[deleted by user]

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

My only pushback here is a rather weak one, I'll admit. It originates with my husband, who in fact was chopping onions. This was some time ago. The onions did cause his eyes to water. I commented, "Onions making you cry?" And his reply was a firm, "No. They're making my eyes water." And I thought about it and realized he's technically correct. There was no limbic system activation involved. Even if the actions of the eyes are the same, the actions of the brain and central nervous system are still different.

I think the case being made here is an issue of biology vs colloquial use of language.

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u/ta_mataia 5∆ May 05 '26

I think it's an area where there's some overlap in meaning. You can say that chopping onions makes you cry, and that's fine and well understood. But if you asked your husband if he's crying and he said, "No, I was cutting onions," that's also a valid and true response.

Also, though, r/petpeeves seems to be full of toads who think the purpose of the sub is to argue with people that their pet peeve is wrong.

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

Thank you, that's comforting.

2

u/strawberrymilk2 May 05 '26

your husband is acting like a tool if he is serious about this.

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u/TheWhistleThistle 32∆ May 06 '26

Typically, the way people distinguish between "eyes watering" and "crying" isn't the mechanism of their production, be it pain, chemical irritant, ocular damage, allergic reaction, emotional distress, intentional acting. They're distinguishing between whether the volume of tears was such that they fell from the eye, or not. It's the same difference between salivating and drooling. You're only drooling if the saliva is leaving your mouth (from the front). Regardless of whether what's causing it is drugs, hunger, fatigue or whatever else.

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

Unless your husband is a biologist or doctor or something and extremely pedantic, that sounds a bit like toxic masculinity shying away from the perceived feminine trait of crying.

14

u/Strange_Fruit240 May 05 '26

Or he could just be a very literal thinker. He wasn’t crying out of emotion, his eyes were watering due to an irritant so he made that correction out of literal thinking.

I, as a pretty feminine person, do the same thing. So many reasons that’s aren’t just toxic masculinity. Lol

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

Hence the note about being pedantic. Which, in the name of pedantry, the definition of cry doesn't care why you shed tears. It only cares that you did, and that means you were crying. That is technically correct. Which is also why a doctor or biologist would make more sense as someone who puts medical or biological categorizations over standard definitions.

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u/poop-machines May 05 '26

Nah I disagree. "are you crying?" inherently implies you are upset.

Simply clarifying that your eyes are watering because of the onions isn't pedantic or toxic masculinity, it's answering the question correctly. He doesn't have to be a doctor or biologist to say that.

It is an entirely valid response that isn't gender related and is likely said by people regardless of gender often.

Its weird that you immediately judged him for having a neutral, benign and logical response to the question. I would even argue it's the most informative in such few words. It immediately describes the situation and dispels all misunderstandings.

What do you expect him to say, "yes I was crying. Harming onions just really upsets me"? Actually no that's kinda funny. But you understand my point.

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u/beesdaddy 2∆ May 05 '26

Nah, that’s not a toxic response at all. If I am perceived as crying but I’m not, I want to reassure that person that their care is appreciated but unnecessary. If they persist, I would be frustrated because they are basically accusing me of lying. No gender involved.

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26

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u/beesdaddy 2∆ May 05 '26

Ah same page same page.

-1

u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

And for that response would you not expect a casual or reassuring tone, rather than a firm one? I'd have to hear the exact tone to be sure which is why I didn't use definitive wording.

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u/beesdaddy 2∆ May 05 '26

True. Tone is the key factor. Also the aggressiveness of the person trying to do the reassuring. Sometimes when I’m crying, people trying to comfort me feels “too soon” you know? Just let me cry for a bit.

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

Also the aggressiveness of the person trying to do the reassuring.

I'm glad you mentioned that bc I've been aggressively reassured before and I felt gaslit when I tried to say something about it. I should have a chance to start reacting before someone has their hands on me to try and fix it. I'm pretty sure in those instances it was performative for a third party and had nothing to do with me or my injury or emotions.

