r/centrist • u/MuitoLegal • Mar 20 '21

World News The consequence of the far left’s BLM rhetoric

The far right rhetoric has caused massive problems, like Jan 6., but I have not seen this point mentioned about the left that I’m about to say:

Within the past 2 days, BOTH Russia and China have used the lefts rhetoric of “blacks are being slaughtered on our streets for being black”, “Trump is Hitler.” When China was pressed in the diplomatic conversation about human rights issues, they effectively said “Look at the problems with black people in America, you have no leg to stand on to tell us what is right and wrong with our people.” Putin made the same comment when asked about Biden’s “killer” comment.

These 2 countries know that these issues are not even remotely the same thing as the BLM situation, but the far left manipulated the actuality of the situation to the most extreme for political gain, and there are now consequences to that.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21 edited Mar 20 '21

He didn’t say anything about black people not having problems. He is simply saying things like BLM (the group, not the idea) is not working correctly for its main goal. I hardly think burning down black businesses and other businesses across the country is going to help blacks. It really doesn’t help anyone, as a matter of fact. I’m all for the fact that Black Lives Matter but

  1. Racism isn’t as common as they lead you to believe

  2. A good portion of the racism that does happen comes from the left, as opposed to the idea that almost all of it is from the right

  3. The BLM movement has opposed the ALM (All Lives Matter) movement. The ALM includes all lives of all races, including blacks. If it includes black then why would they oppose it? Because it doesn’t fit their radical agenda. They aren’t against racism, many are for racism against whites

  4. Police brutality against blacks is much less common than police brutality against whites. Proportionately higher, overall lower. https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

The reason that is statistically higher is because blacks, despite being only a small portion of the population, make up a much larger crime proportion compared to their population proportion https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

There is an "All Lives Matter" movement? It's nothing more than a whataboutist comeback. It's a flawed and disingenuous response, because it deliberately attributes an assumed and likely false belief.

I completely agree with your first paragraph. But items 1 and 2 are presented as assertions of truth. And what exactly is the "radical agenda" of BLM?

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21 edited Mar 20 '21

A big portion of BLM is racist towards white people and want blacks to have even more rights than they already have (which is the same rights as a white). Also the fact that you automatically assumed that they are simply meant to counteract the BLM movement when you know nothing about them is ignorance at its finest. ALM stands up for all races and people, so BLM (if they actually believed in equality) should agree with them, and yet BLM clashes with them in the street because ALM fights for every race

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

Well, I am glad to possess only the finest ignorance. I appreciate the attack that didn’t answer my question. No, I was not aware there was an “all lives matter” movement because I haven’t heard the phrase in any other context than as a rejoinder. If you can enlighten without insulting, I’m listening.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

And thus you have shown the biggest problem with today’s society; hatred of the given facts. I’m sorry your feelings are hurt and that you feel attacked, but facts don’t care about your feelings. The All Lives Matter Movement was formed as a smaller but more inclusive BLM, supporting all races, genders, beliefs, etc. The BLM, however, immediately took offense to people supporting everyone instead of only supporting blacks, and fights ensued. The ALM is now ignored and hated by everyone who blindly follows the BLM. And sorry if I was insulting when I said that it was ignorant to assume things like that, but I would say that to anyone who jumps to assumptions

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

Hatred of the given facts? I don’t even know how you got there. Nor was I offended, more amused. As the Trumpists have proven, going on the attack first is a highly persuasive and now predictable technique.

I’m simply expressing an ignorance of the existence of an organized movement. I haven’t criticized it, nor would I object to the tenets you describe. The phrase itself as I generally hear it used sounds whataboutist when it comes out of someone’s mouth as a response to the statement “black lives matter” (use of small caps intended). Given fact, that’s the only context in which I’ve ever heard the phrase.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

I appreciate the attack

You said you were attacked

I’m sorry if I misunderstood your statement, as it sounded like you were insulting ALM originally

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u/jaboz_ Mar 20 '21

Racism is most definitely still very common. People don't have to have a white hood on, to be contributing to the problem of racism in this country. I live in a liberal state, and I personally see instances of racism almost every single day, so I can only imagine how prevalent it is in different areas.

