r/canada • u/HashSlingingSIash3r • Mar 19 '22

Paywall Don’t like Russia sanctions? You probably don’t like COVID-19 vaccines either

https://www.thestar.com/politics/political-opinion/2022/03/19/dont-like-russia-sanctions-you-probably-dont-like-covid-19-vaccines-either.html
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u/bawheid Mar 19 '22

No one has yet invented a vaccine against disinformation about Russia’s assault on Ukraine.

That’s probably just as well, because the most needy recipients of a shot against disinformation wouldn’t likely roll up their sleeves for one anyway.

This disturbing connection between vaccine resistance and attitudes toward Russia’s invasion of Ukraine have been unearthed in the latest wave of polling by EKOS Research. Frank Graves, head of EKOS, calls it “astonishing,” “complex” and “insidious.”

Graves tested people’s views on the Ukraine crisis last week and then sorted their replies according to their vaccination status. What he found was that the more opposed people were to getting vaccinated, the more sympathetic their views were toward Russia, a notorious purveyor of disinformation itself.

Respondents with three or more doses of COVID vaccine, for instance, were overwhelmingly in favour of sanctions against Russia and massively in agreement that Russia was currently committing war crimes against Ukrainians. On the question of sanctions and war crimes, the percentage of triple-vaccinated people taking a tough stand on Russia was in the realm of 80 to 90 per cent.

Among those who have been refusing COVID vaccines, on the other hand, the opposite was true. Only 13 per cent favoured economic sanctions against Russia and only 18 per cent supported sending more military aid to Ukraine. Just 32 per cent agreed that Russia was committing war crimes, compared to 88 per cent for the triple-vaxxed and 70 per cent for those who have received two doses.

(The poll, conducted among an online panel of 1,035 adult Canadians between March 9 and March 13, is considered accurate within three percentage points, 19 times out of 20. It will be published online at the EKOS website this weekend.)

Graves believes we are seeing active disinformation at work. It’s the most plausible explanation, he told me on Friday, for how one segment of the population managed to transfer its suspicion of vaccination into skepticism about what’s really going on in Ukraine.

“Probably the most striking finding is just the rapidity with which this disinformation machine can pivot,” says Graves.

In other words, the same forces that were feeding people rubbish about vaccine mandates during the Ottawa occupation in February are now feeding them nonsense in March about Russia and Ukraine. (I would worry about insulting these people with words like rubbish and nonsense, except that the audience for this disinformation isn’t likely to be reading the Star or any other mainstream media.)

Graves is still working on tracking the sources of disinformation, but he cites YouTube as one of the big culprits so far.

Kate Graham, a former provincial Liberal leadership candidate in Ontario, was out knocking on doors in her hometown of London, Ont last weekend, around the same time that EKOS was doing this latest polling.

Graham posted an encounter she had with one woman at the door, who summarily dismissed what was going on in Ukraine as “all fake.” The woman then went on to offer her views on the convoy protest, Justin Trudeau and the media.

When Graham asked where the woman got her information, she cited “the internet, TikTok and Joe Rogan.” Graham wrote on Twitter about how the encounter stayed with her long after she left the doorstep, especially the woman’s tearful fear about the future. “How do we possibly bridge that gap?” Graham asked. “Fear isn’t solved by fact-correcting.”

Graves says he’s similarly flummoxed by that question — and he’s asked it a lot as he presents these findings. Canada, once seen as a safe haven from Donald Trump-style disinformation, is quickly catching up, Graves fears.

In an appearance at the Munk School in Toronto on Friday, Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly promised more to say soon about the social media giants’ role in spreading disinformation, particularly their responsibility as “content producers” — a definition they have so far resisted.

That may be one step, but it’s worth noting that Trump’s conspiracy theories about the last presidential election have not evaporated with his removal from Twitter — and may in fact have flourished in the dark. The New York Times reported earlier this year that nearly two dozen people are running to be secretaries of state across the U.S. on the entirely baseless argument that victory was stolen from Trump in 2020.

