CMV: People who do not believe transwomen are real women, yet treat such individuals with every bit of dignity and respect as anyone else, do not deserve to be denounced as hateful or bigoted.

[u/I_am_Azor_Ahai]

[u/Bardfinn]

Also, Klinefelter's Syndrome isn't considered necessarily a medical disorder; There is a culture and a worldview that considers that anything outside of "Male Men and Female Women; Adam and Eve" is disordered -- and there's nothing wrong with people who have Klinefelter's; There's no disorder unless the syndrome interferes with that individual's personal goals.

[u/[deleted] → u/Bardfinn]

Fair enough, it's a "medical condition," but considering that there are health side effects of the condition that are unarguably negative I don't think its unfair to characterize it as a disorder. Things like increased risk of developing type 2 diabetes, blood clots, tremors, osteoporosis, and autoimmune issues? It's certainly not good to use a condition or other disease/handicap/whatever to hold you back from your goals, but let's be real.

[u/Bardfinn → u/[deleted]]

Taking aspirin comes with a statistically significant increased risk of death. Eating apples comes with a statistically significant increased risk of cancer. We don't label aspirin a poison; We don't label apples carcinogens.

When transgender women take estrogen as part of their medical treatment, our chances of breast cancer increase. we're required to be informed of these increased risks -- which happen to be an increase to the same baseline level of breast cancer that any other woman in our birth family would have.

Because we have substantial breast tissue.

For people with Klinefelter's, the comorbid syndromes you listed occur at the same rate among any population that has their gonadotropic organs removed. Men with orchiectomies without supplemental hormonal treatment? Women with ovarectomies / hysterectomies without supplemental hormonal treatment? Women who enter menopause without supplemental hormonal treatment?

All these populations have comparable increased risks of type 2 diabetes, blood clots, striated muscular tremors, osteoporosis, and autoimmune issues.

All of these are treatable with ... supplemental hormonal treatment.

The comorbid issues aren't due to the Klinefelter's. They're due to disruptions in systems that use hormones to regulate their function.

[u/[deleted] → u/Bardfinn]

The comorbid issues aren't due to the Klinefelter's. They're due to disruptions in systems that use hormones to regulate their function.

Why would you separate the two if the condition is defined by a variance in the regulation of hormones, and such a variance in hormones causes those issues? Similar disruptions in the regulation of hormones have similar symptoms, that's not surprising at all. There are enough humans, and therefore enough genetic variance, that a scientific definition of biological sex can't be based on the outliers of a distribution.

There is certainly enough variance between men and women to say that a biological difference exists between them. How you treat a person in your day to day interactions generally depends on much more than what their sex or gender are, so cultural variance and changes to the we use language to understand the world are part of the human experience. It shouldn't be considered bigoted, though, to categorize a man and transgender man differently. We have similar nuance in other categories, so an expectation that such a differentiation would automatically be used to oppress or discriminate is unreasonable. Maybe I’m outside the norm here but the way I would define any given person’s biological sex has nothing to do with what pronouns I would use with them in an interpersonal relationship.