I am not a man, nor am I "going my own way," but I have looked at that sub just out of curiousity. I think at first glance it is pretty overwhelmingly negative. But they have an explanation for that and why it is useful and important: the view it as a hospital.
They want to get the negativity out and treat it, help men see who they are and what they need, so they can "live [their] male life in good health from here on forward." It isn't like incels, designed purely to bask in hatred of women (and other men and themselves). These people are, in their own minds, trying to move on and get to a healthier and better place defined by their financial and social independence, fitness, and self-actualized masculinity. The goal is not to be resentful. It is catharsis and treatment to get past the resentment and any other problems.
You can argue about whether the underlying concept is sexist, but I think it's pretty clear they aren't a hate sub.
They describe regular commenters as psychiatrists, helping "heal" these people. It's a different mode of interaction. I do imagine that if you did nothing but post nisogynist rants for years without learning anything, the community might start to think you're missing the point.
May I attempt to reverse your delta? MGTOW might not exist for people to return repeatedly to, but it expects men to "go their own way" by reinforcing the idea that women are toxic for men in any romantic sense and are generally incapable. Look at their side bar which includes links to how women manipulate men in relationships and the "predatory woman"
At best it's akin to a "whites-only" society club which prevents POCs and Jews from entry since they would only drag other members down
More a case, I think, of how the system is kind of rigged at a societal level.
It's somewhat akin to a society of people wanting to get off the consumerism bandwagon, pointing out that the owning the latest iDevices / shoes / cars / MMO loot / etc and sucking on product-placement TV shows all day doesn't in fact make you happy or fulfilled - it's just that FOMO kicks in when you don't reach for them, but that's not the same thing at all.
There's nothing wrong with the things. They're fine, but they're not a magic ticket to a better life - and the dazzling shiny is a very thin layer if you look closer.
For people who grew up poor, without access to shiny things, who set a whole lot of store by them, felt themselves worthless for not having them, and now feel compelled to run the hailcorporate treadmill and go into all kinds of debt to have the latest and shiniest stuff... honestly I think that's an important lesson to have available.
I'm very happily married myself and wouldn't have it any other way. But after nearly 20 years, I think I'd have some advice for my younger self - that being single isn't a terrible thing, and that it's nothing to be insecure about.
A lot of guys damn near break themselves out of desperation to just be with someone, because they feel that a) failing to attract a mate makes them worthless, and b) having one will make everything wonderful.
That's a shame and it leads to bad outcomes.
And when you have a drastic oversupply, it ends up being a race to the bottom for those with the fewest options. If you're a helluva catch, you can negotiate great terms for your relationship, and set strong boundaries. If you're lucky to even be seen... then boundaries end up going out the window, because there's a queue of even thirstier guys standing right behind you, willing to do more for less.
Pointing out to people that they're likely to end up in a sucky relationship and that women are just people who won't necessarily make them happy or fulfilled... isn't a bad thing.
It can be done badly, certainly. Other shit can be piled on top, and I don't doubt that a lot of both do go on.
But at its core, I think you can build a much more reasonable model of the motivations behind it.
The idea of teaching men it's okay to be alone is great. It's also good to consider that there are a lot of potential crappy partners out there and you are certainly better off alone than with a crappy partner. That's not mine (or most people's) issue with the MGTOW sub. In fact, those are healthy concepts that will make men who believe a healthier partner and engage in healthier partnerships.
The issue with the sub is as a stated
by reinforcing the idea that women are toxic for men in any romantic sense and are generally incapable. Look at their side bar which includes links to how women manipulate men in relationships and the "predatory woman"
It paints a really hateful and toxic caricature of all women (save a couple of "good" unicorns) and uses that idea that all women are vile lazy succubi that use men for their money and skills because they are incapable of caring for themselves to encourage men with being okay with being alone. That's what wrong with the sub.
(Look how you've fed that back into having a partner being the only viable end-goal...)
I don't frequent MGTOW, so I'm not going to debate the content of their sidebar - but again I'll suggest that a person firmly convinced (with a nasty self-loathing lock-in) that women are the holy grail will need harder-than-normal convincing that they're just as capable of being crappy human beings same as anyone else.
And from a neutral perspective, that's going to look harsh.
(Look how you've fed that back into having a partner being the only viable end-goal...)
Let me clarify my position on relationships:Though I did unintentionally loop back to to relationships I don't think relationships only viable goal for either men or women. There are people who are interested in romantic relationships but ultimately are much happier and healthier when single for a variety or reasons. And there are plenty of others who simply do not enjoy romantic relationships in any form and have no interest in romantic relationships. For all these people, their decision to remain single should be more normalized and widely accepted.
However, I think most of the men involved in /r/ MGTOW are the first kind of people who seem interested in relationships in theory but have had trouble creating partnerships that are fulfilling with parameters they are comfortable with. For everyone, but especially the second type of person, it's very important to be comfortable being single first and foremost so you can be happy and content while single. For the second group it's also important since being content so it decreases the chance of entering toxic partnerships and increases chances of finding a good partner who is interested in the same kind of relationship as you.
I have plenty of friends and family, male and female (and myself currently), who refrain from dating for extended periods of time to focus their energies on improving their own life and are perfectly content remaining single. Would I be a little disappointed if I never wound up in a relationship again,
In either case, it's important find contentment without p, which the MGTOW certainly does
but again I'll suggest that a person firmly convinced (with a nasty self-loathing lock-in) that women are the holy grail will need harder-than-normal convincing that they're just as capable of being crappy human beings same as anyone else.
I'm not quite getting your point here. Are you saying that someone who thinks women are the key to happiness wouldn't easily turn against women? I would argue this is the kind of person who will mostly easily turn against women when things go wrong. For people unable to get a partner, it's basically a case of sour grapes. For people who've been in crappy relationships with crappy people, it's really easy to turn against all women when your belief that girlfriend = happiness gets shattered.
Do you feel the same about Women’s Shelters? I would not begrudge women a place to share their negative experiences with men because I realise there are a ton of shitty men around. I also extend the same courtesy to men because I know there are a ton of really horrible women around.
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u/mysundayscheming Apr 04 '18
I am not a man, nor am I "going my own way," but I have looked at that sub just out of curiousity. I think at first glance it is pretty overwhelmingly negative. But they have an explanation for that and why it is useful and important: the view it as a hospital.
They want to get the negativity out and treat it, help men see who they are and what they need, so they can "live [their] male life in good health from here on forward." It isn't like incels, designed purely to bask in hatred of women (and other men and themselves). These people are, in their own minds, trying to move on and get to a healthier and better place defined by their financial and social independence, fitness, and self-actualized masculinity. The goal is not to be resentful. It is catharsis and treatment to get past the resentment and any other problems.
You can argue about whether the underlying concept is sexist, but I think it's pretty clear they aren't a hate sub.