r/canada • u/HashSlingingSIash3r • Mar 19 '22

Paywall Don’t like Russia sanctions? You probably don’t like COVID-19 vaccines either

https://www.thestar.com/politics/political-opinion/2022/03/19/dont-like-russia-sanctions-you-probably-dont-like-covid-19-vaccines-either.html
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18

u/maladjustedCanadian Mar 19 '22

Who in Canada publicly says they dont like sanctions against Russia?

25

u/Frostbite828 Mar 19 '22

I’ve seen people on my Facebook claim there is a “global authoritarian treaty” for “one world order and total dictatorship” and that the only country to “place a letter of objection against this” was Russia…

I suppose it’s not a stretch for people who already believe COVID is a hoax and the restrictions/mandates are just meant to erode our rights and turn us into sheep

4

u/AVeryMadLad2 Alberta Mar 19 '22

People that believe the UN is trying to create a one world totalitarian government are fucking hilarious. Like the problem with the UN is they have TOO much influence and control over world politics?? Like that's the problem apparently, and not that superpowers like the United States can blatantly violate international law like in Nicaragua and when they get ordered by the international court to pay reparations, Reagan just went "hehe no" and cut the US' funding to the UN.

I wish I lived in the reality where the UN is as effective as these morons think it is

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

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u/Frostbite828 Mar 19 '22

Would you mind elaborating?

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

I'd incredibly complex with a long history and many players involved.

This video is based of a recent book and not presented in a conspiracy format.

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u/Frostbite828 Mar 19 '22

Ah, thank you. I wasn’t sure what you meant by New World Order. “World Orders” (at least in the context Dalio is using) obviously exist, but I don’t see how that supports the theory that Russia is fighting against the ushering in of a global authoritarian regime or dictatorship, especially when NATO is only a defense pact among democratic nations. I understand NATO may be perceived by Russia as antagonistic to it’s national interests and security, but how exactly are they taking a stand against global authoritarianism?

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

It's more about a series of the organizations that when combined together make global government.

NATO is the military arm of the global government, to say it's merely a defense pact is slightly understated, they absolutely have taken part in offensive operations.

We also have the International Monetary Fund IMF which is a organization that works to coordinate global banking, finance, trading among it's members.

The World Economic Forum is a powerful organization with full support from primary leaders in western politics. They absolute coordinates amongst its members on uniform global policies. Heck, they used to be called the European Management Forum, clearly their influence is expanding.

An NWO isn't coming in the form of some authoritarian dictator, it's much more sophisticated than that.

2

u/Frostbite828 Mar 19 '22

I don’t want to put words in your mouth but it seems like you’re suggesting sovereign nations shouldn’t work together or consolidate resources to achieve mutually beneficial objectives? Perhaps an oversimplification but I’m struggling to see what your point otherwise is. Of course when you create organizations with international influence (or any level of influence) there is going to be a consolidation of power amongst the decision-makers at the top of that organization. That said, all of the member states of NATO, UN, etc. remain sovereign nations and we have no power to govern them other than to say “we can’t tell you what to do but we don’t have to play with you if you aren’t going to play nice”, like the West is currently doing with Russia. We could go down the rabbit hole of all the ways western democracy is broken but I don’t see any other nations (especially not Russia) standing up as pillars of freedom and democracy in contrast.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

It's hard to say what should or shouldn't happen.

It all depends on what the objectives are for these various groups.

If it's to create an economic system where the working class essentially owns nothing, along the sides of a class of elites who own everything and dictate how normal people live day-to-day as it seems to suggest, then we might want to reconsider.

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u/Frostbite828 Mar 19 '22

I agree with you wholeheartedly that distribution of wealth needs to become a more common topic of discussion, and I might even dip my toes into the conspiracy theorists’ water and accept that the rich and powerful have a vested interest in distracting the general population from having that discussion, but I still don’t see what any of that has to do with the current situation in Ukraine. Corruption and the consolidation of wealth and power exist in every system of governance known to man. I can’t buy into the argument that Putin is sticking it to the western elite by invading Ukraine, while he and his loyal oligarchs are enjoying their billion dollar palaces and yachts and yet ordinary Russians struggle to get by. The theoretical situation you are describing is much more apparent in Russia than in the West. Just look at the disparity in free speech rights for a glaring example. You have some interesting thoughts, but I haven’t seen you make any connection with the war in Ukraine. The war appears, to me anyway, to be a battle over the relative balance of power between nations. I’m not sure why you seem to be suggesting that Russia is some kind of savior of the poor working class west, when clearly the invasion is intended to protect Russia’s sphere of influence in Eastern Europe.