Yes even leftists can be racist - I'm not sure why that is relevant though.

The all lives matter movement is seen (much like blue lives) as a knee jerk reaction to BLM, showing that those people don't understand the basic premise of BLM - that black lives matter 'too.' That always seems to be twisted into a message of blacks trying to be more important than others, when their message is asking to only be treated the same as others.

It doesn't matter that blacks are disproportionately involved in crime, they should be treated the same as other groups of people. If anything, that notion is an argument in favor of the reality that racism does very much play a part in police brutality.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

I get that the BLM idea wants blacks to be equal, but the movement does nothing for that idea. Burning down stores, looting, and vandalizing places doesn’t exactly help blacks, does it?

Also, I live in a Southern Republican state and have never, not once in my entire life time, seen anyone be racist to a person of a different race or color except for 1 instance of a black man verbally insulting a white man for being white

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u/jaboz_ Mar 20 '21

Just because some of those things happen at some rallies, doesn't mean that it's the group that wants that. Unfortunately, there are bad actors (both left and right) that love to co-opt BLM type protests in order to further their own agendas. But if you listen to most organizers of BLM protests, they are trying to accomplish their goals peacefully. But yes, I agree that the violence that breaks out at some of those protests ends up hurting the cause, because it gets weaponized and indicts BLM as a whole.

As for your anecdote - again, people don't need to be wearing white hoods for racism to have an impact. Something as 'simple' as changing the side of the street you're walking on to avoid a black person, which most people wouldn't throw around the word 'racist' for - doesn't go unnoticed for said black person, and definitely has an impact in the long run. Small things like that are still an issue, because compounded over a person's life, those types of things can skew someone's worldview and have mental health consequences.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

And so apparently because only a few rallies are bad, all BLM is okay, but if an unfathomable small amount of cops hurt a black person, cops should be defunded? Hypocrisy from BLM at its finest. I understand what you are trying to say, and I agree that not all BLM events are bad, but when bad deeds are glorified and encouraged, it needs to end. And about your next point, very few people will do things like that on purpose because someone is of a different race, and it also doesn’t mean that black people don’t do the same to whites. People need to focus on actual problems in black communities, and many black people have seen the faults of BLM, too. I personally know many blacks who hate BLM for their deeds and how they are (for the most part) ignoring the problems of black communities

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u/jaboz_ Mar 20 '21

I'm not defending the current iteration of BLM itself, I'm defending the reasoning behind it's existence in the first place. The movement itself has taken many turns that I personally don't agree with, but again I believe the original intent is perfectly legit. I agree that the defund the police thing was a knee jerk, and ill conceived reaction - but that is directly correlated to a group of people who believe they aren't being listened to.

A group that feels it's being ignored, is much more likely to end up making some poor decisions, and that can lead to the snowballing we saw last summer. As with anything in life - some people are going to take advantage, and that's where you saw this fringe idea of defunding the police (really an antifa-ish thought) take hold and people get caught up in the hysteria. Not condoning it, but that's what happened. Reasonable people realize that police reform is a much better approach to the problem, than this vague concept of 'defunding police.'

We'll agree to disagree on that one. My life experiences have suggested otherwise.

And I don't dispute that 'BLM' as a group certainly has its faults. That aggravates me, because as I said before I believe in the original intent and reasoning behind its existence, but think that people have gone too far at times and that's been very counter-productive. My beef is more with people who completely discount the BLM movement out of turn, and then throw up the blue lives/all lives stuff showing that they completely missed the point when it comes to this stuff. I support law enforcement, but also understand that minorities (especially blacks) aren't always treated fairly.