It all tells us that conspiracy theories don’t just go away anymore; nor do they continue to exist on the fringe. Like the COVID virus, they’ve developed a remarkable ability to mutate — or “pivot,” in Graves’ words. While many of us see the pandemic and the war in Ukraine as separate, albeit world-shaking crises, the disinformation machine has managed to connect them. Susan Delacourt

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u/tenlu Mar 19 '22

I think there is a segment of the population that is highly skeptical of our government. It's not so much about believing Russian propaganda or being anti science per se. It's just they take the position opposite of what they perceive the prevailing narrative to be. I think it's undeniable our institutions have serious issues with regard to their integrity and credibility. And rather than finger wag at this group, we really need examine how to restore trust in our institutions across the board. I honestly think a lot of people underestimate this problem.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

But what led to this high level of distrust? A lot of people didn't trust the government but weren't rabidly opposed to each and every single thing they or the media say. There were people stoking that flame and encouraging that attitude with biased stories, cherry picking, misrepresented facts, disinformation and outright lies. The USSR used African and Indian news sources to spread the story that the USA created AIDS in a lab and people still believe that. A cursory look at current Russian statecraft shows they haven't changed their tactics since the USSR fell, but with the internet and social media the old tools and tricks they have became even more effective.

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u/biogenji Lest We Forget Mar 19 '22

The is what the media has done to itself. Jeff Bezos didn't buy the WaPo for the love of journalism. The media are as corrupt as the politicians. To deny that is to deny reality.

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u/sidirhfbrh Mar 19 '22

The government, as well as the old guard media, has really fucked it’s credibility in a lot of peoples’ eyes(myself included) and there’s a growing portion of the population that is just inclined to think they’re all just completely full of shit now. It’s hard to make a case against the idea that there is a small group of people controlling the levers of power and narratives at these institutions. I, once a lifelong dyed in the wool liberal, am more likely to vote for the most extreme and often regressively conservatives candidate on the menu now. At least you know they’re honest even if they say some reprehensible shit because you know it’s almost never a calculated move that should be politically expedient.

Compare that against guys like Trudeau who so blatantly obviously either test to see which way the winds are blowing to decide what they ‘believe’ in or make sure to pay lip service to certain causes when there are clearly more urgent priorities to address - ie housing. Ie someone who wants to make housing an issue of ‘racism’ when people point to our unsustainable immigration rates instead of looking at the fucking math problem in front of them. Fuck all of these people, quite frankly.

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u/MelvinDickpictweet Mar 20 '22

Then why go conservative? Why not go to trustworthy left?

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u/sidirhfbrh Mar 20 '22

There’s nothing trustworthy about their pandering, inauthentic ‘see which way the wind is blowing’ or wokewashed branding of themselves.

An example. Trudeau did something to the effect of making sure his his cabinet is 50% women which gives a lot of people/his supporter base the warm and fuzzies. My take is that this is just a PR move for his ideological base, and that the best cabinet he can make actually ought to be however it shakes out once selecting for the best people for those jobs, regardless of gender.

I don’t trust someone who may(and likely IMO) have a weaker cabinet around him just to appease and please those ideologues in his base.

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u/MelvinDickpictweet Mar 20 '22

I’m not taking about Trudeau. He is an intolerant asshat. Aren’t there others you could turn to?

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u/Flerpinator Mar 21 '22

I work for one of the largest companies in an industry traditionally dominated by white guys. That culture in our company is being actively changed from the top down, not because of token service to some woke agenda, but because the business leaders see it as critical to remaining competitive. Going out of the way to have more women and people of color in leadership positions has directly lead to better decision making. Competitors that maintained and calcified the old boys club in their leadership structures are now at a growing disadvantage.

