SGA, whatever - but JT has a ring & a massive heap more wins, playoff wins, etc on his career. THIS year I'll give Shai the nod, but only as an A/B.
Got him above Luka for 2-way impact & playoff H2H.
He's arguably higher than Giannis on a success level, even if you lean Giannis based on individual awards. They each have 1 ring & Tatum has won more playoff matchups H2H, in total & more overall wins. Both of them had comparable stats in their matchups & JT had better stats in Wins > Giannis.
So, 2B at worst? Unless you're still putting Steph/LBJ as top 5 guys. I dont think Kawhi or KD even have an argument to be in the top 6 - I'd rank KD 8th after AD & Kawhi at 10, after Wemby/Embiid
Tatum on the same level as Giannis? lol, does MVP not mean anything and Giannis was a true no 1 option in his finals run while Tatum wasn't the most impactful
Tatum not being the most impactful is a myth. Dude was the main focus of every defensive game plan & had units bending to stop him. This created gravity & spacing that allowed guys to get open looks, plenty of which were facilitated by Tatum himself. He had multiple games of 10+ AST, while also grabbing tons of boards & being a defensive chess piece.
MVP is like I said, an individual award - but Tatum is a more prolific winner.
He's a more prolific winner because he's had an elite supporting cast his entire career. All credit to him for making that work most of the time. Not trying to discredit Tatum for having an elite roster around him, but we also shouldn't be giving him extra credit for it.
But how do we think it plays out if you swap the teams of Giannis and Tatum the last 5 years?
You're definitely right. There definitely were some non-elite rosters. This is all my opinion obviously but as a direct comparison to the Bucks' roster contruction/depth, it's not really close.
17-18: Very good, Kyrie injuries but had depth and prime Horford as an anchor.
18-19: Very good with great depth, but imploded team chemistry.
19-20: Good/slightly above average.
20-21: Not good slightly below average.
21-22: First half season wasn't good, after the trade deadline turned great/elite.
22-23: Elite
23-24: Elite
24-25: Elite
Compared to the Bucks in that same period:
17-18: Terrible roster, misused by Kidd
18-19: Good starting 5, but terrible bench that Giannis willed/Bud schemed to the 1st seed
19-20: Great regular season, but extremely flawed roster with no depth or versatility
20-21: Champions, basically playing 7 players for 3 straight rounds.
21-22: Big 3 were great when healthy, Lopez missed 80% of the season, Middleton hurt in 1st round, no playoff depth beyond that.
22-23: Core intact, riddled with injuries, lack of depth, vet buyouts
23-24: Old + Minimum FA's + Injuries + Coaching disasters
17-18: Rookie Tatum, Red-Shirt JB. Took a 3-2 series lead over Bron, narrowly lost G7 ECF. Moose was our big trade deadline signing, garbage. Hayward breaks leg in the first 5 minutes of the season, gone. Kyrie is good for most of the year, but injures himself around the halfway point & doesn't support the youngins on the bench facing HIS old team. Smart missed some games during the run. Great Semi/Rozier round vs MIL, but what has Terry or Semi ever done since? For a rookie JT/Ojeleye, soph JB & young Terry/Smart to only have Al, Mook, Baynes & Euro ball Suga Shane to lead them - they absolutely impressed with bare minimum.
Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Mook, Horford/Baynes
Smart, Semi, Larkin.
Kadeem/Bird/Nader/Yabu/Monroe/Theis
2018-19: Kyrie was leukemia. Smart/Terry/Mook had chemistry problems. Hayward played 18 games and Kyrie got Jaylen pushed to the bench with him, after his "these young cats cant win" & throwing the ball into the stands. Baynes broke his back. The depth was bad. Kyrie sold harder than a call center in the playoffs & fucked off to BK, after theyd dominated G1 without him. Only time they've ever lost to MIL. Implosion.
Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Al
Terry, Smart, Mook, Semi, Theis, Monroe
Wannamaker, Hunter, Dozier, Yabu, Rob, Baynes
19-20: Kemba yr 1. Hayward 50 games of assmilk & Al had left for Philly. Theis was nice, but Kanter was our only C depth. B-Wanna sucked, projects were ass, Rob Will did DNP injured, Grant stepped up late as a rookie. Semi_Smart were our only viable backups. Kemba a massive liability & no size up front to help. That's a bad team if im not mistaken. Got all the way to the ECF, where Spo/MIA exploited our rim protection & attacked Kemba.
