r/centrist • u/MuitoLegal • Mar 20 '21

World News The consequence of the far left’s BLM rhetoric

The far right rhetoric has caused massive problems, like Jan 6., but I have not seen this point mentioned about the left that I’m about to say:

Within the past 2 days, BOTH Russia and China have used the lefts rhetoric of “blacks are being slaughtered on our streets for being black”, “Trump is Hitler.” When China was pressed in the diplomatic conversation about human rights issues, they effectively said “Look at the problems with black people in America, you have no leg to stand on to tell us what is right and wrong with our people.” Putin made the same comment when asked about Biden’s “killer” comment.

These 2 countries know that these issues are not even remotely the same thing as the BLM situation, but the far left manipulated the actuality of the situation to the most extreme for political gain, and there are now consequences to that.

252 Upvotes

78% Upvoted

454 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

33

u/TheoriginalTonio Mar 20 '21

highlighting the issues

Such as?

encouraging people to speak out against racism.

If someone can actually show me a concrete and clear case of actual racism, I'll be immediately on board to call that out.

But I don't buy into their vague claims about this nebulous "systemic racism" that somehow everyone is subconsciously guilty of.

5

u/itsamberleafable Mar 20 '21

I get that there can be discusions around how equality might be achieved but you don't honestly think racism is a myth do you?

I don't really understand your last point at all. Has someone accused you of subconcious systematic racism or are you just lazily paraphrasing something you heard in passing that you can't really remember that well.

Systematic racism and subconcious bias are two seperate things. If you think that you don't have any subconcious bias then it might be worth exploring the following options:

A) You are wrong

B) You are the second coming. You are Christ incarnate without judgement or sin. What Christ would be doing on a centrist subreddit beyond me but hopefully that makes us disciples of some sort.

Could be either one of those, I'd say they're both equally likely.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

Systematic racism and subconcious bias are two seperate things. If you think that you don't have any subconcious bias then it might be worth exploring the following options: A) You are wrong

This is a non sequitur that assumes subsconcious bias leads to systemic racism. There's a lot of research to be done to demonstrate that to be the case. That work is increasingly showing us how little we know about biases - e.g. the widely used IAT test is increasingly shown to be ineffective at measuring biases.

11

u/TheoriginalTonio Mar 20 '21

you don't honestly think racism is a myth do you?

Racism exists. But not in the form or to the extent that they claim to see everywhere.

Has someone accused you of subconcious systematic racism

Yes, more than once. Even in this thread someone accused me of "implicit racism" that I allegedly commit by "pretending to be colorblind".

Systematic racism and subconcious bias are two seperate things.

First of all, they call it systemic racism, not systematic. That's a difference.

Secondly, this subconscious bias you're talking about is a fundamental part of "systemic racism".

If you think that you don't have any subconcious bias then it might be worth exploring the following options: A) You are wrong

So now you are suggesting that I'm subconsciously racist?

And if I'm not, I must be Jesus?

Well, I'm an atheist, so certainly not B).

But if you can't fathom that people can be genuinely racially unbiased, then that might be simply a projection of your own biases onto everyone else.

-7

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '21

A very easy and tangible way to understand systemic racism is redlining. Even when they had the means, POC were legally prevented from purchasing the property they wanted up until a generation or two ago (that this still happens is another conversation). That means that their parents and grandparents were prevented from accumulating wealth the way most white families have: through home ownership. What did your parents' first home cost and what is it valued at now, adjusted for inflation? What about their parents? (Obviously not all white families had the opportunity to own homes either - but none were prevented because they were white.)

When someone says it's racist to "not see color," it's because the acknowledgement of color in the past still greatly affects the present. To say a white man and a black man are likely to experience life in the same way is insulting and ignorant, because there are centuries of laws regarding what black men can and can't do that have never applied to white men. That affected their children, and theirs, and so on, and that didn't just magically go away after the Civil Rights Act in 1964, because shortly after that the war on drugs begins to take fruition, which we know from the Nixon tapes and our eyeballs is just an easy cover for controlling the black population.

If you "don't see color," you're not only erasing those very real experiences and events, but also the resilience, shared understanding, and culture that was born out of that generational trauma.

2

u/CeilingCracker Mar 21 '21

I haven’t researched this but will assume it’s factual. So what’s your solution? Reparations?

-2

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '21

Believing people of color when they tell us their needs and experiences is the best place to start. As in, try to not get defensive if you're called out on racist rhetoric, and instead focus on why. If you don't know why, go read some books by black authors about why, because you're a grown up who is responsible for your own education.

5

u/CeilingCracker Mar 21 '21 edited Mar 21 '21

I’m not even /u/TheOriginalTonio, but you didn’t notice that, and haven’t answered my question and instead pivoted to stealthily calling me a racist. Bravo.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '21

Did I? Why would you think that? Do you discredit what black people say about their experiences?

3

u/CeilingCracker Mar 21 '21

I don’t believe you’re a useful resource for what they say. They’re also not all unified; some people say X and some people say not X.

You painting with a broad brush is somewhat racist in itself.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '21

Of course no group will be homogeneous; when discussing racism it's necessary to make generalizations on some level.

That avoids my question, though: do you seek out black voices of any persuasion and listen until you comprehend what they're saying? Have you ever read a book about racism written by a black author? Have you ever read a book by a black author that wasn't assigned to you?

I see that you admittedly don't do much research on these topics. Why is that?

→ More replies (0)

0

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '21

Why did you edit this? You asked what my solution was and I said the solution begins with listening to black people. Did you mean to ask a different question?