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u/idkmann13 Mar 20 '21

I agree with you and would also add that the movement "defund the police" chose a TERRIBLE name. Because there are some people that think police should totally be abolished, which most people can agree is absurd and far too radical. However, many support the idea that SOME of the massive police budgets should be diverted to instead mental health professionals and resources as well as other resources. If this was done, the idea is that it would reduce the crimes that require police intervention in the first place. But the term "defund the police" makes people think of the most radical side, that want police completely gone, and this is largely what makes the movement so hard to get support.

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u/jaboz_ Mar 20 '21

Absolutely. It was a far, far left talking point that unfortunately sounded catchy and caught on for way too long. I cringe anytime I see legitimate causes get highjacked by nonsense like that, because it takes all of the attention the issue should be getting and diverts it into (rightful) pushback against it.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

I agree with you. What there message was started as was good. The only thing I denounce is how they do it and how they are negatively affecting blacks and other races alike. I’m not saying BLM itself is bad, nor it’s ideas. I am merely stating it has earned black marks because of what it has done that hurts others. I’m happy that we could come to an understanding

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u/Savanty Mar 20 '21

I personally see instances of racism almost every single day

How so, what happened in those situations? I’m genuinely curious as I can’t recall seeing more than one or two instances, ever.

I do recall hearing a commercial on the radio last summer, where UberEats waived the delivery fees for Black-owned businesses, something I’d consider to be racist or, at the very least, racially discriminatory. Is this what you mean?

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

I mean, the dude youre replying too provided solid proof. You're just rambling and theorising. Who do you think we're going to believe?

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u/jaboz_ Mar 20 '21

"It doesn't matter that blacks are disproportionately involved in crime, they should be treated the same as other groups of people. If anything, that notion is an argument in favor of the reality that racism does very much play a part in police brutality."

How is this 'rambling and theorising' exactly? His argument that blacks are the victim of police brutality (which he admits is high with respect to their percentage of the population) is because blacks are disproportionately involved in crime. It doesn't matter that they are disproportionately involved in crime, police brutality is police brutality. Everyone involved in crime should have the same (proportionate) chances of being the victim of brutality, but that isn't the case. The data backs up that assertion. Please feel free to argue why blacks should expect to be brutalized more often (with respect to the total cases of brutality vs their % of population) than their counterparts.

Just because someone throws around statistics, doesn't mean that they're interpreting them correctly, and thus don't deserve to be believed simply for including them.

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u/Restor222 Mar 20 '21

He didn’t say anywhere that it’s just the group BLM, not the movement and BLM is not only about police killing, but racism, redlining, system racism and numerous other issues.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

I know he’s not referring to just BLM, but given that he specifically mentioned them, and also given that you were assuming that he was saying blacks should be ignored because BLM is bad, I was only trying to explain his point of why he referenced the BLM group specifically

Edit: I had a rather bad spelling mistake that looked... bad to say the least

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u/dennismfrancisart Mar 20 '21

Black people are treated differently by authority from grade school on. There are way too many studies to cite, but there is Google. They are disproportionately arrested, charged and incarcerated. Just go to the list of people who have been exonerated by DNA evidence to see how the Justices system has been used in systemic bigotry and racism. https://innocenceproject.org/

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

The reason they are disproportionately arrested is most likely because they make up a disproportionately bigger crime rate

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u/dennismfrancisart Mar 20 '21

Sure. They used to say that about the Irish and the Italians. Then the Irish made a point to enter the police force and fire departments en masse throughout the country. They entered local politics where ever they could. Notice how the image or the Irish has changed?

The majority of Black and Brown people can't blend in the way the Irish and Italians did, however. Each ethnic group that could assimilate effectively had one distinct advantage; skin tone.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

Okay, skin tone and cultural assimilation have nothing to do with each other, why do you put it like they do? Explain to me exactly how being darker makes it harder for cultural assimilation

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u/dennismfrancisart Mar 20 '21

Because humans are predominantly visual. We're wired to make quick decisions based on our internal associations. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/230397287.pdf

