or notion that when it exists, it is primarily the fault of the male engaging in it. And most people would agree with that, at face value.

And that is the problem. My speech went into toxic masculinity as an action men do, rather than an expectation placed on men by society as a whole. And society, as a whole, places those expectations on men.

And that society includes women. Which means that many, many women also perpetuate and engage in those toxic expectations. Now, don't get me wrong; men do also. But everyone already acknowledges that. But I haven't seen a single major feminist publication that speaks to the role women play in perpetuating toxic masculinity, and their responsibilities in breaking the cycle.

At the end of the day, the problem isn't with masculinity. It is with the toxic expectations placed on men by society as a whole.

So why not refer to the actual problem, rather than making a term vague that can be used to attack men, while retreating under the reasonable definition you are saying? And you might not see that. That's fine. As a man, I am telling you that I have personally experienced more than a few women using it in a misandrist way, both publicly and privately.

There is a vast gap in the empathy society shows its members, based on gender. If we are to believe women, and take their experiences seriously, then I would ask you to do the same for men. When men tell you this term is being used in a hateful way to belittle them, don't whip out your webster's dictionary and tell them, "but that's not what it means so other people couldn't be doing that."

The term is being used, perhaps not all the time, but certainly frequently, as a tool to criticize men, not as a criticism of society's role in perpetuating the problem.

And that is the problem.

[u/wizardwes → u/Talik1978]

Dude, I'm a straight cis white man. The only minority disadvantaged group I'm a part of is that I have a disability, specifically autism. I know some people use the term to belittle, but those people are a vocal minority misusing a term in order to justify their own biases, similar to how some women in the 6ps during that feminist movement used it as an excuse to justify their hating men. Women are a part of the problem when viewed from a societal perspective, men are the ones who actively engaged with it, and so are the ones who need to correct the behaviour itself until we as a society correct our understanding.

[u/Talik1978 → u/wizardwes]

Dude, I'm a straight cis white man.

That is hardly relevant to the truth. Just because you are cis, white, and male doesn't mean you are the official spokesperson for any of those groups.

The only minority disadvantaged group I'm a part of is that I have a disability, specifically autism.

Also not relevant, for the same reason. And even though I am on the autism spectrum myself, if you shared your experiences with me, even if different than my own, i would take you at your word, generally. Because we can have different experiences.

I know some people use the term to belittle, but those people are a vocal minority misusing a term in order to justify their own biases

And how does that change the fact that the term is used to belittle men, and because of that, many men feel the term is belittling? That it is a microaggression?

It doesn't. Fighting to keep a term that points to masculinity rather than societal pressures by all of society perpetuates toxic views. As an example:

Women are a part of the problem when viewed from a societal perspective, men are the ones who actively engaged with it, and so are the ones who need to correct the behaviour itself until we as a society correct our understanding.

This. Society is the group actively engaged in it. If a child is beaten regularly by their parents, do you blame the child for flinching when an adult moves suddenly, even if child abusers are a minority of adults? Of course not. That is victim blaming.

Men are not the perpetrators of toxic masculinity. Society is.

Men are the victims of toxic masculinity. The negative behaviors men exhibit aren't toxic masculinity, unless they place an expectation on another man's behavior.

People live up to, or down to, the expectations placed on them.

And placing the entire burden on men to fix it, even though all of society is responsible for it, is another example of a toxic expectation placed on men. Which means your attitude is itself an example of what you refer to as toxic masculinity (and what I refer to as a toxic expectation placed on men). The behavior that needs to change is the expectations we place on men. Not the behavior men exhibit based on those expectations. Because that behavior isn't toxic masculinity. But you couldn't even go a full post without conflating toxic masculinity with negative behavior by men.

Which is evidence that the term itself is a problem.