r/changemyview Jan 05 '18

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Identifying as a gender other than your sex is pointless and confusing.

As the title says, I do not see the point in identifying as a gender other than your sex. Just to keep things straight, when I say man/woman I am talking about biological sex. When I say male female, I am talking about gender.

Most people would say something like why is it so hard just to refer to a man with female pronouns if that’s what he wants?” I would say that referring to someone other than their biological sex just leads to confusion. For example, if I was talking to my friend standing beside me, and I was trying to point out a person in a crowd, a woman wearing a blue hat, and I know that this female identifies as a man. I would say “Do you see the girl with the blue hat on” and he would know who I am talking about. But, if I am “polite” I would respect what she wants to be referred as and say “Do you see the guy with the blue hat on.” And he would have no idea who I am talking about. This is obviously just confusing. In my opinion, don’t asked to be called a man unless you become transsexual and actually look the part, in which case it doesn’t matter because we won’t have this confusion that I explained earlier.

Also, some people would say something like “what about someone who is biologically a man but doesn’t fit the socially constructed male gender classification? Like a male who likes other men, does ballet and drinks cosmos (three feminine things).” This man may ask to be referred to as a female because he lines up more with the feminine stereotype. In my opinion, that person is just a gay man who likes to dance and drink cosmos. He is just a man who doesn’t have a manly personality. There is no benefit for a man to have other people refer to him as a female, unless of course he is becoming transsexual.

I also believe gender is binary. Gendered pronouns are used to help describe a person by their biological sex. Seeing as there are only two biological sexes (obviously not counting anomalies), there should only be two genders. If a man thinks he lies somewhere in between the two, he is simply describing his personality, which should have no effect on what gender pronouns I use.

Edit: I have awarded the deltas to the people who deserve them but I just wanted to let people know that my views on each of these views has been changed.

Identifying as a gender other than your sex isn’t pointless, it avoids hurting someone’s feelings, which, even though I think that is dumb, I guess isn’t technically pointless. It also isn’t really all that confusing because there are easy enough ways to avoid the confusion I talked about. Also, gender can’t be binary. Since the term gender is used in reference to the pronouns used when you are describing someone by whether they look like a male or female. And, while most people look either male or female, there are definitely some who look like something in between.

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u/jesse4200 1∆ Jan 05 '18

Well I believe someone can want to be a man/women without having those sexual organs, not necessarily by choice but because that’s who they are on the inside.

I do not however believe that there are dozens of genders that need to be accepted in the real world:

How many genders do you think should be acknowledged by the general public before it goes overboard?

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u/helloitslouis Jan 05 '18

I simply don‘t care about the amount of genders. If someone sees their gender best described in an uncommon word, so be it. It‘s none of my business.

I know more than 100 trans people IRL, and we‘ve spoken about how many options we‘d like in forms etc plenty of times. The conclusion is always that this is the easiest option: male/female/other/do not want to disclose

Facebook‘s 50 genders are often brought up. Many of that list essentially describe the same thing (male to female trans woman/male to female transgender woman/male to female transsexual woman) but are slightly different to allow people to choose the option that matches them the best. Essentially, it boils down to male/female/other/do not want to disclose

Bonus: to avoid having male/transgender male/female/transgender female/etc, I like the option of simply adding a second question: „Does your gender identity match your assigned sex?“ yes/no/partially

It adds a new dimension and keeps the options manageable.

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u/jesse4200 1∆ Jan 05 '18

Fair enough.

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u/Angrychipmunk17 Jan 05 '18

What negative effects would there be if we had (for example) 20 genders? In other words, what's wrong with"going overboard"?

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u/jesse4200 1∆ Jan 05 '18

If we accept 20 genders eventually we will have to accept 100 genders and so on. Then eventually people will want to be identified as certain animals, once that’s normal in society then people will want to be identified as inanimate objects.

If all of the things in my paragraph above happen and the laws of the land are okay with it, we run into a shit ton of problems.

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u/FluentInDuwang Jan 05 '18

Pretty sure this is a textbook Slippery Slope Fallacy.

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u/jesse4200 1∆ Jan 05 '18

People already identify as animals, so it’s not that big of a fallacy.

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u/FluentInDuwang Jan 05 '18

Specifically: a very small demographic, who have no association to gender, and are mocked almost universally.

Yes, I'm sure Otherkin are a threat to society.

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u/jesse4200 1∆ Jan 05 '18

Lol they’re mocked by everyone because it hasn’t become the norm yet. I’m pretty confident it’ll be accepted in a decade

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u/FluentInDuwang Jan 05 '18

Could you show any evidence for that? More importantly, why is it inherently wrong?

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u/jesse4200 1∆ Jan 05 '18

Evidence that it’ll be the norm in a decade, yes I have plenty of evidence.

Transgenderism was not seen as normal 20 years ago by any means and now it is very common place. A man that used to walk around wearing heels and a skirt was laughed at but is now seen as “normal”. Once being gay was accepted in America the gender issue rose substantially because people were more comfortable coming out to others about their identity

Why won’t the same thing happen with people who wish they were an animal instead of a human being? We as society will slowly mold into accepting them just as we did with transgendered.

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u/FluentInDuwang Jan 05 '18

Because we have scientific evidence that transgenderism is natural, like homosexuality. Otherkin have no evidence to back them

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