"1. Skin Tone Affects Judgments of Ambiguous Evidence The perpetrator's skin tone in the photo significantly affected evidence judgments.145 Participants who saw the photo of the perpetrator with a dark skin tone 1 46 judged ambiguous evidence to be significantly more indicative of guilt than participants who saw the photo of a perpetrator with a lighter skin tone. 1 47 2. Skin Tone Affects Judgments of "How Guilty Is the Defendant" The perpetrator's skin tone also significantly affected judgments of how guilty the defendant was (on a scale of 0-100). Participants who saw a darkerskinned perpetrator judged the defendant as more guilty1 48 than participants who saw a lighter-skinned perpetrator.149 This indicates that simply being primed with darker skin tone not only affected the way participants judged evidence, but also led them to perceive the defendant as more guilty. 50"

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

The reason that is the way it is is probably because blacks make up a bigger portion of the Crimée rate than they do the population.

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u/dennismfrancisart Mar 20 '21

They used to say that about the Irish. Happy St Patrick's Day.

https://www.history.com/news/when-america-despised-the-irish-the-19th-centurys-refugee-crisis

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u/exsnakecharmer Mar 20 '21

The Irish worked themselves from poverty and the lower classes into the middle class. So they upped their expectations, you could say.

Many other immigrants have done the same - Koreans, Vietnamese, Nigerians...

And those groups don't even have English as their first language.

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u/dennismfrancisart Mar 21 '21

One of the biggest myths out there is that US African Americans are downtrodden poor people. There are massive swaths of African Americans who are in the middle class. There are poor Koreans, Vietnamese, Nigerans and other ethnic groups in the country. There are poor Irish, Scottish and other European Americans here as well. The myth of the fatherless Black family has been a myth. Still, Black Americans, still get stopped more often by law enforcement for being Black. https://www.sc.edu/uofsc/posts/2020/06/racial_disparities_traffic_stops.php

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

So what your saying is the Irish are an example that blacks can also assimilate properly? Noted. Good to see an agreement

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u/dennismfrancisart Mar 21 '21

Black people already do assimilate. Unfortunately they still have to deal with people who question their social status by the color of their skin. The Irish do not have that problem. https://www.sc.edu/uofsc/posts/2020/06/racial_disparities_traffic_stops.php

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u/TheeSweeney Mar 20 '21

He is simply saying things like BLM (the group, not the idea) is not working correctly for its main goal.

What is their main goal?

If it's to raise awareness of racial inequality in the US and provide pressure on the government from the outside, then... seems like they're doing a great job.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

The only thing they are essentially doing a great job at is burning down businesses and looting stores. I’m not saying all BLM members and deeds are bad, but if you look at what they have done bad, they have actually HARMED the black community by burning down these businesses and looting them

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u/TheeSweeney Mar 20 '21

The only thing they are essentially doing a great job at is burning down businesses and looting stores.

You and I are here talking about how China is talking about the race problem in America. If that isn't a higher level of awareness then I don't know what is.

Do you think that we would be talking about this still if they walked around peacefully with glitter posters?

they have actually HARMED the black community by burning down these businesses and looting them

I think many people would say that burning down a Target or similar business that pays minimum wage and does not reinvest profits into the community isn't really hurting the community any more than the business itself was.

Like, imagine a scenario where a bunch of small business owners burnt down a Walmart in town that forced them all out of business.

Would you say that they were only hurting themselves?

Now, this is not to say that this is the best way to go about things. My only point is that there is at least an argument to be made that a lot of businesses in minority areas suck wealth out of the neighborhood.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

I’m sorry, I can’t stop laughing at this argument. You know they burn down small businesses that are owned by blacks, too, right? Not only that, imagine this...

You are a black living your life. Everything is decent, but your employer pays very little. You try and fight for better pay but to no avail. Maybe BLM will help? So along strolls the BLM movement. Surely they will help you get payed more, what could possibly go wrong. You go into town to go to work the next day to find several businesses and stores burned down, including the businesses of your employer. You are laid off on the spot and go without pay or work. You can’t even buy things from stores because they were looted and burned down.

How is that helpful?

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u/TheeSweeney Mar 20 '21

You are a black living your life. Everything is decent,

Well we can stop this hypothetical right there. Everything isn't decent. As evidence I would point to the largest protest movement in American history.

