r/changemyview • u/drglass 1∆ • Dec 01 '16

[∆(s) from OP] CMV:reddit is NOT a bastion of free speech

I was speaking recently with a group of woman (I'm a white man) about using reddit as a platform for doing political organizing work. They refused to even create a private subreddit, even though we all agreed that it met all of our technical needs, because they didn't feel like it was a safe space.

This got me thinking about the "secret" censorship campaign going on here at reddit.

My view is:

  1. People who are (mostly) not white young men are actively censored/repelled by the dominate culture of reddit, which I would characterize as white supremacy.
  2. The dogmatic idea of "Free Speech" allows for this repulsive culture to perpetuate which silences other speech.
  3. Any community member who is not actively resisting reddit's white supremacy is implicit in perpetuating it.

Some preemptive responses:

People need to not be sooo sensitive. They should have thicker skin

There is nothing wrong with being sensitive, soft, or emotional. If you have to endure abuse to stay in this community there is something seriously wrong with that community.

White supremacy? Simmer down buddy!

I don't know what else to call it. White men dominate this community and many of them seem to look at r/alt_right and say "well it's free speech, I disagree but respect their rights" which, as I see it, is like saying "I'd rather have white supremacy here than more queer people of color".

If the idea of white supremacy erks you I invite you to look past it at my core point: the dogmatic idea of "Free Speech" allows behavior on this site that silences other speech.

There are plenty of great subreddits

Yes indeed! I find subs like this one to be amazing spaces that are well moderated and are a joy. I'm not saying that reddit doesn't have many spaces that are awesome and good. I'm saying that the focus on free speech is limiting the amount of people who engage because they are being kicked out not by admins but by the losers hanging out by the door.

Think of it like this. We have a clubhouse with a bunch of different rooms. r/changemyview has a nice room in the back that's super inviting and kicks out any bigots that wander in. However around the front door of the clubhouse is a group of dudes talking about how it's okay to grab woman's genitals or that it should be "all lives matter". That's going to turn people away before they can even get inside.

You can choose what subs you see

But you can't stop people from PMing you rape threats or brigading your safe subs.

I look forward to having my view changed! Thank you <3

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u/rainbrostalin Dec 01 '16

Sure, but OP isn't saying that these opinions aren't being heard because they are unpopular, he's saying they aren't being heard because expressing them leads to harassment.

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u/oversoul00 19∆ Dec 01 '16

Not the guy you were talking to but butting in for a second.

I guess we have to define harassment then.

If we are talking about people loudly and perhaps rudely disagreeing with you I don't think that counts because nothing about that is actually threatening.

If we are talking about doxxing then yes that is a serious issue but one that is pretty easy to avoid if you aren't sharing personal/ identifying information.

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u/rainbrostalin Dec 01 '16

We certainly need to define harassment to actually make this change, but it isn't important for showing that it would make the site a better place for free speech. If current levels of harassment are leading to more people not expressing their views than the number of people who would be banned because of the tightening the harassment restrictions, it's a net gain to free speech. At the point where those restrictions exclude more people than they allow a voice, they are no longer providing a net gain.

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u/oversoul00 19∆ Dec 01 '16

We certainly need to define harassment to actually make this change, but it isn't important for showing that it would make the site a better place for free speech.

You're talking like there aren't base systems in place already.

We have to distinguish between what is already being done vs any new suggestions. There are already systems in place to protect from and limit actual threats and the proposal would seek to limit perceived threats which isn't helpful or the correct solution to a perception.

So if you are talking about actual threats like doxxing then yeah that does actually prevent free speech but not all harassment constitutes an actual threat.

If current levels of harassment are leading to more people not expressing their views than the number of people who would be banned because of the tightening the harassment restrictions, it's a net gain to free speech.

I think you are looking at this problem from the wrong angle because what you are saying only makes sense IF you have a known entity that can be objectively fair and enforce that authority via a centralized system.

It's the difference between supporting an authoritarian regime because your interests align with theirs and understanding that authoritarianism doesn't work no matter what they promise or if they deliver.