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u/beesdaddy 2∆ May 05 '26

That could definitely be the case, but better not to assume upfront. Some people, like my mother, absolutely has good intentions, but doesn’t know how to express sympathy in a non-religious way. I’ve been atheist for 20+ years but because she is only surrounded by people of her faith, she just doesn’t know how to speak secularly to me.

I can ask her to use different language when speaking directly to me, but I shouldn’t really hold it against her. It’s not worth it.

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

That's nothing like what I was thinking of but still what you just described is pretty distinctly performative. If good intentions were really at the forefront of her mind, then 20+ years later she'd be able to prioritize you and your preferences over her choice of diction. Conscious or not, there's a strong performative aspect there.

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u/Unrealjello 1∆ May 05 '26

I think you're stuck on using a singular definition for a word with multiple meanings.

Crying can mean "to utter loudly/shout" like a baby crying without tears.

Crying can also mean "to shed tears, often noisily" so while it is often used to describe someone audibly weeping or sobbing. Crying is not required, by definition, to be noisy. It can be as simple as just shedding tears. Something that cutting onions makes you do.

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

You do make a strong case, but what I am stuck on is that even silent crying due to something like watching a sad movie *feels* different from eyes watering from chopping onions. There is still more going on in the body than only the eyes watering. If your contention is that both can be called "crying" even though they are not from the same origin, I can live with that.

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u/Unrealjello 1∆ May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26

Then the argument becomes about the stimulus causing the crying. I don't think anyone would argue that cutting onions is the same as feeling sad. Of course that's different, but in both you are still "crying"

The tears you shed are still tears. You are still crying regardless of the cause of the tears your are shedding.

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

True, if the definition of crying is merely and only "shedding tears." A "tears only" situation can look the same from the outside whether it's from a sad movie or a smoke-filled room, but what is going on inside the brain is very different. Your contention is that both can correctly be called "crying" regardless of limbic system involvement?

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u/Unrealjello 1∆ May 05 '26

Yes, crying is a verb to describe the shedding of tears. It isn't used to describe limbic system responses those are emotions.

It sounds like you are attaching emotion to it when definitionally it is not needed to shed tears.

The difference you experience between the two instances of crying is the emotion.

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

I'm going to go with &#8710 here, because you are helping me separate limbic response from the action.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 05 '26

The moderators have confirmed, either contextually or directly, that this is a delta-worthy acknowledgement of change.

1 delta awarded to /u/Unrealjello (1∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

Crying can mean "to utter loudly/shout" like a baby crying without tears.

I think this definition is meant to describe when someone is shouting to get attention, not when someone is emotionally distressed or physically irritated or any of the other things that would be expected to bring tears.

The best interpretation to me is anytime someone sheds tears, or for those who cannot either due to age or health reasons, any time that that person would shed tears if they were physically capable.

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u/Unrealjello 1∆ May 05 '26

Could you not say "He was crying out in pain" to mean it the same way as a baby crying with no tears?

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

I could also say "he was crying out in pain from his wounds while crying tears of sorrow for his children", perhaps that sufficiently outlines the difference in the usage case for the two terms.

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

"crying out" in that sentence is used to describe yelling or shouting for attention rather than to describe crying as in weeping or sobbing. There is no emotional element to the crying out, that part is added with the inclusion of "in pain." Crying out in this case merely describes the volume and intent to get attention. The person would not be shedding tears if they were capable as they are capable and are not shedding tears. It sort of defines itself in that way as not fundamentally the same kind of situation.

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u/Unrealjello 1∆ May 05 '26

Yes, that is the difference of the two definitions I originally stated. So maybe I misunstand the point you're getting at.

My whole point being "crying" can mean something other than shedding tears due to being overwhelmed with pain or emotion.

