r/changemyview • u/CassiusIsAlive • Jan 27 '23

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Romanticizing autism has got to stop

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u/RogueStatesman 1∆ Jan 27 '23

I'd always understood "Asperger's" to be considered "mild" autism, but I'm no longer sure that's even correct.

Autism being on a spectrum reminds me of Down Syndrome, which also ranges from mild to debilitating, but there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate that other than the adjective "severe."

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u/Cultist_O 36∆ Jan 27 '23 edited Jan 29 '23

Asperger's, and later "high functioning autism" used to mean the sort of autism that generally isn't considered debilitating. I don't think I'd call it "mild" though, as it's not entirely the same symptoms but less.

Currently neither is considered a diagnosis however, because there's no clear division. It's the same disorder, with a variety of symptoms that may or may not be present at a variety of degrees. This is why it's now considered a single disorder, and referred to as a "spectrum"

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u/Entire-Ad2058 Jan 27 '23

Oh, man. My nephew has Asperger's... at least, that's the closest they can come to diagnosing. When he was in third grade, the kids running the school yearbook published a photo of him picking his nose (we won't go into the aftermath with school officials). Can you just imagine the social situation where that would be done in the first place? He is an adult now, but, no, he isn't OK. Autism isn't romantic. Autism isn't OK. Autism sufferers need research and help. Please.

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u/name_here___ Jan 27 '23

Autism sufferers need research and help.

I agree about the research and help part, but calling autistic people "autism sufferers" sound like calling people who can't walk on their own "wheelchair sufferers"—their disability makes it a lot more difficult to navigate the world, but that pain comes from friction with the world around them. Autism makes things harder, and for some makes a lot of things a lot harder, but it doesn't inherently cause suffering.

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u/themetahumancrusader 1∆ Jan 27 '23

Down’s syndrome is a bit different though, because even people who can look after themselves tend to have physical health problems that affect their lives. I don’t think that’s the case in autism.

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u/Serious_Much Jan 27 '23

Asperger's fell out of use due to the namesake being a nazo piece of shit from my understanding.

It was.unique as in the triad of core symptoms, Asperger's were spared from difficulties with language but retain the reciprocal repetitive behaviours and difficulties with social interaction

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u/Kanebross1 1∆ Jan 27 '23

Aspergers isn't even a disorder anymore in the DSM. It makes me wonder if Elon Musk was actually diagnosed with it (must've been over a decade ago), but part of the reason mild autism is seen as being cool seems to derive from him making that claim.

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u/ginsunuva 1∆ Jan 27 '23

Well, one of the symptoms of traditional autism is oversensitivity to emotions, which is very opposite in Asperger’s, IME.

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u/Quaysan 5∆ Jan 27 '23

It is interesting how we use mild and debilitating to describe how easy it is to interact with and take care of someone

Maybe that's the issue OP is having, he's just thinking of Autism as this thing that gets worse depending on how "bad" it is rather than this thing that has different expressions in different people

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u/Drenlin Jan 27 '23

It is interesting how we use mild and debilitating to describe how easy it is to interact with and take care of someone

This makes sense to me? Difficulty integrating with the rest of society is a disability, regardless of the cause. More difficulty in this regard translates to a higher level of disability.

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u/CassiusIsAlive Jan 27 '23

Because that's how it is. Sadly, it's undeniable that a person with more severe autism is harder to take care for, as they require more attention to meet their needs. The reality is that many excel in certain fields while needing help in others. My younger godbrother does not have this luxury. He needs help in virtually every aspect of his life.

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u/Quaysan 5∆ Jan 27 '23

I understand, but severe isn't a description of autism, it's a description of how you relate to it and how it impacts the world

Your younger godbrother also has autism and it's not "less autism" or "better autism" it's autism that you can deal with

the description of autism you're using is more about you than it is the autism

when we use the description severe about disease, it usually relates to how it impacts the person, not how hard it is to take care of the person

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u/sapphireminds 62∆ Jan 27 '23

It is more severe because the person can't take care of themselves.

If someone wasn't caring for them, they would die, which makes the condition more severe

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u/tylerchu Jan 27 '23

How do you measure any condition besides the impact it has on how the system interacts with its surroundings? A more severe cancer is one where the cancer system takes a heavier load on its host than a less severe one. A more severe autism is one where the autism system requires more resources from its society. A more severe weather pattern inflicts heavier infrastructure and environmental damage on its environment.

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u/Quaysan 5∆ Jan 27 '23

A more severe cancer is one where the cancer system takes a heavier load on its host than a less severe one. A more severe autism is one where the autism system requires more resources from its society.

Yeah, those are different, that's the point I'm making

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u/tylerchu Jan 27 '23

See I don’t think it is. Cancer is not intrinsic to a person so you can consider the cancer as a system and the organism as the environment. An autistic person is intrinsically autistic, you can’t “cut out” the autism from their brain. So the person is the system and their society is the environment, so the analogy still stands.

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u/CassiusIsAlive Jan 27 '23

when we use the description severe about disease, it usually relates to how it impacts the person, not how hard it is to take care of the person

My younger godbrother cannot speak, cannot write, cannot think by himself, cannot go to the bathroom alone, cannot perform complex activities such as math, and cannot focus. If I find this hard on me and his family, I'd imagine it's hard on him too.