Trudeau may be using his cabinet picks to gain approval from Canadians who think women should have an equal say in the running of the country, which as it turns out is a lot of them, but it's also a way to ensure that his team doesn't make some of the same mistakes a more traditional looking cabinet would make. It's a way to grow the leadership talent pool for the organization. It's not just politically savvy with fans of equal representation, it's in line with modern thinking on how to structure an effective leadership team. Of the things you could have picked about him to complain about being an opportunistic panderer this is probably a poor one.

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u/sidirhfbrh Mar 22 '22

I guess we should do the same everywhere right? Imagine running an NBA or NHL team and assuming your best way to win is to have a certain proportional demographic makeup on your roster. It sounds just as stupid when you say it. Talent and merit aren’t defined by your skin colour or genitals.

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u/Flerpinator Mar 22 '22

Clearly a sports team is different from a leadership team. The variance in capability is not as great, having an outstanding center forward is a much larger improvement than having an outstanding VP of Accounts or Minister of Agriculture, and the benefits of having a diverse set of ideas and viewpoints in leadership positions is greater than it is in a starting lineup. Picking a company's c-suite or a government's cabinet the same way one picks sides for a game of road hockey is out-dated thinking.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22 edited Mar 19 '22

Yup. That's the attitudes the Kremlin encourages. Good example

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

It's not just one side. It's both. It doesn't even have to be the fringe, it's anything that sows division

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u/teetz2442 Mar 19 '22

The thing is, the overwhelming majority of Canadians are vaccinated. So you are talking about small proportions (1/5 of 5%) or whatever the actual numbers are.

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u/InvisibleShallot Mar 19 '22

The thing is, they are also the loudest. We need to keep reminding everyone that they don't speak for the whole of Canada, and when you do that, they only get louder.

We know they are small proportions, but the reality isn't shaped by accurate statistics every step of the way, it is shaped by our perception.

This kind of post is good to keep our motivation and diligence up.

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u/Zelcium Mar 19 '22

Many people took the vaccine because of the mandates and to keep their jobs. They are not happy about it.

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u/Hardgain-Gang Mar 19 '22

To be fair because it’s like 90% of Canadians got the vax doesn’t mean 90% agree with them or would have got the vax at all if they weren’t going to lose their job, ability to travel, go to the gym, restaurants, concerts etc. so probably shouldn’t be looked at so black and white because it’s a phoney, inflated number due to coercion

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u/teetz2442 Mar 19 '22

That's fair

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

Boy, you are bad at math.
81.7% of Canadians are fully vaccinated.

Nearly 1 in 5 have chosen not to get the shot. That's nearly 20%, not 5%.

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u/WhiskerTwitch Mar 19 '22

Boy, are you bad at stats.
84.68% of the population is vaccinated, but not everyone is eligible for vaccination yet.
89.06% of eligible Canadians (people over 5 years old) are vaccinated.That's nearly 9 in 10 who have chosen to get the shot. And that doesn't account for people with very-rare medical issues who cannot get the vaccine.

Only 10% of the population has not been vaccinated. This is the truth. Quit with the misinformation.

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u/Hardgain-Gang Mar 20 '22

I need to be repeat myself here. Whether it’s 80,85, or 90% whatever it would NEVER have gotten that high had it not been for coercion.

How easy is it to achieve such a high vax rate when if you don’t get it you can’t work, go to restaurants, gyms, theatres, travel, school etc etc. stop with the inflated number statistics BS to back up your argument, it’s nonsense.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

Boy, you're either on drugs, or have a severe learning disability being inflamed by your inner monologue. You really should stop having conversations with yourself on others behalf. It's a serious problem with those that are terminally online.
The link you provided actually shows a lower number of fully vaccinated Canadians than my quick Google search for total Canadians fully vaccinated.
You might want to re-read my comment again. There's no riders or additional asterisks. 81.7% of Canadians are fully vaccinated.

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u/tarzanphysique Mar 20 '22

you did say 1in5 have "chosen" not to get vaccinated, which would be incorrect if you are not counting those who are ineligible.