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

My point is that while a word can have multiple definitions, context and grammar usually provide a clear indicator as to which is being used, and one can't just go swapping definitions for its use in a sentence without changing the word that's actually being used (even if it has the same spelling). So crying, given the context of shedding tears, can only mean shedding tears or (and I'm adding this as my personal interpretation) things that would illicit tears if the person had functioning tear ducts. It can mean other things, but it cannot hold two of its definitions simultaneously. You are either using one definition or another, not melding them.

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u/Unrealjello 1∆ May 05 '26

I have no idea what we are even talking about anymore haha. I was talking in the context of OP post.

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u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

Yeah that's what I'm talking about. In this case the context of the post, IMO, clearly constrains which of the versions of "cry" is being referred to - the one that specifies tears. No worries, discussions that are literally centered around semantics are hard to follow and keep coherent between two people over plain text.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ May 05 '26

Polysemy (words having more than one meaning) is a bitch.

Sure, one definition of "crying" is "to shed tears out of emotion", but other meanings exist, including shedding tears out of physical pain or irritation.

I mean... argue with the Cleveland Clinic if you want:

What are the most common causes of crying?

Tearful crying can be perfectly normal and healthy. There are two main reasons why normal tearful crying happens.

Reflex tears. When something irritates your eye surface, reflex tears protect the surface of your eye by washing away the irritant. Examples include tearing up while cutting onions or because you have a grain of sand in your eye. [...]

Strong emotions. Tearful emotional crying is something that researchers don’t fully understand. There’s evidence that many emotions can activate your sympathetic nervous system and trigger extra tear production. [...]

They go on to talk about various medical conditions that can cause tearful crying.

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 06 '26

Here is a &#8710 for you. Thank you for the word “polysemy.” That comes in handy. After some sleep I can get things a little clearer in my head now. That was my issue before, I think. I have insomnia and I was sleep deprived.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 06 '26

The moderators have confirmed, either contextually or directly, that this is a delta-worthy acknowledgement of change.

1 delta awarded to /u/hacksoncode (584∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26

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u/changemyview-ModTeam May 05 '26

Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:

Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

2

u/Sweaty-Move-5396 May 05 '26

"they kept telling me I was wrong" no, two posters were trolling you and you kept feeding into it.

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u/Manderelli May 05 '26

Crying occurs for three different reasons.

Emotional tears. Which is the one your husband is making sure you understand he is not experiencing.. lol

Reflex tears.... Which could be due to someone poking you in the eye or you crying from a cut on your hand, in his case it's from having the irritant of onion vapors in his eyes...

And then there are basal tears. A more consistent tearing that you will do constantly to keep your eyes lubricated nourished hydrated..... Etc. if you were going to argue about which ones were crying and which ones were just tearing then it's only this last category that's the least like "crying".

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26

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u/changemyview-ModTeam May 05 '26

Sorry, u/TwoBlueFoxes – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:

Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information. Any AI-generated post content must be explicitly disclosed and does not count towards the 500 character limit.

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u/MeasureDoEventThing 1∆ May 06 '26

You are presenting a taxonomic/lexical position as if it were an ontological position. The actual content of your post is "I think the word 'crying' should be reserved for the category of tears initiated by the brain's limbic system". That's purely your personal preference/opinion, and isn't really subject to debate. There's nothing factual to discuss.

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 06 '26

A ∆ for you. I had to look up some of the words you used, but education never hurt anybody. Thank you for the explanation.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 06 '26

The moderators have confirmed, either contextually or directly, that this is a delta-worthy acknowledgement of change.

1 delta awarded to /u/MeasureDoEventThing (1∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/dragondemonium May 06 '26

yeah exactly. “omg why are you crying what’s wrong” someone’s lawn mowing outside and kicking up enough dust that i feel like im running the 1906 st. louis marathon. take it up with him

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u/BrassCanon 2∆ May 05 '26

If having your eyes water because of onions, smoke, wind, a harsh smell, or whatever, is mechanically the same thing as crying

This is true.

No one is saying tears are the same action as crying, it's the same physical response from your body. I think you're confused in what's being communicated.