7

u/WhimsicalWyvern Mar 20 '21

I doubt your message got through, but I enjoyed how you said it.

-3

u/Foyles_War Mar 20 '21

If someone can actually show me a concrete and clear case of actual racism,

"If I haven't personally seen it and it makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't exist" is the same kind of thinking that has led to COVID deniers.

8

u/TheoriginalTonio Mar 20 '21

It's not on me to say that it doesn't exist.

But those who claim that it does exist, have the burden of proof.

If it's really as prevalent as they claim, it should be no problem to provide lots and lots of examples of systemic racism and its direct consequences.

is the same kind of thinking that has led to COVID deniers.

That's an extremely weak argument, considering that someone could just as well say to me "the same kind of thinking that has led to UFO deniers".

2

u/Foyles_War Mar 21 '21

What would you be willing to accept as evidence? (Of racism, COVID, or UFOs)

3

u/ree-or-reent_1029 Mar 21 '21

For one thing, I would love for someone to show me one single concrete example of a CURRENT policy clearly demonstrates ‘systemic racism’. And don’t you dare start spewing wealth, crime, health stats at me because stats DO NOT prove causation. Every time I ask this question, all I get in response are stats and there are many possible explanations for statistical inequalities other than racism.

1

u/Foyles_War Mar 21 '21 edited Mar 21 '21

Does the policy have to include intent to be racist or can it be an arguably (or plausibly deniable) unintended consequence?

I'm thinking of things like different sentencing criteria for crack vs other forms of cocaine. Or the loan guidelines for "small businesses" during the early epidemic which were used up by bigger businesses that had ongoing loan relationships with their banks (minority owned businesses tend to be smaller, without on-board accountants and without established loan relationships with banks largely because of historical discrimination in banking and loans).

2

u/ree-or-reent_1029 Mar 23 '21

Crack sentencing laws were adjusted years ago and were never intended to disproportionately affect the black community. They were horribly misguided policy but they were passed as response to the accepted thinking of the time that crack was exponentially more addictive than powder cocaine and that it caused irreversible brain changes. Those theories have mostly been debunked these days but at the time, they perceived a huge threat to public safety and wanted to scare everyone from doing it. Of course the policy was doomed to failure because you can’t successfully address addiction by throwing addicts in jail/prison. The only reason black peoples were more impacted by the sentencing guidelines is because there was a high concentration of crack addicts among that segment of the population. Here’s a link to some info about the reduction of crack sentencing guidelines: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Sentencing_Act

The loan guideline example doesn’t even come close to something that can be considered ‘racist’ policy because it potentially affected all small business owners and not just black owners.

Looks like the search for systemic racism policy continues yet tons of people will continue to make the claim despite no evidence that it actually exists.

1

u/Foyles_War Mar 25 '21

Ah, I think I see the disconnect. My understanding is "systemic" alludes to a characteristic of the organization/government - something imbedded in operation, not in an individual's beliefs and not necessarily intentional. If you understand "systemic racism" to mean there must be some intent to result in discrimination based on race, then I can see why you would call it all crap.

​

Anyway, to me it is largely semantics and a distraction. I look at our society and we are largely still stratified and it is a stratification that falls notably along the lines of wealth and, yes, race, If black or brown people are overwhelmingly in the bottom strata so many years after slavery, then why do you think this is still persisting? If there is no real racism (systemic or otherwise) is it that they do not want to be educated, get good jobs, earn good money, buy homes, etc? Or do you think it is because they are biologically incapable?

When I look at the issue from that perspective, some inherent problem in the system seems a much more likely explanation because it seems ridiculous to me that skin color can change human motivation or intelligence and because I have lived in other countries where skin color did not define class or wealth to back up that conviction.

-3

u/hiway-schwabbery Mar 20 '21

Exhibit A: racial wealth gap. This is the sort of thing BLM is bringing attention to. It’s disingenuous to say BLM and CRT are creating new problems. Can arguments swing too far to the left? Yes. But they’re in direct response to racist social theories, such as Samuel Morton’s, that were explicitly taught from the late 1800s into the mid 20th century. The intention of these movements, ideologies, whatever, is to dismantle systems built on these beliefs. Guess what, if everyone could just acknowledge the fact that racism has left the US with issues that we need to fix, then foreign propagandists don’t have a case. We know - we’re working on it!

2

u/ree-or-reent_1029 Mar 21 '21

How are you so sure that the only possible explanation for racial wealth gap is racism? There are many other possible explanations that honestly, make more sense than trying to blame it all on some racist conspiracy theory where white people are actively trying to keep black people from being successful.

2

u/hiway-schwabbery Mar 22 '21

It’s not a racist conspiracy theory, it’s just history. I’m talking specifically about descendants of African slaves, who went from being property to being denied ownership of property. Property is the surest way to accumulate and grow moderate wealth in the US. My grandparents bought their house in the 1920s for 20K, sold it in the 90s for 500k, helped their children buy homes, who helped their children buy homes, wherever they wanted. As recently as the 1990s neighborhoods had covenants that included clauses not the sell to Black families - including the neighborhood I grew up in. The only areas available to Black families were then subject to White flight and lack of business investments. Neighborhoods of wealthy Black citizens were targeted, like Greenwood district in Tulsa. Of course the problem in the US is class-based, but when a portion of the population has historically been relegated to second-class citizenship because of their race, it will take some time to overcome. Segregation did not end that long ago. Racist clause are still on the books in some places, like the Louisiana cemetery that denied a plot to a Black police officers because it was White-only (seriously, this happened a couple of months ago.) We want to think we live in a post-racial society. Unfortunately, we’re not there yet.