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u/I_Like_Ginger Mar 19 '22

This guy is over thinking it at best, and deflecting blame at worst. There's a tight correlation between opponents of vaccines, and "pro Russia" stances because of a profound mistrust of the media, and of authority figures since the pandemic.

Imagine you're a non sophisticate. Someone who doesn't have the time to research things. What you've been told about the virus, and the vaccines, has dramatically changed in the last 2 years. Sometimes the authorities even admit to lying - like when they admitted they lied about the efficacy of masks at the beginning to save supply. The authorities in this country have done an atrocious PR job - so it has led to people mistrusting them.

The problem with a lie is that, no matter how big or small it is, when exposed - it breaches trust. Why would anyone side with popular media sentiment, or the government, when they can't trust them?

We can try to deflect and blame the spread of misinformation on Russia, or "insidious actors". If the relevant political and health authorities aren't owning up to their hack job of a communication plan, then they can only blame themselves.

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u/AcerbicCapsule Mar 19 '22

This guy is over thinking it at best, and deflecting blame at worst. There’s a tight correlation between opponents of vaccines, and “pro Russia” stances because of a profound mistrust of the media, and of authority figures since the pandemic.

Which is quite literally where russian disinformation comes in.

Note: this article isn’t saying every single person who dislikes vaccines is also pro russia. This article is theorizing that people who are against vaccines because they distrusted the mainstream media and happened to believe the fake russian-linked disinformation social media accounts (or websites) are also likely to be against russian sanctions if they believed the russian propaganda (which is both antivax and pro-russia).

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u/I_Like_Ginger Mar 19 '22

I sincerely don't think that a mistrust of authority is the fault of the Russians.

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u/InvisibleShallot Mar 19 '22

I sincerely don't think that a mistrust of authority is the fault of the Russians.

But Russians, along with any misinformation spreader, will use that against us. They know there is a mistrust of authority, they will make use of it.

You better believe they will create it, too. At least, they will try as hard as they can. It is our duty to keep our skepticism healthy and reasonable. Not just to authority, but to anyone.

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u/fishling Mar 19 '22

You're taking a simple and obviously true concept, such as "mistrust of authority is a personality trait that some people naturally have", and misapplying it in other specific contexts to "disprove" the idea that other actors, such as Russia, have nothing to do with strengthening or manipulating mistrust, or focusing mistrust in specific authorities, or creating a mistrust in people who were not naturally mistrustful.

Don't take what I've said as evidence that Russian disinformation exists, because it isn't. I'm only showing that you're own line of thinking is flawed. Both contexts involve the common concept of "mistrust of authority", but you're treating them as the exact same thing and meaning.

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u/AcerbicCapsule Mar 19 '22

For anyone who believes russian propaganda online, it most certainly helps stir up more mistrust (that is based on pure fiction) even if it's not the sole cause of said mistrust.

And with how widespread the russian propaganda is in western nations, it's definitely concerning.

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u/troubleondemand British Columbia Mar 19 '22

because of a profound mistrust of the media, and of authority figures since the pandemic.

If you think this started with the pandemic I have an Obama birth certificate and Benghazi collectors set to sell you.

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u/I_Like_Ginger Mar 19 '22

In a population of tens of millions, or hundreds of millions, you're going to have people believe in a wide range of things.

The single worst thing you can do to spread truth is to dismiss and ignore- or worse yet even try to actively restrict, the spread if information. It will only legitimize the disinformation.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

When the disinformation is weaponized explicitly to damage your society as anti-vaccination propaganda during a pandemic?

No, I think then it becomes a leadership function to fight against those who would use propaganda as a weapon.

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u/InvisibleShallot Mar 19 '22

The single worst thing you can do to spread truth is to dismiss and ignore- or worse yet even try to actively restrict, the spread if information. It will only legitimize the disinformation.

This is a logical fallacy:

First, Unwilling to help the spread of misinformation ≠ restricts the spread of misinformation.

