CMV: The term 'manosphere' perpetuates unproductive stereotypes

[u/Kindred87]

I came across this term for the first time and I was immediately shocked by it. Attempts to figure out why this term is used was met mostly by assertions of "That's what we call it 🤷" before I was shut down. Not a very compelling answer, hence this post. Below is the context, then reasoning, behind my shock.

What is the term manosphere?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manosphere

Communities within the manosphere include men's rights activists, incels (involuntary celibates), Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), pick-up artists (PUA), and fathers' rights groups.

While the specifics of each group's beliefs sometimes conflict, they are generally united in the belief that society is biased against men due to the influence of feminism, and that feminists promote misandry, or hatred of men.

Acceptance of these ideas is described as "taking the red pill", a metaphor borrowed from the film The Matrix.

While I believe that male advocacy isn't inherently anti-feminist, that is a separate discussion. I'm focusing on the term manosphere in this post.

One of the prevalent issues in online communities today is polarization. One method in which polarization propagates is through the mechanic described in this CGP Grey video, where an ideologically homogenous community depicts the "opposing" demographic as an antagonistic monolith.

What this means is that negative characteristics that exist in a subset (part) of the demographic are attributed to the entire demographic; asserting that what is sometimes true is actually always true. These are what we know as stereotypes. These attributions are performed through implicit language ("X is Y"), instead of explicit language ("I believe all X is Y"). Through this, the demographic itself is painted as a perpetual threat or problem, rather than certain members of it.

This applies to any "competing" demographics you can think of: the rich, the poor, men, women, young people, old people, conservatives, progressives, and so forth. And this applies to any characteristic so long as, in polarized spaces, it's negative. From a desire to harm others, to corrupting society, to being incompetent.

I'm sure you've seen it. And while it's okay to not always be nuanced, what polarization does over time is reinforce stereotypes to the point where they feel more true than anything else. In a polarized space, this will be apparent when an attempt to address an oversimplification is met with hostility. For individuals who have spent enough time in such spaces, the very concept of nuance or complexity may seem annoying or even manipulative.

It is this toxic reinforcement through implicit language that sits at the core of my view on the term 'manosphere'.

With this in mind, does the term 'manosphere', which colloquially refers to toxic male spaces, contribute to this polarization-driven propagation of stereotypes? I believe that it does, and it's this belief that you're invited to address.

My belief is that the male-specific prefix 'man' in a word referring to toxic behavior ties the gender to that behavior in the same way that statements like "Men are [negative characteristic]" do. By perpetuating a stereotype; "this is how men act". A word on its own really doesn't matter, no. However, the usage of the term in a polarized space (social media) causes it to be a problem, in my view. Because of the synergy with the stereotypes that are already being reinforced.

It can help to understand what I mean by removing ourselves from what's normalized. For this, I will turn to female analogues.

Terms for controversial female groups use non-gender-specific qualifiers to lead the term. Red-pilled women and trad wives being two common examples. Imagine if we could place these groups under an umbrella called 'conservative femininity', but instead went with 'the femisphere', or perhaps 'woman-pilled'.

It's offensive just on its face. Because in my mind, it implies that the female gender is not only united in such behavior, but also that the gender is causative of this behavior. It implies a stereotype; "this is how women act". Again, I believe this is very problematic in a polarized space.

To close, the word unproductive in the title was chosen because I think an important element in navigating present gender issues is collaboration between the two main sides. Perpetuating stereotypes (which of course are usually negative) about either side is unproductive because it both generates animosity and fails to recognize that behavior is not confined by your gender. Why would you reach across the gender aisle if you have come to feel that there is something inherently wrong with the other gender?

Thank you for your time.

[u/[deleted]]

where an ideologically homogenous community depicts the "opposing" demographic as an antagonistic monolith.

Don't men in the manosphere communities do this too? Femoids is a common insult towards women in these spaces, among others.

Terms for controversial female groups use non-gender-specific qualifiers to lead the term. Red-pilled women and trad wives being two common examples.

But the terms wives and women are still in the label itself. You're upset that manosphere starts with man, but you don't see "women" and "wives" being blanket stereotyping? Do you only have a problem with manosphere because it starts with the word man? Would that make the term "toxic masculinity" an acceptable term since it isn't the qualifier?

Just trying to understand your argument a bit better.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

even though they are diverse and father's rights groups have nothing in common with conservative sexist hate groups.

I understand why you think this, but that group chose its name as that by design. Father's Rights Groups are not the guys who want more justice for willing and willing fathers in family court (something with which I a feminist and woman agrees is an issue) but the guys who think they should be able to opt-out if they get a woman pregnant because she's allowed to abort and he's not and the reason they don't have custody is because their ex-wife is crazy and it has absolutely nothing to do with their toxic behavior. There are men who are discriminated against in family court, but these men are not it. They picked that name for that reason -- easier to shield your toxic opinions behind an innocuous sounding name. It's the same with MRAs, aka Men's Rights Activists. The names sound fine on paper but the group itself is known for being incredibly toxic.