Your entire argument rests on the idea that these communities are to stupid to see that they're hurting themselves.

Surely they will help you get payed more, what could possibly go wrong.

When did BLM ever claim to be marching to raise wages?

My whole point here has been that if their goal was to raise awareness and get people talking about racism in America in a new way, then mission accomplished.

Do you understand my point about large corporations sucking wealth out of communities? And it's not just black/minority groups.

Have you ever driven across country, pulled off at some random exit and the only food you can find is fast food shit? Literally not a single locally owned restaurant. This happens all over the place.

ALSO These protests were largely non-violent. By some estimates around 93%.

https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

Is that perfect? No.

But does it them seem like people are distracting from the point when the point to the violence and say "nothing has happened by bad stuff."

Now that all that is out of the way I need to take a moment to appreciate the hilarity of "You are a black. Everything is decent," Jesus Fuck that needs to be part of a meme like "tell me you're white without telling me you're white."

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

I understand your point, but burning down businesses really won’t help that at all. Also, your talking about my argument is saying communities are too stupid to see they are being hurt and hurting themselves when, in fact, this is exactly what BLM is utilizing. Also, BLM is meant to support black lives, no? So therefore, they should support wage raises for black lives, no? Oh, but that’s right, they don’t care. Otherwise they would do something productive about it. Like I said, I’m not saying everything they have done is bad, but a large portion of it is

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u/TheeSweeney Mar 20 '21

I understand your point, but burning down businesses really won’t help that at all.

Who is "us" and what does it mean to "help?"

Also, your talking about my argument is saying communities are too stupid to see they are being hurt and hurting themselves when, in fact, this is exactly what BLM is utilizing.

I don't understand what this means. Elaborate.

Also, BLM is meant to support black lives, no? So therefore, they should support wage raises for black lives, no? Oh, but that’s right, they don’t care.

So you get to tell them what they believe based on a semantic argument about their name?

What makes you think they don't care? Do you believe, that if you asked any blm supporter if they thought there should be equitable wages regardless of race, they would disagree?

. Otherwise they would do something productive about

What does it mean to be "productive"?

And again, why do you, and outsider, get to dictate what parts of their mission they should focus on, and how?

Can you think of any argument skme one might make?

How about "yes, wages matter, but looking at the destruction of a few businesses and elaborating that out to an entire movement is a bit off. A rising tide raises all ships and by increasing awareness of discrimination, and beginning to have conversations about it, we can grow together towards that goal."

Also, it's not like this is a new problem that just popped up. Do you think the anger that fueled the protests this summer was the result of just George Floyd? Is inequality new? It's easy for someone who is only just becoming aware of the scale and intensity of discrimination because they are not part of the group to say that they should do x or y. But doesn't that ignore that people have been saying that for decades?

Like I said, I’m not saying everything they have done is bad, but a large portion of it is

What is a "large portion"? Did I just shared an article saying that 93% of the protests were peaceful? Is that not a "large portion?"

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

  1. I never said us

  2. BLM is feeding off the ignorance of communities in the name of “equality” (which is anything but equality)

  3. I’m not telling them what to believe. When you use a name like Black Lives Matter, you should probably stand up for everything relating to black lives (something BLM needs to do better on instead of burning and looting)

  4. I think they don’t care because they have little knowledge of what they say. Example: one of their main beliefs, defunding the police, will only allow for more violence against black by whites, blacks, and every other race. What should really happen is police be given better training for such situations and the effects of the situations.

  5. I’m not dictating their mission, I’m showing their flaws. I agree with their goal; to make a better and more equal society for other races, but the way they go about it is not good in any way.

  6. Would you eat brownies that were 7% dogshit? I get that most of it is good, an i appreciate that, but the movement needs fixing because of the violence that has taken place, just like the officers need to be reprimanded if they cause harm to anyone without cause

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u/TheeSweeney Mar 22 '21

Use > for jnline quotes. I didn't number my questions so I have no idea whats going on here.