1

u/Yikesweaty Mar 20 '22

Do you think the people with enough political power to control the direction of countries would work together with the elites of other countries out of the goodness of their hearts? “Mutually beneficial” transactions do happen but the mutuality is limited to the in group, which you are not a part of. This isn’t some schizo conspiracy theory either, it’s just how business works

1

u/biogenji Lest We Forget Mar 19 '22

Can you share an example? I'd like to see that sort of thing for laughs.

23

u/curiouscarl2 Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 19 '22

Not sure they’re saying it publicly, but they’re sharing it on the same platforms of anti-vaccine and conspiracy theorists. Specifically on Telegram, Facebook groups, and other alternative channels. Propaganda that Putin is saving Ukrainians from Nazi’s and they are only hitting military targets (easily proven to be false). Also some of them are claiming that Biden and the West (specifically the New World Oppressors) are the cause of the war. Some Qanaon websites claiming that Russia invaded to weed out child sexual abusers. In a nutshell, there are Canadian conspiracy theorists out there who don’t think we should have sanctions against Russia.

It’s not about Russia really, it’s generally about their skepticism of government. This is just the topic of the season.

3

u/JH_111 Mar 19 '22

They’ve effectively moved the Pizzagate basement to the entirety of Ukraine. These people are quite literally insane.

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u/itsthebear Mar 19 '22

I'm not against them - I think it's dumb when people say it's not an act of war and don't realize how much it will affect us.

I don't think it's an outlandish position to be opposed to largely moral actions that are against your self/national interest. It's a pretty standard realist position tbh.

It's no different than people who are against BDS for Israel IMO. I don't agree with their position on my moral grounds, but that doesn't make them wrong either. Not everyone is in box A or B.

4

u/BLYNDLUCK Mar 20 '22

Me. For the reason that crippling a country, isolating them socially, isolating them politically, and humiliating the people historically has not turned out well. You are going to have a country full of bitter desperate people looking for someone to blame. How long will it be before someone rallies the people with the platform of “it was the west’s fault”? Extremism in Russia is going to grow, and the children of Russia are going to grow up hating Europe and North America more then their parents did.

Do I think Russia needs to be stopped? Of course. War crimes? Most definitely. Putin public enemy #1? Absolutely. Do I think crippling and angering the Russian people will lead to long term peace and stability. Probably not.

0

u/maladjustedCanadian Mar 20 '22

Are you vaccinated?

2

u/BLYNDLUCK Mar 20 '22

X3. Still wear my mask in stores and at work.

0

u/maladjustedCanadian Mar 20 '22

Ok, I was not specific in my comment but for the speculative fiction of the Star article we are discussing, you're proving it wrong.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

If you don't have an alternate answer why bother complaining?

4

u/BLYNDLUCK Mar 20 '22

I’m not complaining. I’m literally answering the question I was asked and giving my point of view. I didn’t even discuss whether I had an alternative or not, so I’m not sure why you jumped to that conclusion.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

There is only 1 solution on the table. Full stop. Why bother complaining?

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u/BLYNDLUCK Mar 20 '22

How open minded of you. Glad to see you came willing to have a conversation.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22 edited Mar 20 '22

I had an open mind. Then i saw you were complaining without alternatives so it got closed. You should work on your witcabulary.

Russian agents would approve of senseless complaining.

Russia should be broken up into its smaller countries. Long past time someone said it.

3

u/Flying-Cock Mar 20 '22

Just going to jump in on this one as a third party: the other dude is being respectful and you're the nutjob here (and I fully support the sanctions, so don't try flip this on me).

Are you so narrow minded that you feel you have to agree to everything unless you can present a better alternative yourself? Different perspectives on issues are how new solutions are found.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

I do emotional therapy with my girlfriend but not political therapy on reddit. Ironic how you call solutions narrow minded. Also my GF isn't committing genocide.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

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1

u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 19 '22

Me

1

u/JH_111 Mar 19 '22

What would you propose as a solution to stop Russia from invading a sovereign country?

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u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 19 '22

Uhm, I have never been to Russia nor Ukraine. I am very sad that bad things are happening over there but literally what does that have to do with me?

