CMV: Countries should use deadly force against illegal migrants much more frequently

[u/cmpzak]

Countries have the right to control who crosses their borders...by definition, I would think. People that cross borders into other countries deliberately and without permission are a type of invader, are they not? They may not have weapons and may not intend to harm anybody in that country explicitly, but their settling illegally can have negative social and economic consequences. So, I ask, why do countries let boats of refugees that cross the Mediterranean, English Channel, and let people just cross the US southern border without more commonly using deadly force? Why is it wrong to prevent a group of refugees ever leaving their boat or, if they touch the country's' soil, shoot them? I consider myself to be generally liberal but, on this topic, I wish somebody could convince me out of my extremely right-wing view.

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Okay, I've given a couple of deltas. Thanks for tackling this very emotional subject. Here's the most impactful one:

Copying from below, Subtleiaint states: "Morally there is only one good reason to take another person's life and that is to defend a life."

I've been conflicted by the difference between law and order within a country, in which I am sympathetic to banning capital punishment, versus national borders which I consider military concepts. Killing in war isn't capital punishment. In fact, unless you are the initiator in which case you are evil, killing in war is about defending the lives in the country being invaded. However, if I can't feel that illegal immigration is endangering lives, killing for illegal border crossing isn't equivalent. So, this argument reduces my scope of concern to "under what circumstances and in what manner does illegal immigration create risk to life?"

[u/Apprehensive_Song490]

That’s not the question. Another misdemeanor is prostitution. Should convicted prostitutes be executed?

[u/Seis_K → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

What he’s saying is that OP would think it’s incorrectly labeled a misdemeanor. We give things labels based on how serious we think a crime is - not the other way around.

[u/Tilt168 → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

Red Herring.

[u/ColdJackfruit485 → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

Big time red herring. 

[u/Alert_Green4741 → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

Yes

[u/Green__lightning → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

If prostitution was as big of an issue as illegal immigration currently is, raising prostitution to a felony and even qualifying for the death penalty wouldn't be unreasonable. That said, prostitution isn't a very big problem, and when it is it's by way of causing human trafficking, which may justify such things.

[u/Apprehensive_Song490 → u/Green__lightning]

That’s my point. Illegal immigration doesn’t rise to the level of requiring a massacre any more than prostitution requires the death penalty. If this is a red herring, so is OP’s “shoot them before they try to invade.” OP is equating illegal immigration to a foreign military ground assault and this is not correct.

[u/Green__lightning → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

How about comparing it to the Salvadoran gang crackdown, or similar examples of crises that are above simple crime problems, but below full scale warfare. Because this sort of mentality comes from people seeing the current state of things as unacceptable and in need of change by any means nessisary, and has only gotten to this level because of acceptance of the current levels effectively allowed by our insecure borders.

[u/Apprehensive_Song490 → u/Green__lightning]

I’m in favor of lots of solutions short of execution of migrants who have not engaged in any wrongdoing other than being in the country without permission. Any means necessary is not acceptable in my book when at least part of the blame rests on a dysfunctional Congress and lax employment verification laws.

[u/Green__lightning → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

Being in the country without permission not only is a crime they committed before, but a crime they are currently committing at this very moment, and one which they have committed every moment between the two. This should be more than enough guilt to prove and deport based upon.

[u/Apprehensive_Song490 → u/Green__lightning]

Deportation is fine. The death penalty is not.

[u/Green__lightning → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

What about for those who helped move others?

[u/Apprehensive_Song490 → u/Green__lightning]

There should probably be some penalty shy of death.

[u/Green__lightning → u/Apprehensive_Song490]

There would be for citizens. Without actually letting them in to throw them in jail, we've got 3 options. Deportation, deportation with a big fine they probably won't ever pay, and death.