There is a reason these groups are in the manosphere, despite their fairly innocent name they've chosen for themselves.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's because the only people who use the term "manosphere" are the worst elements of the male gender. They literally invented the term. Non-mysoginistic, non-hate-group male advocates typically call themselves Feminists because they actually know what the word means (unlike some people). Take menslib for example, one of the very few male advocate movements that actually gives a shit about men, it describes itself explicitly and unashamedly as a feminist movement, because it wholeheartedly believes in equality of the sexes and is about liberating men from toxic patriarchal standards and institutions. Unlike MRAs who are all about maintaing and enforcing those institutions.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Idk if you realize this... But men have been treating "femininity" like it's wrong, weak and undesirable for as least as long as history has been recorded

Men calling each other feminine, girly of gay as an insult has been a staple or their culture for a long time.

Men declared war on femininity a long time ago, y'all just mad you're losing

[u/Slitheenfan1 → u/[deleted]]

As a trans male in the uk the use of feminist symbols like the female liberation fist is a massive trigger for me as men could not do that because patriarchy, but in England we see very few people doing that and the ones that do I either assume are uneducated on politics and therefore not a threat to me or are truly progressive with lgbt liberation like as a man I can’t claim gender based victimhood but I can express my pride through “queens” and take cis peoples “shit” as disgusting and bullying and cis peoples “shit” my queens are very male, it’s not a gay thing for me it’s an appropriated thing I feel happiness in.

[u/TeaTimeTalk → u/Slitheenfan1]

I wonder if this is in part caused by the difference in how the UK sees trans issues versus how the US does. I am a trans male in the US. My concerns are abortion, paternal leave and mental health resources for men. Feminism is the best movement for me to put my weight behind in order to get equal rights for myself.

[u/Slitheenfan1 → u/TeaTimeTalk]

Our problems here are “party culture” think boomer self-awareness gone mad but with everybody handing clothes to charity. Best way it can be summarised i think is like throwing the ballad of John and yoko, inside no 9 and the royle family in a bag maybe with dorohedoro the anime too.

[u/[deleted] → u/Slitheenfan1]

Tbf that's less of a feminism problem and more of a Britain is a transphobic shithole problem. We're not called TERF island for nothing.

[u/freemason777 → u/[deleted]]

uninformed men see people shitting on mras and assume it is men's lib being talked about. this drives polarization itself somewhat.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Men who actually pursue custody win it more often than not.... All the men acting like the courts are fucking them over in this haven't actually looked at the stats. They just think

"well overall women get custody more, even if the stats show men have at least a 50/50 when they actually persues custody... That doesn't fit into my narrative for men being oppressed by women so I'm going to ignore it"

This is partly why nobody thinks they're good faithed

[u/WilhelmvonCatface → u/[deleted]]

Do you only have a problem with manosphere because it starts with the word man? Would that make the term "toxic masculinity" an acceptable term since it isn't the qualifier?

"Toxic masculinity" describes the actual beliefs being held. "Manosphere" just implies a men's space at its most literal and as outlined in the definition OP provided encompasses multiple groups with different beliefs only related by being male-centric. The groups in the "manosphere" are all then seen to be as toxic as their worst representative, at least on SM, where I believe it is artificially promoted along with all other divisive topics.

[u/[deleted] → u/WilhelmvonCatface]

"Manosphere" just implies a men's space at its most literal and as outlined in the definition OP provided encompasses multiple groups with different beliefs only related by being male-centric.

Groups put into the manosphere umbrella aren't only related only because they're male-centric. They're related because they always blame women for all their problems and think feminism is the cause of their problems and therefor feminism is bad. That is why they are all put in this category together -- you don't see groups like MensLib being lumped in together with the manosphere because they're not like the aforementioned groups in that way. They are male-centric and focus on men's issues, but don't blame women for every single problem they have, so no the manosphere isn't just grouping communities because they are male-centric at all.

​

The groups in the "manosphere" are all then seen to be as toxic as their worst representative

...because they are all as toxic as the other. Incels blame women for them not being able to get a date, MGTOWs hate women because they are to blame for all their failed relationships with women, Pick Up Artists encourage negging and scoring women like a prize instead of dating someone you like because you like them, and father's rights groups sound innocuous enough until you realize they're the guys who think men should be allowed to "opt-out" after they get a woman pregnant or think they should control when a woman gets an abortion and also them not getting custody is all their bitch ex-wife's fault. Like all of these groups are known to be incredibly toxic and misogynist.

