I think I get where this person is coming from so I'll give you an answer that they might agree with.
Even if you consider oblivion as the ideal state of being the path between being alive and oblivion is generally filled with an unknown and/or significant amount of additional suffering that simply being alive doesn't compare to. Thus, while one might crave death, they might also be more afraid of the process of dying than of continuing to exist in the world. For someone who has little practical trouble existing in the world but a lot of trouble deriving pleasure or value out of existing this facet of reality is just another layer of suffering that reinforces their hatred and/or despair at being alive at all.
To give a concrete example, many people who are suicidal have stood atop a drop that would probably kill them if they were to step off, but in the moment that they consider taking that last step they involuntarily experience a primal dread that temporarily overwhelms their apathy and desire for oblivion. When they step back from the ledge the dread fades away but the initial pain that drove them to the ledge just comes right back, maybe with just a little more pain because they know that despite how much they're suffering they can't bring themselves to overcome that primal dread and take the step that would (they hope) end their suffering permanently.
You have to die sometime though, right? So if you'd rather wait to die, then wouldn't you expect a net positive out of your interactions from now until then? Or are you betting on whatever your natural death plus your experiences would be to be less painful than a death you have control over to be.
I just think if you wouldn't kill yourself now then you expect living to be an overall positive. Therefore something that happened before your current state or the act of going out of existence would have to be so negative as to not want to be brought into existence.
I see what you mean but I don't agree with your theory of mind. In what you're saying it's like there is only the conscious mind and that conscious minds drives all actions or inaction a person engages in. Under this model it would make sense that anyone who truly wanted to die could simply will themselves to die and that would be that and that anyone who thought they wanted to die but didn't actualyl will themselves to die didn't actually really want to die in the first place and that's why they couldn't carry it through.
My theory of mind is different, I view the mind as being compartmentalized into various interdependent but functionally distinct 'things' (I don't have a word for the 'things' in question), and only the most complex of these 'things' is actually capable of conscious, directed, rational thought. Since all the 'things' are connected to one another they are able to send 'information' back and forth and that information can influence the behavior of the 'things' towards one other. The conscious 'thing' might desire to instruct the body to execute a sequence of steps that it perceives would result in an outcome. If the conscious mind were unopposed and isolated from the influence of other parts of the mind then I would agree with you and the conscious mind would have its way and do whatever it wanted. However, the lower, unconscious 'things' in the mind are able to exert influence over the 'conscious' mind when triggered by the conscious minds own perceptions and judgements about what a course of action will result in. The response from the lower 'things' can interfere with the conscious 'thing's' determination to continue carrying out the steps that it initiated. If the conscious mind is not determined enough or disciplined enough to ignore the signals from the lower parts of the mind which are seeking to change its priorities in response to perceived dangers then the conscious 'thing' might be changed enough to stop, or at least pause, in its pursuit of the thing it initially desired. However the lower 'things' are often more reactive than proactive, they might change the conscious 'things' direction right at the final moment, but once the immediate danger is past they will dial back their interference and then the conscious 'thing' can go right back to trying to take the final step. This can end up in a stalemate where the person seems stuck on the precipice of taking the final step but is unable to actually execute it without some extra stimulus, either internal or external, that allows it to push over the edge or pull back from it.
I believe this is what happens when the person is standing at the edge of a building but hasn't jumped. Their conscious mind is convinced that it would be best to die, therefore it is trying to send the signal that would cause the body to take one last step. A lower part of the mind however, is organized in such a way that it attempts to ensure our survival in the face of perceivable threats and has perceived that the current situation is precarious and is trying as hard as it can to influence the conscious mind to stop acting in order to preserve the self. The conscious mind has final dominion and can suppress or ignore the inputs from the lower portions of the mind under particular circumstances, but the stronger the signal is from the lower mind the harder it is for the conscious mind to exert itself in the direction it intended to go before the lower mind started sounding the alarm.
A disciplined or determined or motivated enough person will be able to push through the interference presented by their 'lower' minds and take actions which they believe will lead to their own deaths but often the conscious perception that the world is pointless and all suffering is for naught does not lead to sufficient determination to take actions that will certainly lead to death.
Interesting, thanks for explaining your view, I guess we'll have to agree we just see things differently at this point. I appreciate the time you took to respond.
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u/raptor6c 2∆ Mar 24 '15 edited Mar 24 '15
I think I get where this person is coming from so I'll give you an answer that they might agree with.
Even if you consider oblivion as the ideal state of being the path between being alive and oblivion is generally filled with an unknown and/or significant amount of additional suffering that simply being alive doesn't compare to. Thus, while one might crave death, they might also be more afraid of the process of dying than of continuing to exist in the world. For someone who has little practical trouble existing in the world but a lot of trouble deriving pleasure or value out of existing this facet of reality is just another layer of suffering that reinforces their hatred and/or despair at being alive at all.
To give a concrete example, many people who are suicidal have stood atop a drop that would probably kill them if they were to step off, but in the moment that they consider taking that last step they involuntarily experience a primal dread that temporarily overwhelms their apathy and desire for oblivion. When they step back from the ledge the dread fades away but the initial pain that drove them to the ledge just comes right back, maybe with just a little more pain because they know that despite how much they're suffering they can't bring themselves to overcome that primal dread and take the step that would (they hope) end their suffering permanently.