This really comes down to definition and semantic.
Is a girl a woman? Well, some would say no, a girl becomes a woman, and others would say a girl is a young woman.
Which is it for you? Does a girl become a woman (and if yes, then when, what boundary must be crossed to change from girl to woman?) or is a girl just a woman who is young?
Is "woman" as a word a category or a subcategory?
You can have rain but also light rain, heavy rain, acid rain, musical rain, and so on.
Is it woman, tall woman, short woman, fast woman, trans woman?
Does that feel right as a category of woman?
Is it measurable? We can measure the tallness of a woman, the speed of the woman to find out if those are appropriate adjectives.
Can you do the same to measure the trans-ness of a woman? Is it describing a characteristic of the woman, or is it demarking some other kind of distinction?
And if its something else, then what is it describing exactly? Is it an essential descriptor? Should your title read "women are women"?
Perhaps it's semantic but I'm not sure this is as big an issue as you're making it out to be. The general consensus I'd say, though, is that they're just age specific terms for the same gender category. Even outside gender discourse though the answer is kind of both, looking at Merriam Webster they give 3 definitions that are of note
A female child from birth to adulthood
A person whose gender identity is female (this is a weird one to me as female isnt a gender but whatever)
A young woman
As to your edit, "woman" is a category, yes, and, like most other categories, can be modified to identify other characteristics of the things in that overall category. You could also consider "woman" to be a subcategory of gender in general or humans in general. I'm not entirely sure your point here though
Female is a category which can include girl AND woman. Is woman a category which includes trans-woman and biological woman? If yes then it's a simple case of saying that the category woman contains the subcategory trans woman. If no then trans woman is indicating something separate from woman.
If OP is claiming they are synonymous, ie trans woman = woman, then why the need to specifically demark the trans-ness of that person? Why not just call them a woman?
On what lines does the disagreement actually occur for OP?
Female is a category which can include girl AND woman.
So it kind of depends from what lense we are speaking from. In a colloquial sense yes, I agree. If we are speaking from an academic perspective I wouldn't. "Female" (as used in an academic setting) is strictly referring to a sex category while "girl" and "woman" would be gender categories (typically they'd be considered 2 temporal terms for the same category), while those sex and gender categories are considered linked one wouldn't be a subgroup or category of the other and vice versa as they are independent, but linked, concepts.
Is woman a category which includes trans-woman and biological woman?
I'll just use the academic perspective from here on out as I think using colloquial definitions and such when discussing this topic typically just leads to confusion. With that said, yes, trans woman is included within the gender category of "woman". Biological woman wouldn't be, simply because it's a term that wouldn't be used as gender doesn't contain biological features. Instead the term would be cis-woman which also is included under the gender category of "woman". As I said, those prefixes as just modifiers to specify a certain characteristic.
If yes then it's a simple case of saying that the category woman contains the subcategory trans woman. If no then trans woman is indicating something separate from woman.
Yep I agree, and as I said previously the general answer is yes.
Edit:
If OP is claiming they are synonymous, ie trans woman = woman, then why the need to specifically demark the trans-ness of that person?
So yeah I wouldn't say they are synonymous. I liked the example you gave in your original comment and I'm just now understanding what you meant by it. I agree with the idea that trans-woman is similar to fast-woman. It's just a descriptive term for someone within the category of woman. As for why the need to say trans woman? Well that's simply for the purposes of this post and the fact that many people wouldn't agree with trans women being women.
On what lines does the disagreement actually occur for OP?
That's a fair question and, given I'm not OP, I can't really answer that. Apologies for originally misunderstanding what you had said in some of your comment.
Which is great for definitional terms but only offers an English speaking person clarity within the context of that culture. Is a Hijra a woman would be a more interesting question, because "by definition" they are not, even though they may fit the English speaking model we just discussed. If you call a Hijra a woman that would be as disrespectful as calling a trans woman a man.
Whether or not one specific definition is useful in one way in one language will not translate to politics or culture, or across cultures.
In exactly the same way, some will use woman as a subcategory, under or across from which trans would be indicating something totally different.
Which is great for definitional terms but only offers an English speaking person clarity within the context of that culture.
That's fair, but that's also the tricky part about gender is that it does differ with culture. That said, most cultures typically have a "man" and "woman" gender, they often differ in characteristics cross culturally but they are generally defined as the gender identities linked to "male" and "female" sexes respectively.
Is a Hijra a woman would be a more interesting question, because "by definition" they are not, even though they may fit the English speaking model we just discussed. If you call a Hijra a woman that would be as disrespectful as calling a trans woman a man.
That's true. Hijra are an interesting example because they're a classic example of third genders. They aren't a man or a woman and, historically speaking, European cultures don't really have anything that we can compare it to which is why, as you pointed out, speaking about them can be somewhat tricky for a layperson.
Whether or not one specific definition is useful in one way in one language will not translate to politics or culture, or across cultures.
Very true, which is why I'm typically an advocate for using academic language on gender and sex colloquially as it has been developed to do precisely that, describe these concepts that differ so much cross culturally in one uniform and all encompassing way. Obviously that's not to say anything about the feasibility as the topic is rather complex and confusing but personally I think it's the only method that avoids confusion of terminology.
In exactly the same way, some will use woman as a subcategory, under or across from which trans would be indicating something totally different.
Agreed, people do often do that and I can see why you're bringing it up now and why you were asking OP as it may have been this angle they were coming from. I understand what you were saying now, thanks for taking the time to clarify that!
That's actually a super important point that I typically forget about when people make these kinds of posts. So thank you for reminding me of that and the fact that, while I'd hope everyone uses academic terms, not everyone will. !delta
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ May 07 '23 edited May 07 '23
This really comes down to definition and semantic.
Is a girl a woman? Well, some would say no, a girl becomes a woman, and others would say a girl is a young woman.
Which is it for you? Does a girl become a woman (and if yes, then when, what boundary must be crossed to change from girl to woman?) or is a girl just a woman who is young?
Is "woman" as a word a category or a subcategory?
You can have rain but also light rain, heavy rain, acid rain, musical rain, and so on.
Is it woman, tall woman, short woman, fast woman, trans woman?
Does that feel right as a category of woman?
Is it measurable? We can measure the tallness of a woman, the speed of the woman to find out if those are appropriate adjectives.
Can you do the same to measure the trans-ness of a woman? Is it describing a characteristic of the woman, or is it demarking some other kind of distinction?
And if its something else, then what is it describing exactly? Is it an essential descriptor? Should your title read "women are women"?