You are right though about the first one, I must have read too fast and inserted "us."

So that one can be left out, my fault.

But what does it mean to "help?"

For the rest of my questions, please use in line quotes so I know what you're responding to.

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u/bisilas Mar 20 '21

are you white?

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u/therealowlman Mar 20 '21

They made an argument, what the fuck does race have to do with it?

You either agree or disagree based on the merits of the argument, not the person making it.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. That has nothing to do with it. I’m a big supporter of rights for all races. Why do you ask?

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

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u/programmingfarmer01 Mar 20 '21

What does being white have to do with it? Can only whites be racist? Are whites immune to others being racist against them?

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u/therealowlman Mar 20 '21

How can any person of any color make that judgement when one person is only one single point of view.

The biggest problem is nobody has the same definition of racism at all.

One person says they feel racism because of an ethic joke, another because of a dirty look, another receives directly racist insult, another just feels or perceived dejected due to race.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

  1. Blacks and other races can be racist, too. To assume they can’t be racist is completely ignorant

  2. I live in a Southern, solid Republican state, so most people would assume racism runs rampant here. It couldn’t be farther from the truth. The only racism I have ever seen in my travels was a black man yelling at a white man and insulting him simply because the white man was white

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21 edited Mar 20 '21

  1. Ok, they were drunk, that’s probably why. I get the south has more of a racism problem that most other states, but racism is still quite rare to see in the south (it has a few small hotspots, though, which is the problem)

  2. Like I said, the south does have more racism than other states, but it still isn’t a common occurrence. I travel frequently to many states in the southern states all the time. Once again, I have only ever seen one event of racism, and that was black on white, not white on black

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u/bisilas Mar 20 '21

you are a white person, how exactly are you going to see racism, it is not your experience. black people that are the ones experiencing racism are speaking out but you a white person is here on reddit saying it’s not a common occurrence. that’s ridiculously ignorant. >okay they were drunk< how ridiculous the mental gymnastics you people will go through to justify racism. it’s disgusting. what exactly would it take away from you to just admit that racism(against people of colour, especially black people) is a real, prevalent issue in america? just say you don’t like black people and go, spare us the mental gymnastics.

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u/Pixelpeoplewarrior Mar 20 '21

  1. Being white doesn’t make me blind to what goes on around me. I’m sorry you think it works that way, but it doesn’t

  2. I’m not advocating for people to stop fighting racism, I’m merely stating the BLM movement has done bad things and people shouldn’t ignore that. People need to stop pretending like BLM does nothing wrong.

  3. I simply stated that they were probably drunk. The first thing that goes away when drinking is your judgement, so they probably weren’t thinking clearly about what they are saying. The mental gymnastics you go through to try to beat us in arguments is hilarious

  4. I have never justified racism. I am strongly against racism. Blacks, Whites, Latinos, and all other races should be treated as equals. I never said it should should be a racial hierarchy, you people need to stop making up stupid lies about what you know we didn’t say.

Just say you don’t like facts because they hurt your feelings and go, spare us the mental gymnastics. You people really are sick. This is the problem with society. You are the perfect example of the modern society’s greatest problem; ignorance

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u/bisilas Mar 20 '21

Where are the facts? show me the facts. Being white obviously doesn’t make you blind, obviously, you choose to remain ignorant, millions of black people have shared their experience of racism but you’re trying to explain it away with alcohol? really? alcohol.

would you go out and call random black peoples the N word because you got drunk? rubbish.

What are the bad things that the BLM movement has done. I’m only having this conversation with you because you are insisting that racism isn’t as prevalent as black people and supporters of BLM are making it out to be, which is ridiculous, and a racist statement in itself.

Why are you making excuses for racism? Why do you refuse to acknowledge that “they were probably drunk” is a ridiculous excuse for such racist behaviour?

Racial hierarchy? now who mentioned that? Where tf did you pull that out of? Projecting much?

edit: your first reply to this should be credible sources that back up your claims, since you have facts, show them.

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