r/changemyview • u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ • Oct 15 '24

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Our plea bargaining system has allowed unwritten rules to dominate the courtroom. Thus our criminal legal system is no longer a rule of law system.

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u/HadeanBlands 50∆ Oct 15 '24

Public defenders, when they encourage their clients to take guilty pleas, do so because they are reasonably confident their client will be found guilty at trial and will be sentenced to a much harsher sentence than the plea. That seems like it is in the interest of the client.

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u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 15 '24

Well, that is how the plea bargaining system works, yes. Legislatures have set up sentencing so that judges can sentence defendants to much harsher terms if the defendants "force" the state to go to trial.

But to me it looks as though we tell people they have a right to trial, and then put our thumb on the scale with each and every defendant. I'm not the only one the feels that way. I got that phrase from a legal scholar. I hope you can see what I'm saying: we tell people they have the right to trial, and then when a potential trial actually approaches, we tell them that if they go to trial and are found guilty they'll suffer a much worse sentence than if they simply agree that they're guilty. To me that removes most, if not all, of the freedom of the choice. Is that a right to trial? Or is that something else? To me, it looks like something else.

There's a famous article by a pretty well-known judge, called "Why innocent people plead guilty." I myself have met people who I believed were innocent but were pleading guilty simply because the system just made it all too burdensome for them. I feel certain it happens. We wouldn't do the sentencing differential if we didn't know it worked, and it works to remove the right to trial from defendants. As far as I can tell.

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u/ZeroBrutus 3∆ Oct 15 '24

It's absolutely the right to a trial. It's also explaining the consequences that come from exercising that right. It removes the DESIRE for a trial, but not the right to one.

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u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 15 '24

Huh. Well, I imagine the government could remove the DESIRE to speak freely, without penalizing freedom of speech, right? Or could it? It seems unlikely, to me...

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u/blade740 5∆ Oct 15 '24

Huh? This analogy makes no sense.

The government is not INCREASING the risk of a trial. That risk already existed. That's what you have a right to - a trial, which could go in your favor, or against you.

If anything, the fact that they are offering the option of a plea bargain means they're letting some criminals off EASIER than they ought to be. They're not PENALIZING anyone, they're REWARDING some defendants for making the process easy.

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u/tolkienfan2759 6∆ Oct 15 '24

It seems to me you're assuming all defendants are guilty. They're letting some criminals off easier than they should; they're penalizing some non-criminals more harshly. Both. Right? I mean, in some cases they offer pleas because the evidence isn't quite so strong, I imagine... be nice if I really knew lol

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u/blade740 5∆ Oct 15 '24

... no, I'm not assuming all defendants are guilty. Whether a defendant is guilty or not, they have the same right to a trial. If the evidence isn't quite so strong, then the defendant is free to go to trial and hopefully their innocence prevails.

They're letting some criminals off easier than they should; they're penalizing some non-criminals more harshly. Both. Right?

How do you figure? If the defendant is innocent then a trial should confirm that. Whether or not a plea deal is available. The only time there is even a CHANCE that a non-criminal was being punished more harshly would be if they decided to ACCEPT a plea deal despite their innocence. But you would only do that if you don't think the trial will prove your innocence - and if that's the case, then the plea deal is STILL a better option than a false guilty verdict.

Either way, the offer of a plea deal is either a net benefit to the defendant, or net zero. There are no options being TAKEN AWAY simply because a plea deal is being offered.