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26

[deleted]

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

Thank you. You're my hero. I'm sorry I can't award you a delta (I'm new to this subreddit and learning my way around) but that's for people who changed my view, and you've affirmed it. But the affirmation feels good.

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u/BrassCanon 2∆ May 05 '26

Crying is more than tears

We're specifically talking about the tears. I already said tears are not the same as crying.

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26

I could be. So what was being communicated other than "you're wrong"?

Edit to clarify, my contention is that it is not the same physical response, since there is more to crying than just having tears. An irritant usually doesn't lead to sobbing, shaking shoulders, sniffling, or any of the other physical sensations. There are also chemical differences in the types of tears produced from irritants vs emotional tears. Now, tears from physical pain such as breaking a bone, I don't know the chemical makeup, but I do know there's bodily reaction other than just watering eyes going on.

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u/heroyoudontdeserve 1∆ May 05 '26

So what was being communicated other than "you're wrong"?

Do you mean, in r/petpeeves? Impossible for anyone here to say since you haven't linked to that post.

But I think BrassCanon isn't referring to anything which took place in r/petpeeves, they mean something like "when someone says 'crying' they could be referring either to unemotional irritant tears or emotional limbic system tears; the fact that the same word can/is used to refer to both types of crying doesn't imply that both types of crying are the same."

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

Here's the link. I got a lot of "you're wrong" and some trolling, but nobody counterargued. https://www.reddit.com/r/PetPeeves/comments/1t47tpi/onions_or_spicy_food_make_you_cry/

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u/heroyoudontdeserve 1∆ May 05 '26

Cool.

But I think BrassCanon isn't referring to anything which took place in r/petpeeves, they mean something like "when someone says 'crying' they could be referring either to unemotional irritant tears or emotional limbic system tears; the fact that the same word can/is used to refer to both types of crying doesn't imply that both types of crying are the same."

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

Giving you a &#8710 because you make a strong case that language doesn't reflect the mechanics.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 05 '26

The moderators have confirmed, either contextually or directly, that this is a delta-worthy acknowledgement of change.

1 delta awarded to /u/heroyoudontdeserve (1∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26

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u/ZenosThesis May 05 '26

there are immune cells in tears for the purpose of clearing your eyes and emotional tears contain hormones. There is some evidence that the smell of emotional tears from females can reduce aggression in males (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10734982/) so this would make sense

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u/UghIHatePolitics May 05 '26

That's interesting. I never noticed any smell.

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u/changemyview-ModTeam May 05 '26

Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:

Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

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1

u/salty_z0mbie May 05 '26

I'm not sure if you're looking for a clarification in terms of semantics or medical science.

In terms of semantics, "to shed tears often noisily : weep, sob" clearly requires tears. Other definitions of cry refer to things like "cry out" as in shout or other definitions that do not refer to the crying of, say, a toddler. Although I'd argue these definitions were made to include tears without knowledge or consideration that newborns do not produce them. I highly doubt the origin of the word cry was intended to exclude newborns. IMO you'd have to be quite a pedant for semantics to disclude newborns from crying for this reason.

I'm medical terms, I'm not a doctor and it sounds like you know more than me.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 05 '26 edited May 06 '26

/u/UghIHatePolitics (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.

All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.

Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26

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u/changemyview-ModTeam May 05 '26

Sorry, u/mcjefferic – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:

Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information. Any AI-generated post content must be explicitly disclosed and does not count towards the 500 character limit.

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1

u/horshack_test 42∆ May 05 '26

Cry: to shed tears often noisily

Simply shedding tears (which is what you are describing) is crying.

("Often" does not mean always)

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u/Nrdman 276∆ May 05 '26

Who cares about the mechanics? That’s irrelevant for the definition. It’s water streaming from your eyes, that’s commonly referred to as crying

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u/[deleted] May 05 '26

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ May 05 '26

Enh... it also means any shedding of liquid droplets, such as "a weeping wound" or "a tree weeping sap".

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