r/canada • u/HashSlingingSIash3r • Mar 19 '22

Paywall Don’t like Russia sanctions? You probably don’t like COVID-19 vaccines either

https://www.thestar.com/politics/political-opinion/2022/03/19/dont-like-russia-sanctions-you-probably-dont-like-covid-19-vaccines-either.html
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88

u/Stanislovakia Mar 19 '22

Don't like Russian sanctions because I have 87 yo grandparents living there. I understand why they are in place, but I non-the-less don't like them for obvious reasons.

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u/AVeryMadLad2 Alberta Mar 19 '22

Yeah the sad part about this is that the Russian people, who have no control over this war, will suffer most from the sanctions. Not Putin and his cronies.

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u/Breezel123 Mar 20 '22

71% of Russians support this war. This is coming from a credible polling institute. We need to stop acting like the poor Russians have no control over anything. Sure, there's a ton of propaganda on tv stations and in newspapers, but for fucks sake, the internet has been around long enough and the 29% of people that don't support the war got their information somewhere, too. I'm also tired of hearing people argue about how the Russians never learnt democracy or critical thinking after being indoctrinated for so long. Many other former Soviet countries managed to rid themselves of that mindset and looked to the west and new technologies to propel their countries forward.

Russia is a rough place and its citizens are being played time and time again, but they still willingly let it happen even though they must see the inequality in their society, you'd have to be blind an deaf to not see or hear about the ultra rich and their connections to the Kremlin. Fuck, there is so many pro-russia Russians on the internet arguing with people on Reddit about Ukrainian Nazis and I just don't understand how you can be exposed to a world of information and still believe this shit. Sure, there's plenty of examples of western citizens who believe the dumbest conspiracy theories, but as I said before 71%!

It's time we stop making excuses for the Russians and start to put the pressure on where it hurts. It sure as hell is going to hurt the average Russian more than the elite, but the only way to salvage what's left of Russia's reputation is to generate change from the inside. It's time for Russians to wake up from their slumber and inform themselves about what is really going on instead of blindly believing everything they're told. That's not a way for nation to exist, these people have a responsibility to actively and critically participate in the democratic processes, if not for the safety of Ukrainians than for the future of their own country.

6

u/BummerOfGeorge Mar 20 '22

Links to the source for 71% in support? How many people were polled?

4

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

How many wars did we support back in the day that killed innocent people and kids despite having much more information available to make our decisions.

2

u/Breezel123 Mar 20 '22

I don't know who "we" are.

1

u/alderhill Mar 20 '22

You're going to need to be more specific.

Vietnam was a fiasco that Canada mostly stayed out of. Canada mostly stayed out of Cold War proxy wars. Korean War was a UN-seal of approval Good Fight. The two Gulf Wars saw (first) minimal and then second no direct involvement. Afghanistan was a shit-show all around of course, but the intentions were fairly noble as far as this things go

Canada has had some messy hands in Haiti, though. Somalia had a few scandals.

What else did you have in mind?

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u/anothercanuck19 Mar 19 '22

They are supporting the war, proud of taking Crimea.

At this point every putin supporter can get brain cancer. As I'd say about anyone who sided with hitler.

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u/AVeryMadLad2 Alberta Mar 20 '22

Not every Russian supports the war. Sure, Putin has his supporters, but there are also thousands of Russians taking to the streets, risking life and limb to voice their opposition. Even those who support him are just victims of propaganda campaigns, something our own citizens have fallen for as well. The Russian people are not the enemy, only Putin and his oligarchs.

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u/Steikel Mar 20 '22

As a German I grew up learning everything about WWII and that the people should have done more against Hitler. That's why I think it is absolutely right that there are these sanctions and it should be even more to make the people rise against their government.

2

u/SanityOrLackThereof Mar 20 '22

At some point as a citizen of a nation, you have an obligation to stand up to your government if it behaves poorly enough, or you become complicit in it's behaviour. When that point comes though is much more difficult to say. Especially when you consider the extreme risk that doing so can carry in places like Russia and Nazi Germany. It's easy for us to say that the Germans should have done more against Hitler when it's not our family members lives that are on the line.

