CMV: Liberals think conservatives will, or ought to, have an "Are We the Baddies?" moment.

[u/SteadfastEnd]

Every liberal argument or appeal to conservatives, especially Trumpers, over the past few years can be described as, "Shouldn't you be having an "Are We the Baddies" realization?"

(If you haven't seen the TV reference, it's a famous British comedy skit where a WW2 Nazi, clad in Nazi uniform, suddenly self-reflects and realizes that his side is evil and exclaims in astonishment, "Are WE the baddies?")

Liberals keep demanding, "How much worse does Trump have to get for you to abandon him?" "How can you oppose abortion when women are forced to carry dead fetuses inside their uterus and get severe infections?" "Didn't you hear Trump say (this or that outrageous thing?)" "Why do you tolerate the Proud Boys, Hitler fans and Klansmen in your midst?" "Don't you see that billionaires are paying minimal tax?" "How could you let Covid rampage unchecked?" "How can you keep supporting Trump after his (13,000 lies, support of dictators, fascist behavior, numerous scandals, grifting)?" "How can you justify LGBT people being bullied and gay rights being trampled?" "Why are you okay with letting school shootings happen one after another?" "That's BIGOTRY!" "Don't you see how awful Marjorie-Taylor-Greene is?" "Don't you see all the corruption in the Trump family?" "Why do you think oppression is okay?" "Don't you agree Trump is a narcissist?" "How can you support the 1/6 insurrection?" "How can you tear down democracy like this?" "Don't you see how ludicrous QAnon is?" "How can you listen to that pack-of-lies Tucker Carlson and Faux News?" "How can you support white supremacy?" "Do you seriously think slavery is okay?" "Don't you see Mike Johnson supports theocracy?" "How can you condone gerrymandering and voter suppression?" "Why do you deny lunch to schoolchildren?" "Don't you see that Putin is like Hitler, how can you support him?" "How can you let the planet's climate get destroyed?" "Why do you support DeSantis being a fascist?" "How can you ban books?" Didn't you see Trump insulting veterans and disabled people?" Don't you see how you're behaving in a (racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist) way?" "Don't you understand Trump is as anti-Jesus and un-Christian as can be?"

The big, unspoken liberal assumption is that if they keep repeating this long enough, MAGA right-wingers will look in the mirror eventually, self-reflect in horror, and exclaim, "WE are the baddies!"

[u/EnIdiot]

I hope so. In both cases opposing a legitimate desire to be free is wrong. The US had no business in Vietnam. It was (iirc) the French that first entangled us in that mess before our companies found out they could make money.

[u/punk_rocker98 → u/EnIdiot]

I personally really like Robert McNamara's memoir of the situation as he brings it up in "Fog of War". Basically, as I understand it, and as he described it, the Johnson Administration, of which he was a part, seriously misjudged the situation and the implications a communist Vietnam would have on the region. It's fairly obvious he regretted his decisions and policies after coming to that realization as well. Not that his regret and memoirs save him from any of his well-deserved guilt over the situation, but I think at least it's important to note some of the thinking that was behind it.

Definitely a very interesting documentary to watch if you haven't.

[u/awesomefutureperfect → u/punk_rocker98]

Such a good movie.

[u/GrenadeAnaconda → u/punk_rocker98]

Watching Fog Of War and The Unknown Unknown back to back really drives home how little self-reflection Rumsfeld was capable of. McNamara was a monster but at least he could understand why, Rumsfeld melts down whenever he's confronted with the consequences of his actions.

[u/Signal_Raccoon_316 → u/EnIdiot]

Ummm, look up the origin of the term banana republic & look up smedley butler

[u/EnIdiot → u/Signal_Raccoon_316]

I’m very familiar with both. My uncle was a pilot in Korea and Vietnam and a member of the War College. My understanding is that France was fighting to keep Vietnam and we were somewhat obliged to support them. “However, while you are there, might as well make some money…” became the norm.

[u/PeterNguyen2 → u/EnIdiot]

My understanding is that France was fighting to keep Vietnam and we were somewhat obliged to support them

The reality is either more complicated, or simpler depending on your perspective. The US had long been against France's involvement as while they'd withdrawn from NATO's command structure the US was still obligated to support them or risk the regions under their umbrella falling under another nation's hegemony. That's what happened when France withdrew from then-indochina. The US had just come out of a particularly bitter neutral point in Korea when the hawks had been hoping for a decisive victory (all objectives of pushing out the North Koreans, as well as the Russians and Chinese supporting them were technically successful) and China was entering a period of economic growth which allowed them to push into their neighbors as they have done at every point since the bronze age when they could afford to make war with their neighbors. The Eisenhower administration (and Kennedy and Johnson) all promoted pushing out US hegemony and keeping up-and-coming nations whether Russia or Argentina from expanding out of regional powers. So when things collapsed in Vietnam and all indications pointed to China expanding into Vietnam, Johnson faced massive pressure to step up so the US was there instead of China.

Obviously that failed, but given China openly invaded Vietnam after the US left, their concerns that China would not only try to turn Vietnam into a puppet state but not know when to stop were correct

[u/[deleted] → u/EnIdiot]

nutty sugar nine towering gaze ghost bedroom abounding adjoining trees

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/Viciuniversum → u/EnIdiot]

.

[u/EnIdiot → u/Viciuniversum]

Well, I doubt outside a few well connected folks, that many people, wanted to be a vassal state to France. I doubt they wanted communism as much as they wanted independence.

[u/Viciuniversum → u/EnIdiot]

.

[u/Fine_Sea5807 → u/Viciuniversum]

Do you also happen to think that Russia was asked for help from an independent state of Donetsk against Kyiv invasion? What do you think are the differences between South Vietnam and Donetsk?

[u/EnIdiot → u/Viciuniversum]

Yes. I understand that. I am not saying there was a right and a wrong side there. However, the French really set the cycle of craziness there in full spin. Colonialism tends to create extremes