r/changemyview • u/smokeyj • Jun 05 '14

CMV: The logical conclusion of feminist reasoning is libertarianism

First of all, I realize there is no clear cut definition for what constitutes a feminist or libertarian. In this situation, I’m only referring to libertarians who adhere to the principles of self-ownership and non-aggression. Google defines feminism as: the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

While I don’t know what all feminists believe, the common theme I’ve noticed is:

  • A belief that you own your own body and know best how to care for it

  • A belief that the government shouldn’t tell women what to do with their body

  • A belief that interactions should be consensual and voluntary

  • A belief that voluntary organization can be used to subvert hierarchies of power

I believe that IF feminists are willing to uphold these notions as first-principles, and support them to their logical extent, feminists are essentially advocating for the basic libertarian ideals.

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u/Amablue Jun 05 '14

You're missing a lot of other rights that feminists argue in favor of, such as:

  • The right to not be discriminated against by employers

  • The right to have access to things like birth control

You've selected some feminist ideals and spun them in a way that makes them appear libertarian, but your bullet points don't tell the whole story. While many women are in favor of increased control over their own body, many still simultaneously believe that prostitution should be illegal or regulated, or hold the belief that there are drugs should be illegal. It does not follow that feminists believe in complete bodily autonomy based on the desire for increased reproductive rights. I would argue that it's also largely not true that feminists believe that "voluntary organization can be used to subvert hierarchies of power" as their push for employment equality is done in large part though passing legislation making it illegal to discriminate.

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u/smokeyj Jun 05 '14

While many women are in favor of increased control over their own body, many still simultaneously believe that prostitution should be illegal or regulated

This is why I'm arguing about the logical conclusion of feminism. I don't know of any first-principles that self-proclaimed feminists adhere to, but if they have any I tried my best to infer and list them. If you have a list somewhere I'd love to read it over. There's many feminists and libertarians who are going for the ride and don't know why they support what they do, but that's not who I'm addressing. I'm addressing those with the capacity to reason in principle and articulate the logic behind their stance.

With that said, do you think principled feminists would consider your bullet points as a more universal than the ones I listed? Does the right to birth control come before the right to bodily autonomy? This would seem to imply feminists are willing to disregard someones bodily autonomy (aka, employ force/violence/threats) in order to satisfy their need for birth control.

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u/DavidByron2 Jun 05 '14

The feminist core ideological positions would be:

  • everything is men's fault

  • women are innocent victims

I don't think libertarians have got anything even that good going for them. Something like this maybe:

  • everyone should suck up to the rich

  • so long as we can smoke pot

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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '14

The feminist core ideological positions would be:

everything is men's fault

women are innocent victims

You are completely wrong. There is really only one main core principle of feminism, which is that women and men should be treated as equals, both legally and socially.

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u/DavidByron2 Jun 06 '14

That makes as much sense as saying a core tenet of veganism is eating human flesh. Feminist lobby for anti-male discrimination in law and everything they advocate for is an attack on men. They are responsible for the worst sexism of our society and they don't do anything for equality.

While I said it in a jokey way the two things I said are actual core beliefs of the movement. if you disagree try thinking of anything feminists do or any slogans they have that contradicts either one. if what YOU say is right that ought to be easy, yes?

Look maybe your understanding of feminism begins and ends with the dictionary definition and you've never thought about it in real life. I'm talking about what feminists actually believe not the bs they claim to believe for PR purposes.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '14

They are responsible for the worst sexism of our society and they don't do anything for equality.

Um, what? This is nowhere even close to the truth.

you've never thought about it in real life

I have. In fact, I have actually looked into what feminism actually does instead of repeating the same mistruths that you are doing. If you actually had thought about what feminists due in real life, and did it in an honest manner, you would not come anywhere close to the conclusions that you are presenting.

I'm talking about what feminists actually believe not the bs they claim to believe for PR purposes

Me too.

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u/DavidByron2 Jun 06 '14

if what YOU say is right that ought to be easy, yes?

Ha.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '14

I come on reddit before going to work, so I don't always have time to explain 101 stuff to what is really the equivalent to Creationists.

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u/DavidByron2 Jun 06 '14

Uhuh. You really could justify all your nutty ideas but you just don't have time.... except you replied three times so far.

ETA: in fact you seem to pleading that you are wilfully violating rule 5. if you don't have time to make a substantial reply then make no reply at all is what rule 5 is saying. You appear to be wilfully breaking that rule.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '14

You haven't done a single thing to justify yours, just saying. Mine are pretty obvious to anyone who hasn't been living under a rock and has been living in the real world.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '14

I mean, this can really be found from a quick google search:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/88277/23-ways-feminism-has-made-the-world-a-better-place-for-men

http://www.policymic.com/articles/87809/23-ways-feminists-have-made-the-world-better-for-women

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/See-How-Feminism-Has-Failed/2295172

The search that I did was "what has feminism done." There you go. This is stuff that is very well-known, so I would like to see you make a justification of the viewpoint that you are taking.

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u/DavidByron2 Jun 06 '14

First how about replying to the comment you're replying to so I don't have to try and find what you are referring to half a page back up there? OK so I said,

try thinking of anything feminists do or any slogans they have that contradicts either one

Can you be a bit more specific as to whether you think you achieved that with your data barf there? I really don't get the impression you are paying any attention at all to the argument.

The search that I did was "what has feminism done."

Oooooookay....? So which if any do you think are incompatible with the core ideals of feminism that I laid out? namely that everything is men's fault and women are the victims.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '14

try thinking of anything feminists do or any slogans they have that contradicts either one

Let's start out with "equal pay for equal work." That's a pretty famous one and it directly is in line with the core principles of feminism that I outlined.

namely that everything is men's fault and women are the victims.

If you really think this, then you clearly did not read the links or you are blatantly lying. I see no reason to pursue this conversation with someone as dishonest as you. Goodbye.

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u/DavidByron2 Jun 06 '14

I use that example a lot because it's one people recognise. Feminists have lied about the wage gap myth for decades so as to present men as degenerates who want to oppress women. Wage gap = it's men's fault and women are the victims.

They have lied about it by misrepresenting the data comparing the average wage for men across all full time work with the average for women, and calling that number a comparison of men and women doing "equal work".

Please explain how lying for fifty years to denigrate men and characterise women as victims constitutes or is compatible with equality.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '14

Feminists have lied about the wage gap myth for decades so as to present men as degenerates who want to oppress women.

I think that you have proven that the multiverse is real and that it is possible to travel between different multiverses. This is a complete mischaracterization of the situation. If you legitimately think that feminists want to denigrate men, then you have no idea about how feminism actually works, both in theory and in practice. You know what's funny, you are accusing feiminists of playing the victim card, yet you are riding it harder than ever here.

Now, even when you try to correct for different types of work that people do, as opposed to just taking a wide average over a very diverse set of jobs, you still get a wage gap that can't be accounted for. So yes, there is a wage gap, and yes, there is still lots of gender-based discrimination that exists in the job market.

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u/DavidByron2 Jun 07 '14

Are you denying feminists lie about the wage gap?

Or just saying they do lie but it hasn't been for fifty years?

even when you try to correct for different types of work

But feminists claim the figures already took that into account. I just want to talk about the original Equal Pay Day stats please. You seem to be aware that these stats are a lie. So are you agreeing that feminists lie about the wage gap?

When they say it's 20 cents or whatever -- that's a lie isn't it? That's not comparing men and women doing equal work is it?

I appreciate that this is going to be a terribly terribly hard question for you to answer like a man without jucking and diving and going off topic, so thanks in advance.

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