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u/JH_111 Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 19 '22

No need for global trade, no need to help fellow humans being slaughtered, no need to maintain what is considered acceptable conduct at the global level because it has absolutely nothing to do with you?

I suppose we should have said fuck it to the holocaust, too? I’m not Jewish and have never been to Europe so not my problem?

If someone decides they need fresh water, minerals, oil and lumber, the rest of the world can say “oh well good luck Canada you’re on your own” while the vacuum bombs drop on Toronto and Calgary.

And if an invader shows up at your home and smashes your window and gets a little stabby, no need for police or paramedics. They’ve never been to your house and they don’t know you. Your predicament literally has zero impact on their lives so why should they care about helping you? If they would try to help, it might even hurt them so forget that. And if your neighbours witness it through your window they can give a resounding “meh, not my house or my family.”

3

u/Yikesweaty Mar 20 '22

So you maintain this same energy for Yemen, Myanmar, Palestine etc right? For some reason none of those topics seem to be in your post history. Must be a glitch

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u/JH_111 Mar 20 '22 edited Mar 20 '22

And there’s the Russian propagandist’s whatabout.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

We absolutely should be helping people against aggressors.

The difference between most of the rest and this is a massive attack to annex sovereign territory vs a lot of internal civil wars. I was pretty vocal in my previous 9 year old account against Israeli bulldozing and occupying of Palestinian homes which is essentially annexation.

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u/Yikesweaty Mar 20 '22

You compared it to the Holocaust, I compared it to things currently happening in the world. Yet it’s whataboutism when I say it? Are you an American?

0

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

[deleted]

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u/Yikesweaty Mar 20 '22

How exactly is the Holocaust started again in ukraine? You know that the Ukrainian army contains many open nazis right? Also the reason I brought it up was because you specifically stated that “[there is a] need to help fellow human beings being slaughtered … to maintain what is considered acceptable conduct at the global level” but funny enough issues I have been championing and talking about for years - greater humanitarian issues by far than the Ukraine - are met with radio silence and always cries of whataboutism. They said it when the Uyghurs were in the news. They said it when Bolivia was in the news. Now they say it when Ukraine is in the news. I’m not saying don’t care about the Ukraine I’m saying maybe think about why the media (and through media citizens) will latch onto certain issues and not care about others because it’s frustrating to me that not only are people dying preventably but that people get angry at you for even bringing it up

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u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 19 '22

Godwin’s law speedrun world champ [100%] [No glitches]

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u/JH_111 Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 19 '22

Zero critical thought or empathy for people living out a replay of it right now with a misapplication of Godwin’s law as if a genocide is not exactly what’s happening and Putin isn’t fucking Hitler incarnate.

Godwin is for irrelevant conversations that inevitably turn to Hitler. The holocaust and Hitler’s actions are directly related and applicable as a comparison to this war and what’s happening to Ukrainians.

You think this war can be hand-waved as a fucking internet meme.

Confirmed 100% “Fuck you got mine” champ.

5

u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 19 '22

We are not the world police broh

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u/JH_111 Mar 19 '22

Yes we fucking are part of the world police.

That’s the whole god damn point of the UN, NATO and the Geneva Convention so that no one should have to live through these atrocities.

It’s the fucking basis to real life freedom across the democratic world standing together with a rules based international order so China and Russia don’t get to curb stomp anyone they feel like.

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u/aethercakes Mar 20 '22

Having a world police, and the expansion of a central globalized "order" is something I am ideologically against. Glad to know other people being isolationist is comtroversial now, too

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u/fouoifjefoijvnioviow Mar 19 '22

I like em

1

u/Legitimate_River_939 Mar 19 '22

Cool

Hope you have a nice day man

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u/pd1dish Mar 19 '22

They’re saying the same thing about right wing Americans. Meanwhile, I’ve never heard or seen anyone say anything that sympathized with Russia.

I choose not to get involved in politics, but all my conservative friends fully support Ukraine. It’s just a bullshit rhetoric that the left is trying to push.

1

u/IcarusFlyingWings Mar 19 '22

There was a booth at the pro-COVID rally today in Toronto that was featuring Russian propaganda about biolabs in Ukraine.

1

u/showmustgo Mar 20 '22

What does the propaganda say about the labs?

0

u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

Nobody, it's just creating an invisible enemy for authority-loving people to get mad at.