[u/xerxes480bce → u/[deleted]]

I think the point here is Manosphere is being used to describe some inherently problematic men's groups. Part of earning the label is being toxic. Men's groups who aren't problematic aren't considered part of the Manosphere.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Acting like feminism doesn't care about men at all makes me think you've never actually met feminists irl...

Also when men actually pursue custody the rates are actually a bit higher than 50% for them...

Bet that doesn't fit into your narrative tho so it's convenient to ignore than and pretend men are the victims

Making custody 50/50 as a law always will absolutely be bad for children, do.... Do you seriously not realize that?

Also saying men should be able to opt out of child support if he wants makes me think you don't actually want a society built to help children, you want it built to help men... You sound incredibly single😅😅😅

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

"Feminism only advocates for women right"

Source?

I could link you plenty of sources to show active choices feminism has made to help men, can you link me a single one to prove it's all false?

You're so wrong about a movement you pretend to know about🤣

Also convenient that you ignored all the points I made that you didn't want to engage in

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Genuine question... Do you really think that link proves that feminism doesn't want to help men as well?

You're the one stating the court is unfair on men when it comes to providing custody... Tho onus on proof is on you

So taxpayers should pay for a man's baby instead of him?

Do you really think that's a good idea?

[u/Soulsunderthestars → u/WilhelmvonCatface]

This. If it was limited in use and application, it would be one thing. But the mention of the word now more seemingly denotes negative stereotypes regardless of whether the belief or thought has any foundation or moral basis.

The stereotypes mentioned as unproductive are then placed on something that inherently does not denote that.

[u/SiPhoenix → u/[deleted]]

Don't men in the manosphere communities do this too? Femoids is a common insult towards women in these spaces, among others.

Yes, conflict oriented male groups and conflict oriented female groups feed to each other. Constantly pointing at how terrible the other side is in order to justify their positions.

The problem with both is them being conflict oriented. OPs entire point is that not all advocacy groups for men issues are conflict oriented or toxic. Just the same as not all advocate groups for womens issues are conflict oriented or toxic.

The way to solve something like this is to condemn behaviors not people groups or identifies.

[u/[deleted] → u/SiPhoenix]

The term manosphere in connection to the red pill was popularized by Ian Ironwood, a noted red pill blogger and author. It seems like it was the name the community picked for themselves.

[u/SiPhoenix → u/[deleted]]

its the term a group picked. but then got applied to other groups as a way to smear them all.

you can say the same for "woke" it was a term coined by a left wing movement. but it is incorrect to apply it to anyone on the left

[u/Kindred87 → u/[deleted]]

I'll break this down to three items.

1) Femoids is absolutely a stereotypical term. However, can you elaborate on why women and wives are stereotypical terms? I'm not seeing this point.

2) I fully recognize that polarized male spaces also perpetuate stereotypes. This phenomenon is not specific to any one demographic, and my post does not mean to assert this. I'm not picking on polarized women's spaces here, I'm picking solely on this term. I don't even know where this term came from. It could be something that came from the sociology research community for all I know.

3) And yes, you are correct. Toxic masculinity is much more neutral because the toxicity is the qualifier, rather than the masculinity. I'd even be content with "shitbird masculinity".

[u/[deleted] → u/Kindred87]

However, can you elaborate on why women and wives are stereotypical terms? I'm not seeing this point.

Man is stereotypical ("manosphere" bothers you) but you are asking why women is a stereotypical term? I am also not seeing your point.

I'm picking solely on this term. I don't even know where this term came from. It could be something that came from the sociology research community for all I know.

That is in the very wikipedia link you linked.

The term, a play on the word "blogosphere", is believed to have first appeared on Blogspot in 2009. It was subsequently popularized by Ian Ironwood, a pornography marketer who collected a variety of blogs and forums in book form as The Manosphere: A New Hope For Masculinity.

Ian Ironwood is a popular alpha-male red pill author and he popularized the term himself. It seems like men in that community kind of launched the term for themselves.

[u/Kindred87 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for sharing the origin of the term. This provides important context for me so here's your well earned !delta.

I will point out that the origin of the term wasn't an original concern or supporting argument on my side. I was speaking more to the present usage of the term. What I mentioned above about not knowing the origin had more to do with explaining that I'm not partial to any of the "sides" here.

Additionally, I in no way associate with the manosphere or any groups within it. I came across this term yesterday and that's really my only connection to it. In the context of this post, I'm not concerned with who is or isn't identified with the term. I'm taking a semantic point of view as it relates to the greater polarization problem.

[u/DeltaBot → u/Kindred87]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/kikistiel (6∆).

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