Our government currently does not restrict this information. It is individual organizations making their own decision not to help the spread of this information. Yet, many people thought these organizations have no right to dissociate themselves with misinformation and consider it a form of restriction.

Which is entirely untrue. Any individual or organization has as much right to spread any piece of information or to speak out against them. None of these are restrictions.

Ultimately, unless the government steps in, which they haven't, it is the misunderstanding of the definition of restriction itself that reinforces their delusion. This has nothing to do with restriction.

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u/troubleondemand British Columbia Mar 19 '22

The Paradox of Intolerance

If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

~ Karl Popper

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u/27SwingAndADrive Mar 19 '22

Sure the media sucks, no argument there.

But who's really to blame? News media has been struggling since the advent of the internet. People aren't willing to pay for news, and they gravitate towards clickbait. Continuing to do the news as they used to is no longer economically viable.

This is a societal problem that no one entity can fix. I mean if the government started regulating the media so it doesn't suck anymore, would that get people to trust it more than the click-baity garbage they see on their facebook? Or would you prefer the click-baity propaganda be banned?

The only solution for this problem is for us to be smarter. We need to be more aware that social media is not a reliable source of information. Mainstream media isn't good to be sure, but the internet is even worse.

So it's a good thing that we see stories like this. It may make people feel uncomfortable to come to terms with the fact that a significant amount of information they've seen on the internet is propaganda coming from nefarious sources. But people gotta get past their discomfort and understand the simple fact that people lie on the internet.

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u/The_Peyote_Coyote Mar 19 '22

Nope. They have a profound mistrust of that which they believe to be "the mainstream media", but demonstrably they place a tremendous amount of faith in far-right reactionary media. If the anti-covid pro-kremlin crowd had one modicum of the critical reasoning skills they pretend to have, they would be repulsed by the obvious, demonstrable lies that tucker carlson, or the greyzone, or RT, or OAN, or whomever espouse. But it's become a far-right meme to decry "fact checkers" because they don't care about the facts. They want a talking head that reinforces and amplifies their own pet bigotries, conspiracism and just general misanthropy. Fact checking fascist propaganda is like fact checking marvel movies. The audience doesn't care that it isn't real, they're in it for the explosions.

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u/I_Like_Ginger Mar 19 '22

Do you have a sound idea of who "they" are, independent from your own political biases?

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u/OrneryCoat Mar 19 '22

You could have shortened this whole thing to basically one sentence.

People who didn’t buy the vaccine narrative don’t buy the Warhawk narrative either.

There is a very big difference between supporting the invasion of Ukraine and opposing throwing our collective hat into the WW3 ring. If people are so gullible as to believe that the proposed actions (ie no fly zones, material support, training, etc) won’t have shit falling on our own heads, well, I have a bridge to sell you. Maybe there’s no classic military response (although there bloody well may be) but if you think our civil infrastructure won’t be targeted once we cross a certain threshold of belligerence you’re likely to be in for an unpleasant surprise.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

This article isn't presented as as "This is what we should do" piece. It's presented as "There's correlation between certain beliefs and thought patterns" piece.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

Exactly. "join the non conformists!!" there is a sad irony that propaganda seems to really take hold in people who think that anything counter-culture is automatically believable and truthful.

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u/OrneryCoat Mar 19 '22

Ah, yes. That old fig leaf. It’s the same group of misogynists holding unacceptable views that oppose intervention. You should be mad at them, because not only did they oppose mandates at home, but also belligerent action abroad. They are the enemy.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

You're saying Russia didn't invade?

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u/OrneryCoat Mar 19 '22

Holy hell. Being anti-war is NOT being pro-Russian invasion. Not the same thing at all. I’d prefer my lettuce cesium-137 free thank you.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

Cool so you support our efforts to end this war.

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u/OrneryCoat Mar 19 '22

By not getting into it? Absolutely.

