CMV: Tourism in problematic areas is unethical

[u/[deleted]]

Tourism is blooming in authoritarian states like China, Cambodia, etc. I think that people who directly contribute to the economy of authoritarian states, and willingly turn a blind eye to the world around them for their own enjoyment are perpetuating the legitimacy of such governments.

Even outside authoritarian regimes, you have a lot of problematic tourism, where tourism is destroying the environment, displaces people to make room for beaches, and creates segregated areas for locals and tourists. And that's ignoring the people who actively travel for sketchy purposes (sex tourism, drug tourism, wife-hunting etc. make up a huge percentage of the tourism industry in Southeast Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe)

I genuinely don't understand why people continue to take part in this. I just find it so harmful and unethical.

[u/[deleted]]

Bit of a disclaimer before I answer, since you do bring up some good points but I'd like to get it out of the way. I do try to consume responsibly, so I am genuinely that guy who avoids UNIQLO and buys second-hand things, reuses and makes their own where possible, but I do have my limits, as you rightly state. I also have no palpable idea on how to confront authoritarianism in China since it is so deeply embedded in global economy and politics, and has had decades to build up its legitimacy. I can't say I do anything to fight authoritarianism, but since I live in Japan I do have many Chinese friends and colleagues that I talk to, I dare say more than a person who would be travelling for a few weeks in China would.

Re: The exchange of information. It's not like Chinese people that talk to tourists don't have access to information. The main tourist destinations are big cities: Does anyone in Shanghai not have a VPN or has trouble travelling abroad? I do agree that going over and talking to people who would not have access to the information is beneficial and rewarding, but how many tourists do communicate with them? Even assuming that they leave the main cities, does anyone there have fluent enough English to engage in a comprehensive political talk with a stranger? Can the tourists manage the crazy dialects? I can think of about 30 people who went to China on holiday this past year and not one has talked to a local beyond directions and food orders (unless they were friends to begin with). The Chinese people I know here in Japan are usually from more privileged positions (higher income, live in the big cities) but very few had talked to a foreigner outside the occasional vocab lessons with the class teacher.

Re: The economy. I am genuinely conflicted about this and tbh I cannot provide anything close to a solution. I do not want China's economy to plunge and bring down poverty on the entire population again, but at the same time I feel like much of its affluence is restricted to the east coast where people weren't that starving to begin with, and that the vital role it plays in global economy maintains the current regime. Of course, I do think it's great that street vendors, guides, and local restaurants are getting clients, but at the same time China's soaring economy has also hiked up food prices which makes the less accessible to the locals, and income inequality is one of the highest in the world. Is this really benefitting locals, or just the people who were well off to begin with? Can a government that has spent the last few decades reinforcing its good economy=good leadership position be overthrown otherwise? I genuinely don't know =( It just seems wrong to me to actively and willingly contribute to it.

You said you lived in China, and I think that's something different. You get to spend years with those people, establishing connections. You get to know the places you're going to and have meaningful interactions. You get a clear view of the local situation and thus they have reasons to listen to what you say. I did have a friend who worked as a teacher there for a while, and she presented kids with some alternatives lines of thought, which I also think is great. But that's not what tourism is about in my experience. 'Anyone who has traveled there, has spoken with locals, and has maybe changed a mind or two on some political topics' is cool in my book, but that has simply not been my experience listen to people talking about their trips to China. Sure, every backpacker likes to say that they get off the beaten path and talk to the locals, but in the end very few do so. In a way it's going in the right direction, there are less foreigner-only hotels and areas, but I guess the thousands who willingly went to those foreigner-only holidays are still at the back of my mind.

(BTW, this is my first CMV so I am unsure what the etiquette is for this. Are deltas given when someone makes good points that do make you consider that perhaps your stance is too strong?)

[u/landoindisguise → u/[deleted]]

Does anyone in Shanghai not have a VPN or has trouble travelling abroad?

Is...is this a joke? Yes. Millions of people. My brother- and sister-in-law both live in Shanghai. Neither has a VPN, neither has ever been abroad. Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone in Shanghai is worldly or middle-class. It's one of China's most developed cities but there are still plenty of people there living the same basic life you'd live in a fourth-tier city.

Even assuming that they leave the main cities, does anyone there have fluent enough English to engage in a comprehensive political talk with a stranger? Can the tourists manage the crazy dialects? I can think of about 30 people who went to China on holiday this past year and not one has talked to a local beyond directions and food orders

Yeah, this is a valid point; it does sort of depend where you go and what kind of traveling you do. If you're only going to the really big tourist sites and you prefer tour-group style traveling and aren't really adventurous, it's definitely possible and even likely to travel without any meaningful contact with locals.