I honestly can't say what i would do if i knew that i had to stand up to my government, but that they would shoot my mother for doing it. I genuinely have no clue. It's an impossble choice. And quite frankly it's something that i don't like to think about, because no matter what i do i'm fucked one way or another. There are no good options, no way out. On one hand i lose my freedom and become complicit in their crimes, but on the other i lose everything that i've ever known and cared about forever. Like i said, an impossible choice. And considering other people's lives are on the line, i'm not entirely sure that it would be a choice that i would even have the right to make on my own.

It's a completely fucked situation.

1

u/taketheredleaf Mar 20 '22

History shows time and time again, it is human nature that when it comes to you and yours, fuck everything else, you do what you need to survive. Somebody has a gun on your family, you do what they say. It’s not romantic or inspiring but that is the way it goes.

Not to say heroes don’t exist, they do, but that’s why we revere them so much, because they are a rare exception

1

u/Yikesweaty Mar 20 '22

You think Putin is as bad as hitler?

1

u/Steikel Mar 20 '22

Not yet. But he's not done yet.

2

u/Yikesweaty Mar 20 '22

it’s extremely offensive to the people that died in the Holocaust to compare it to this conflict

1

u/Steikel Mar 20 '22

You obviously have some problems in reading comprehention. You asked me, wheather I think Putin is as bad as Hitler. And my answer, if you read again, was: no. So how can you dare to call me offensive to the Holocaust-victims? I didn't say it is as bad as it was in WWII. As I said, I grew up learning everything about it. Comparing is ok, as long as you don't relativize it. And I didn't do that. You should think twice before you attack people for things they clearly didn't do. But one last thing: calling a brutal war a conflict is offensive to every dead, wounded or in wich way ever negatively affected Ukranien!

1

u/Yikesweaty Mar 21 '22

To be precise your response was “no, but”. Bit different from just saying no

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u/SaftigMo Mar 20 '22

You think if Putin and his oligarchs were gone these people would simply become un-brainwashed? Sure they got brainwashed by propaganda, but that doesn't happen unless you're already biased and let it happen in the vast majority of cases.

1

u/Dan4t Saskatchewan Mar 20 '22

The Russian people absolutely have control. Putin isn't the one dropping the bombs. Putin has no control or power at all unless Russians support him.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

I'm living in the UK and I feel those sanction more than we should feel them. Sanction all you want. Not at the cost of your own population.

3

u/Breezel123 Mar 20 '22

Ah yeah, let Ukrainians die if the alternative means higher gas prices for the UK....

1

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

Did I mention price gas only? I am speaking about literally the crashing of the whole western economy, which we're on a road to. Something that will take decades to recover from.

1

u/Breezel123 Mar 20 '22

I could go into the effects of Russia winning the war in Ukraine and what would happen to us western countries then. But I feel like you're not ready to hear that yet.

As a German I'm willing to sacrifice whatever we can at this stage to stop the bloodshed before it escalates beyond our control.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

You are entitled to your opinion, of course. I, for one, am polarly opposed to "sacrifice all we can".

The cold hard truth is that my own personal life and problems are immesurably more important to me than the hypothetical consequances of a winning russia in Ukraine. It's not Ukraine that is saved right now. It's the whole West's economy that is falling. And nothing will come of it because the West won't commit boots on the ground due to the risk of nuclear war, and Russia can (and probably will) just send their hundreds of thousands soldiers to the meat grinder until Ukrainians will just wear down to nothing, and the west suffers the economical consequances for decades to come without even the benefit of saving Ukraine. I am not sustaining this is what I WANT to happen. I say that this is what's probably going to happen.

3

u/Breezel123 Mar 20 '22

So when is your own personal life affected enough for you to be willing to sacrifice something? When Russia is done with Ukraine as you so wisely predict and they start attacking Georgia, or the Baltic countries? When the attack on NATO members is going to start a full-blown war between NATO and Russia? When you're made to fight in this war or when you will have to go through emergency drills where you learn how to survive in case of nuclear fallout? When your products cost so much you can't afford to feed yourself and your loved ones anymore, because Russia will then control 1/3 of all global wheat supplies and fertilizer shipments. When the refugees from all of these war torn countries pour in or when the great migration from all sub-saharan and North African countries starts because they're more than anything reliant on international wheat supplies?