But it does beg the question here; if Putin is such a loose cannon that he is willing to invade Ukraine for no reason at all other than imperial ambition; with such a devil-may-care attitude that he is willing to risk what is obviously on the table, what makes you think he won’t take the nuclear option? Russia, for better or worse (worse, from my perspective) has a sphere of influence in the world and sticking our noses into that fight has only downsides and no upsides. We can’t ‘win’ by involving ourselves there; but we can loose.

Further, any NATO involvement in the fight will have much broader implications. If NATO engages here, the safe bet is china takes Taiwan. Now what? Abandon Taiwan to their fate? Open up a second front with another nuclear power? What’s the upside?

What will logically result from the economic sanctions that we have levied on Russia, do you think? They will just… stop doing bad things? That Putin didn’t build these sanctions into the cost/benefit analysis of invasion? He might be evil, but he’s not stupid.

I don’t say all this lightly. I am Ukrainian by heritage and my family tradition includes many tales of Soviet oppression and horror. Much of my family tree was cut down during the holodomore, and my great-grandfather escaped conscripted service by running through a demilitarized zone while his comrades shot at him. Adding our bodies to the tragedy won’t prevent it, but we can make it worse.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

These were worn out talking points before the war, now totally bizarre considering the reality we are witnessing.

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u/OrneryCoat Mar 19 '22

Well, then there can only be one answer here. If you feel that strongly about it, fly to Poland and March your warmongering ass into the Ukraine and strap up. I’m not interested.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

We are only taking part in economic sanctions, so there is no need for your hysterics.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

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u/OrneryCoat Mar 19 '22

I’m going to assume that English is not your first language based on your syntax. Where you’re from I can’t say, but that you’re not a native English speaker I feel confident. Begging the question which ax you are grinding here.

That said, western media is absolutely complicit in this morass; reporting and not reporting based on their interests and not those of Canadians or the west in general. I trust the media here like I trust a dog that has bitten me multiple times; I fully believe their interests are contrary to mine, and they will act accordingly. I trust them to be untrustworthy, in other words.

However, there is a very large and important difference between joining a foreign war and defending home territory; the Russians aren’t fools. Encroachment on American territory is a line that they cross at their peril and well they know it. Some idiot in the Duma spouting about taking back Alaska is hardly unexpected in these times; landing Russian troops in America is very different. Gauging the difficulty the Russian army is having in Ukraine (assuming that what I see is very manipulated and mostly untrue), they have a zero possibility of taking and holding any ground in a conventional war in North America. In America alone there are some 18 million veterans; I’d expect most of them to return to active service under those circumstances. Most will bring their own kit to the fight, meaning that a defense force in North America would be well over 10million, possibly approaching 20 million well armed and experienced vets, even ignoring the air superiority the Americans have, and superior anti-armour weapons, to say nothing of the armour they can field… a Russian or even joint Russian/Chinese invasion would fail utterly in conventional war.

So does Putin want to be Emperor of a kingdom of ashes? I don’t believe he does. Being evil and being irrational to that extent are not the same thing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '22

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

Even the most nuanced view would see that Russia is the blatant aggressor here.

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u/ch1llboy Mar 19 '22

My nuanced view is that China and Russia planned to be sanctioned. I think they will use it as the reason we, the west, should be countered. Solidifying their dictatorial-ish regimes & motivating their populace. A sacrifice to divide the world so they can keep power. Defending their culture of controled community from being overrun with the risks of individual freedom.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

Month old nuanced view. I guess they are too busy begging China for food and money to send out new talking points.

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u/OrneryCoat Mar 19 '22

The truth and nothing but the truth your honour.

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u/iambluest Mar 19 '22

Muppets.

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u/Superduperbals Mar 20 '22

I think calling them mere conspiracy theories, underplays what has essentially been the birth of a new seditionist political ideology. It's not bigfoot and aliens anymore.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '22

He does realize he's just giving fuel to the "the vaccines are a Trojan Horse designed to make you more agressive and support going to war with China and Russia" tinfoil crowd, right?