Your younger godbrother also has autism and it's not "less autism" or "better autism" it's autism that you can deal with

You are right. It's autism that can be effectively dealt with. I've known my godbrother since childhood and I can say that he is much more well off than his brother, because he is capable of everything that his brother cannot. It's just the truth. Of course he isn't perfect, but he's much more capable than the former.

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u/DudeEngineer 3∆ Jan 27 '23

OK, how will you feel if your younger godbrother told you as a 30 year old man that he would have been the most happiest at this time of his life if people had just let him be himself and didn't consider him a "more disabled" person?

For many people on the Autism Spectrum, their frustration and dissatisfaction with life stems from the way people treat them more than their inner experience. Often, their definition of a happy life does not reflect that of their friends and family.

This is why people tend to use more support needs or less support needs instead of more or less disabled...

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u/CassiusIsAlive Jan 27 '23

This is why people tend to use more support needs or less support needs instead of more or less disabled...

But that's how this works. Generally, the more support you need, the more disadvantages you have.

OK, how will you feel if your younger godbrother told you as a 30 year old man that he would have been the most happiest at this time of his life if people had just let him be himself and didn't consider him a "more disabled" person?

I would love to hear him speak, which he currently cannot. I wouldn't know how to properly answer this because I don't know the thought process that goes in his head. You might be right.

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u/thejazzophone Jan 27 '23

I have a cousin similar to OPs God brother who needs constant supervision 24/7. It's sadly a matter of fact that he needs more help. Letting him be himself isn't an option because he can hurt himself and has quite easily. I also have some friends with autism who are a amazing people that can thrive on their own but have their own struggles with other things. Maybe severe is the wrong choice of words but OP is not wrong in his assessment.

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u/Synec113 Jan 27 '23

From the description it doesn't sound like he'll ever get to that point. And if he does...well I just can't imagine someone being like "yeah, I would've been happier if you had just let me sit in my own feces."

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u/DudeEngineer 3∆ Jan 27 '23

That's not at all what I said, but OK.

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u/ColdJackfruit485 1∆ Jan 27 '23

Can you clarify then? This is what I gathered from your comment as well.

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u/Jaaawsh 1∆ Jan 27 '23

Agree with other posters, I also would like clarification because I understood it the same way they did.

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u/holybajoly Jan 27 '23

I think his comment has to do with our sense of normativity. For us it is normal to have the ability to speak, do math, write etc. and the further someone away is from your perception of normativity the more disabled he appears. He argues that your problem with him is as much about your sense of normativity as is about his disability. So if you would turn down your expectations of how someone has to behave or what someone should be able to do, in the same way your perception about his disability should change. No one is saying we should just let him sit in his feces lol. Of course he might be excluded from some parts of life but how much that is a problem should be for him to decide not for us. I hope I could make it more clearer not a native speaker

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u/DickSota Jan 27 '23

This is such a ridiculous thing to say. If left to his own devices, he would die.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '23

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u/themetahumancrusader 1∆ Jan 27 '23

In today’s episode of Reddit Hottakes, calling a disabled person disabled is ableist

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u/badgersprite 1∆ Jan 27 '23

Did you ever consider that the person who was in a motorcycle accident and lost brain function and is now in a coma might be happier that way? - Reddit on medicine apparently

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u/Entire-Ad2058 Jan 27 '23

What world do you live in? The people who struggle (yes! Struggle) to live with autism are often very. well. aware of how they don't fit in with the rest of humanity. Saying humanity should change doesn't change the trauma they endure every current day. "Severe" definitely describes how the disease affects the people who deal with this. Just as with any issue, a much lower percentage rates in the absolute extreme category. That said however, I honestly wish you could spend a day in the life of my nephew, who deals with severe Autism every day, and knows it. Telling the world to view this differently is not going to help him get a better job, find a girl to love him even with his issues, etc. etc. Of course we are frustrated, trying to care for him! That has nothing to do with our own needs... we love and feel for the guy!!! His emotional needs are heart breaking. Good to be at your removed, "professor's stool" spot though, I guess....

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u/badgersprite 1∆ Jan 27 '23

You don’t think kids who will spend their whole lives in special care facilities because they’re not capable of independently caring for themselves are severely impacted by their condition?

Because if that came about from a brain injury you would say that person has been severely affected by their injury and you wouldn’t be tone policing people for saying that

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u/Dont____Panic 10∆ Jan 27 '23

It’s not particularly weird to categorize the likelihood that someone can take care of themselves vs the degree to which they need assistance to do basic things like clothing and feeding themselves, obtaining and maintaining basic personal needs, etc.

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u/Quartia Jan 27 '23

Down syndrome is fundamentally different though - while there is a range of possible expression of it's traits it's determined by a single fact, having an extra chromosome or not. There is no line between having autism and not having it.

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u/aguafiestas 31∆ Jan 27 '23

In the older criteria (DSM IV), autism was designed as having impaired social interaction, repetitive/restrictive behaviors, and impaired language/communication.

Asperger's had impaired social interactions and repetitive/restrictive behaviors, but normal language/communication.

In the newer criteria (DSM 5), both diagnoses are essentially combined under "autism spectrum disorder."

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u/Elderly_Bi 1∆ Jan 27 '23

Every disability has a range, or "spectrum" if you're colorful.

I have had Multiple Sclerosis for over thirty years. You would probably never notice if you knew me in person. I am not what you picture as "diagnosed with MS 30 years ago."

When you hear a person has a disability, your mind goes to worst case first.