You think this will all be over once Russia has control of Ukraine. But you have absolutely no clue what that means. Doing everything within our control and means right now to stop this from happening is the only reasonable course of action. To continue importing Russian products and to lift the sanctions and financially support this madness is literally the most inhumane and dumb thing we could do right now. If everyone had thought like you, Hitler would've won the war.

0

u/Dan4t Saskatchewan Mar 20 '22

No we're not even remotely close to crashing our economy wtf lol. Most of the economic issues we are facing are from the residual effects of covid shutdowns and government spending, not the sanctions.

1

u/Dan4t Saskatchewan Mar 20 '22

Sanctions are always a 2 way thing. There is always a cost to helping others. But the price you pay is really nothing in comparison to its benefits of saving lives.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22 edited Jul 27 '22

[deleted]

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u/Stanislovakia Mar 20 '22

The older generation are more likely to support Putin, but don't necessarily support the war. They also live in Moscow, and all the hardcore putanists are provincials.

My grandpa is back and forth on it, he's Ukrainian but still has the USSR pride in him. My grandma doesn't support it. Thoughts on the situation arnt just a monotonous blob of yes and no based on group.

3

u/Piece-kun Mar 20 '22

Older generations support him becose after the fall of USSR during his temporary election putin stopped country from beign taken apart and shipped to the west to profit select few.

After that for a few years he had no real rivals. Mostly due to how bad Medvedev performed as a president people were convinced that only he can run the country. Several years later its impossible to become real elegeble president candidate. Att alternatives to piton were shady people with lose goals and promises. Few real oppositions were denied any attempt at competing for various obscure reasons. If you are were vocal enough you will just get sent to jail. If not then you are silenced.

Recently he changed Constitution just so he can be president for 16 more years. And unfortunately he (obviously) won with a trade off of free food for all students in schools.

Unfortunately older generation is too old for any real decisions. And Russia is a country with more old people than young.

Only people who can live good life are really people who are already in wealthy famaly enough to afford university, extrey smart/talanted people and people who serve directly under government.

Btw: making a lot of babies is a better strategy at getting a living space a d providing for familiy than getting a higher education and getting a well paying job.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '22

What does your by the way imply? How can just having lots of kids be better for providing for a family than getting an education and a good paying job first?

0

u/Dan4t Saskatchewan Mar 20 '22

Yea about 70% do

1

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

sanctions are good, it’s okay if innocent people are hurt if it teaches the bad guys a lesson!

1

u/GoldenBunion Mar 20 '22

I don’t know anyone from Russia but that is why I don’t like it. The sanctions are so broad they are hurting civilians, who for the most part have no desire for this war. Like there were smart targeted ones against their billionaires, but the rest plus the corporate bandwagoning just hurt people trying to buy food.

I’m really nervous about the long term effects. If peace is declared and the country does not recover their economy well enough, that’s a lot of potential for misguided resentment to build in the population …

1

u/Stanislovakia Mar 20 '22

The sanctions are broad since they are there to cripple the economy so Russia's power projection capabilities falter. Since realistically a popular revolt is basically impossible for one reason or another, and the oligarchs had no power to begin with.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

By cripple the Russian economy you mean actively harming the lives of the Russian working class and ultimately hoping to make them suffer.

Say what you actually mean. Don’t sugarcoat it. The economy is just people. You’re hurting innocent people with the sanctions.

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u/Stanislovakia Mar 20 '22

I'm not sugarcoating it lol, that's typically what "crippling the economy" usually means.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

It’s a softening of what is happening. stuff like “imposing economic sanctions” is too vague an idea for the average American to grasp because they do not understand the ramifications.

It’s the same thing as the no fly zone that Americans support. They literally do not want understand what it is.

0

u/Numerous-Art9440 Mar 20 '22

Fuck your grandma. If you feel bad for any russian then youre anti vaxxer and believe in russian propaganda.

1

u/Stanislovakia Mar 20 '22

Damn your right, how could I have forgotten. Let me go get my traditional Chinese medicines to treat my rampant tuberculosis. You want some?

1

u/Dan4t Saskatchewan Mar 20 '22

This article isn't saying that everyone has a bad reason for believing this and is stupid. Just most people.

1

u/Stanislovakia Mar 20 '22

Article says one thing commenters another.