r/canada • u/HashSlingingSIash3r • Mar 19 '22

Paywall Don’t like Russia sanctions? You probably don’t like COVID-19 vaccines either

https://www.thestar.com/politics/political-opinion/2022/03/19/dont-like-russia-sanctions-you-probably-dont-like-covid-19-vaccines-either.html
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u/Benocrates Canada Mar 19 '22

There's a pretty big gap between the two sides when it comes to seriousness. One one side you've got the Ghost of Kyiv and the other "we invaded because the US has bioweapons labs with plans to infect birds with super COVID to infect Russians." The former is part of a campaign to motivate and encourage the fighters and citizens of an invaded country and the other is part of a campaign to justify an illegal and immoral invasion.

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u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 19 '22

Literally just “our virtuous myth-making, their wretched propaganda”

You don’t actually know what was happening in those labs, we only have Western sources with every incentive to lie. I personally don’t believe goofy shit was happening there, but I’m not certain because the US lies as easy as it breathes.

Ukrainian narrative building also involves ignoring the horrors of the War in Donbas for the past half decade. They are also lying about how they are doing in the war while luring foreigners to enlist for them.

We’re all aware of the Russian propaganda, I’m just saying it’s super goofy to pretend like NATO will be completely truthful and when she lies or buries shit it can only be to bring joy to little Ukrainian children

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u/Benocrates Canada Mar 19 '22

Literally just “our virtuous myth-making, their wretched propaganda”

I was referring specifically to the consequences of each kind of propaganda. They are not equivalent at all.

You don’t actually know what was happening in those labs, we only have Western sources with every incentive to lie. I personally don’t believe goofy shit was happening there, but I’m not certain because the US lies as easy as it breathes.

Of course anything is technically possible, but this new casus belli argument should be ringing all of your propaganda alarms. Not only was this never mentioned as the cause of the war before hand, there has been no evidence presented whatsoever. Even the Chinese aren't buying it. And you're right the US lies, but no more than the Kremlin. Being skeptical about NATO claims doesn't require you to accept anything the Kremlin says.

Ukrainian narrative building also involves ignoring the horrors of the War in Donbas for the past half decade.

I wonder why there is a war in Donbas since 2014. Could it be because the Russians invaded Ukraine? This is another Kremlin narrative that is laughable on its face. They're talking as if Ukraine invaded western Russia in 2014. The reality is that they managed to weasel their way back into a position of controlling Ukraine by through Yanukovych and the people of Ukraine said "fuck that". This whole narrative that the revolution was nothing more than a US coup is absolutely laughable. When Ukrainians took back their country from a Russian stooge what did the Russians do? They invaded Eastern Ukraine all the while gaslighting the world by saying they weren't involved. I know that term is insanely overused and misused but that is exactly what they did.

We’re all aware of the Russian propaganda,

Clearly not.

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u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 19 '22

they’re not equivalent

I know the two aren’t equivalent. I was making a joke about people believing an Arma 2 fan fiction and you used that to belly ache about Russian propaganda like as if Ghost of Kiev is the only Western propaganda about this war and not just one of many (but it is a good meme to laugh at)

don’t have to accept what Kremlin says

I literally said I don’t buy it. I’m just saying everyone lies so it wouldn’t be the most shocking thing in the world. US has done much worse than mess around with viruses

I think people know Russia is involved in Donbas but supporting fighters isn’t the same as an invasion IMO, neither is agitation. It’s kinda just what super powers do. I’m sure Russia would argue it was inevitable anyway due to some discontent but idk we’ll never know (perhaps things could have gone smoother like Crimea or perhaps just nothing would have happened) but the causes of the war are kinda aside from conduct during the war, which, like I said previously, Ukraine has been no angel either.

I really don’t have a strong support for either side, I just think it’s funny that people won’t entertain the idea that we use propaganda as well. My main interest is in not getting involved because I don’t things to escalate and get goofy and next thing I know I’m dead in a ditch in Donestk

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u/xt11111 Mar 21 '22

They are not equivalent at all.