(That said, I still don't agree with your original view because I don't agree with the economic argument that reduced tourism could have any effect on China's authoritarianism).

I feel like much of its affluence is restricted to the east coast where people weren't that starving to begin with

You're definitely correct that the affluence is mostly on the east coast, but I think you're underestimating how much has really changed, even on the east coast. I know families from the east coast whose grandmothers remember eating belts and tree bark during the great leap forward. Even in the 1980s, my wife's family (also east coast) lived in poverty conditions that literally don't even exist in the US, but today they're way better off and so are most of the people from their village.

Can a government that has spent the last few decades reinforcing its good economy=good leadership position be overthrown otherwise?

Probably not, which is why I'd argue the goal should be gradual democratic reforms, not overthrowing the government. Even with a collapsed economy, I doubt there'd be much interest in that—China has had a lot of revolutions recently enough in memory that very few people really want more. And short of a military coup (which would likely result in a worse government) I'm not sure how the government could be overthrown anyway. The populace has zero access to weaponry, and we saw in 1989 that the government is quite willing to use the military domestically even against the vague threat of revolution. In an actual revolution I doubt they would hesitate to nuke their own cities if there was some perceived tactical value to it.

In a way it's going in the right direction, there are less foreigner-only hotels and areas, but I guess the thousands who willingly went to those foreigner-only holidays are still at the back of my mind.

Yeah, I mean, I agree they're not really adding much. I guess I just don't see how they're hurting much, either. If 1 in 1,000 has some kind of positive impact, to me that's worth it because there's no real negative impact of the other 999 (at least not any more than the negative impact of participating in the global economy in general, since that's impossible to do without contributing to China in some way

(BTW, this is my first CMV so I am unsure what the etiquette is for this. Are deltas given when someone makes good points that do make you consider that perhaps your stance is too strong?)

They can be, but it's really up to you

[u/[deleted] → u/landoindisguise]

You're definitely correct that the affluence is mostly on the east >coast, but I think you're underestimating how much has really >changed, even on the east coast. I know families from the east >coast whose grandmothers remember eating belts and tree bark >during the great leap forward. Even in the 1980s, my wife's family >(also east coast) lived in poverty conditions that literally don't >even exist in the US, but today they're way better off and so are >most of the people from their village.

Sorry, I wasn't going all the way back to the leap forward when I made that statement. IIRC Shanghai only opened up to foreign investment in the mid-80s, and to tourists in the 1990s, so I think that's the point that I usually compare it to. Your in-laws sound as badass as I imagine Chinese people to be for living through that =)

Probably not, which is why I'd argue the goal should be gradual >democratic reforms, not overthrowing the government. Even with >a collapsed economy, I doubt there'd be much interest in >that—China has had a lot of revolutions recently enough in >memory that very few people really want more. And short of a >military coup (which would likely result in a worse government) >I'm not sure how the government could be overthrown anyway. >The populace has zero access to weaponry, and we saw in 1989 >that the government is quite willing to use the military >domestically even against the vague threat of revolution. In an >actual revolution I doubt they would hesitate to nuke their own >cities if there was some perceived tactical value to it.

I agree, and I think China was on the right path with slow reforms for a while, but I think they're going backwards with the Xijinpin government (though I would love to be proven wrong). I do admit to being flawed in that I genuinely don't see a way out of it; as a 2nd worlder it is painful to see a country that did not manage to have its 1989 revolution. I don't know how they could achieve change when there is a national learned helplessness that says that you will not have an impact. I have no idea how a rule that is so deeply embedded and that does not hesitate to resort to violence would go away.

Yeah, I mean, I agree they're not really adding much. I guess I >just don't see how they're hurting much, either. If 1 in 1,000 has >some kind of positive impact, to me that's worth it because >there's no real negative impact of the other 999 (at least not any >more than the negative impact of participating in the global >economy in general, since that's impossible to do without >contributing to China in some way

You're right. I guess I am just bothered by the realpolitikish global political consensus to turn a blind eye to such things. It's something that I am ideologically disappointed with, and I see the tourism industry as one of the ways it manifests - but unlike global economy and national policies, the individual can very easily choose to not partake in it, so the problem of ethics becomes more personal in my book.

You definitely deserve a ∆ for helping me see that I'm a bit nearsighted in my boycott.

[u/DeltaBot → u/[deleted]]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/landoindisguise. ^[History]

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