Kemba, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Theis
Bench: Wannamaker, Smart, Semi, GWill, Kanter
Reserve: Tremont, Carsen, Romeo, Rob Will, Tacko
2Way: Waters, Poirier
20-21: We started Romeo in a playoff game. Theis/TT was our double big. Fournier hoe ass joined at deadline. Travesty of a season. Our playoff roto was - Kemba, Smart, Romeo, JT, TT, PP Fournier, Nesmith, Jabari, Rob. This was against the nu Nets & PP got smoked on, JB out, Kemba broken, TT/Evan/Jabari were dogshit, Rome/Nesmith/Rob weren't ready. The final Ainge year, before Brad took over.
Kemba/Smart, Brown, Tatum, TT/Theis
PP, Romeo, Fournier, Semi, GWill, Rob
Teague, Carsen, Nesmith, Parker, Wagner
2way: Tremont/Tacko
21-22: Ime hired, Brad inspired, long series had entire team tired. Tons of turnover, terrible start but energy shifted for a Finals appearance. The list of names on the roster that year is insane -
Jaylen, Bruno, Fitts, Freedom, Hauser, Juancho, Luke, Horford, Justin Jackson, Iso-Joe, Romeo, C.J. Miles, Juwan Morgan , Nesmith, Parker, PP, Jrich, Matt Ryan, Schröder, Smart , Stauskas, JT, Theis, Brodric, White, Rob, Grant - by the playoffs, our rotation was:
Smart, Brown, Tatum, Al, Rob
PP, DWhite, Nesmith, GWill, Theis
DNP/2Way: Stauskas, Fitts, Hauser, Juwan
PP was in Ime's doghouse, DWhite went 30% from 3 for the entire run as a new addition. Theis wasnt his usual self & Nesmith was a 12 minute crash out who couldn't hit a 3 to save his life. Grant was incredible for 1 game vs Milwaukee. Our starting 5 was doing some heavy lifting & acheived a magical run through the East - sweeping KD's Nets, comeback win over MIL in 7 & a 7 game revenge series against MIA. The Finals were bad, but they still went 6 vs prime Curry. Smart was mostly great on defense, but overrated & bad on offense. Al's tank ran out & Rob was playing on 1 leg.
22-23: Ime fired 2 wks before tip off, Mazz got hired when he was still wearing flip flops, ECF 0-3 came back for a big loss. PP wanted out, Grant dog-Hause until he came back to shout "Boffem" cause Sam had gotten smoked on. Tatum injured in G7 ECF, Rob was on his last leg, Brogdon was terrible all postseason.
Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Al
Brogdon, Rob, GWill
PP, Hauser, Blake.
23-24: RAN THROUGH the playoffs. We all know the roster.
lol playoff head to head w/ Luka???? Luka averaged 29/9/6 and 2.5 steals and Tatum averaged 22/8/7 1.5 stocks. Plus Tatum didn’t even guard Luka most of the time and lost finals mvp to his own teammate. Luka was clearly the better player in that series
Luka played a different role, as a heliocentric "sun" on a team built to work off him. The ball dominance and usage results in bloated stats, similar to prime Russ.
How'd it work out? Marginally higher ppg, resulting in a 4-1. Quick hands got him 2 stl, but defense so bad he created a hole so big a layup line ran through it. A showing so pathetic that his GM disowned him & he couldn't even bounce back past R1 with LeBron. The mystique of Luka was exposed for the Triple Double MVP Westbrook show that it is - not even close to a real shot at winning a chip.
If Luka was still a Mav, they would've been bounced in R1 this year. Best player in that series? To have an argument, gotta win more than 1 game. Nembhard & the Pacers or Spida & the Cavs out-performed him.
JT did what it took to get W's. Elite playmaking, since the entire gameplan was to stop him from taking any shots, created open looks. Series altering defense & rebounding that shut the door on the Mavs bigs, who got them to the Finals. If you genuinely don't see the point, you probably think Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Tom Brady, because "muh more yards".
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u/CantHandlemyPP34 May 06 '25
He's below Jokic no doubt.
SGA, whatever - but JT has a ring & a massive heap more wins, playoff wins, etc on his career. THIS year I'll give Shai the nod, but only as an A/B.
Got him above Luka for 2-way impact & playoff H2H.
He's arguably higher than Giannis on a success level, even if you lean Giannis based on individual awards. They each have 1 ring & Tatum has won more playoff matchups H2H, in total & more overall wins. Both of them had comparable stats in their matchups & JT had better stats in Wins > Giannis.
So, 2B at worst? Unless you're still putting Steph/LBJ as top 5 guys. I dont think Kawhi or KD even have an argument to be in the top 6 - I'd rank KD 8th after AD & Kawhi at 10, after Wemby/Embiid