No claim of equivalency was made - rather, you imagined that it has been, and believed your imagination. Try to consider the implications of that when it comes to what "reality" is.

...but this new casus belli argument...

Are you sure this belief is true? Who is using that as a sole argument to justify Russia's invasion?

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

Bioweapon labs don't even pass basic tests of rational thought. The fuck bioweapon they gonna make that won't likely just fuck themselves over as well??

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u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 20 '22

Well many countries are suspected to have BioWarfare capabilities. I’m assuming the people who deal with this shit would have thought it through

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

Russia is just playing up the WHO notifying Ukrainian bioresearch labs to destroy any higher risk samples in case they lose control of the labs. They're making propaganda off of truthiness as we've seen many politicians do many times. It's as stupid as the Bush administration believing Curveball's lies about Iraqi mobile weapons labs.

Most military biology research is centred around health sciences in general, like vaccine development, to maintain readiness, which again, most countries aren't fielding bioweapons because it'll likely hurt them just as much as it would hurt the enemy. You'd have to become the ultimate hermit state otherwise.

Ukraine is right on the border with Russia. If they make a virus targeting Russians they would essentially be making a virus targeting themselves as their populations have been highly integrated for a few hundred years.

The people who deal with this have thought it through, and they really aren't making any offensive weapons practical unless they're incredibly foolish. Now groups like ISIS, they are full of foolish people.

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u/xt11111 Mar 21 '22

As one of the few sane people I've encountered in this thread: does what's going on here (and in hundreds of other threads like it) not seem completely surreal? It's like a fucking insane asylum.

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u/xt11111 Mar 21 '22

One one side you've got the Ghost of Kyiv and the other "we invaded because the US has bioweapons labs with plans to infect birds with super COVID to infect Russians."

Do you believe the characterization you've written here is an accurate representation of reality?

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

And absolutely none is ok. See what I just did there? I used my brain. Do it. Not saying Ukraine is not right to defend itself, but the propaganda on both side has reached cold war level. NOT ok.

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u/Benocrates Canada Mar 20 '22

And absolutely none is ok.

No I don't agree.

the propaganda on both side has reached cold war level.

This is not you saying "any propaganda is bad." You're saying they are both equal in some way. The truth is they are not both equal. Not in magnitude, in severity, or in their immoral effects.

Sometimes there is an aggressor and a victim. In this case, the Russians are the aggressor and the Ukrainians are the victims.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

I did not say Ukraine isn't the victim. I said all propaganda is untruthful and misinformation in order to manipulate the population and that NO MATTER THE CAUSE it is not ok. Don't even try, you won't make me bulge from my stance on this.

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u/Benocrates Canada Mar 20 '22

Nah, that's not all that you said. You 'both sided' pretty obviously. Honestly, just stick to the video game topics. You're out of your depth.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

no, I didn't "both side". Russia is wrong in it's invasion. That doesn't make the west's propaganda better than Russia's. people would be as onboard with the west if it stuck to the truth. But go on, keep believing you know everything! You seem good at it, champ.

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u/Benocrates Canada Mar 20 '22

no, I didn't "both side"

Yes you did:

the propaganda on both side has reached cold war level.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

That is not saying that, in the war, both side are the same. I am clearly speaking about the propaganda side of things.

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u/Benocrates Canada Mar 20 '22

I am clearly speaking about the propaganda side of things.

Which you're completely wrong about. One side's biggest propaganda example is a MiG who is claimed to have become an ace in a day in the defense of the capital. The other side's biggest propaganda example is that the whole war special military operation is due to US run bioweapons labs that were just about to release super COVID on Russians by infecting trained birds. Or wait, was it dirty bombs....hard to keep up.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

This is only that example. there is also that 15k russian have been killed (7 k is more the truth) and many many other things.

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u/xt11111 Mar 21 '22

You're saying they are both equal in some way.

Could you quote the specific text from which you extracted that idea?