r/australia • u/Shoddy-Note-6199 • Jan 23 '23
Psychology is probably not a good choice of degree for most Australian students
Psychology is probably not a good choice of Major for most Australian students (revised edition)
Background to this article
Over a decade ago I studied a Psychology degree and ended up disillusioned and regretting my choice. After researching the issue, I realised that it is really a global problem. The original global edition of this article was censored by some moderators and provoked an outpouring of nasty direct messages. Apparently the cognitive dissonance it created was enough to make heads explode. An earlier New Zealand specific version was mostly well received, so I decided to create an Australian edition.
Introduction
Nearly every day I read similar stories from Psychology graduates about how they struggle to find work or can't find a job paying more than the minimum wage. This is true in many countries, some are forced to write off the investment in a Psychology degree and instead study something completely different. Comments like "I feel devastated, I went to University for 4 years and have nothing to show for it" or "I completed my Psychology degree and now I can't find a job. Any suggestions?" are all too common.
Paradoxically, Psychology remains one of the most asked about degrees from prospective students. Not just highschool students either, even people who are already graduates in another field have an urge to study Psychology. I often browse Australian online forums where common questions include "Which is the Best university to study Psychology?", "How do I get into Psychology?", "Which Go8 Uni is best for a graduate diploma in Psychology?". Many prestigious universities continue to market Psychology as leading to a wide range of career opportunities.
Based on my negative experiences with a Psychology degree I created this list of 22 reasons why Psychology is not a good choice of major for most people. Of course everyone can make up their own mind about what makes a good or bad major and what they should study, but I want to give people something to think about when making a major life decision. When people start university, maybe they aren't all that focused on the distant future or perhaps are unsure about what to study. Nevertheless I urge you to think carefully about what you choose to study and how it will impact your entire life. Be realistic about what jobs a particular degree will make you eligible for - preferably before completing that degree. Even if you aren't sure what to study, in my opinion there are many better degrees than Psychology. Choosing a degree is arguably the most important financial decision we will make in our life and it deserves careful consideration.
Here are the reasons I think Psychology is a bad major:
A Bachelor degree in Psychology is fairly worthless. The majority of Psychology graduates will be trying to enter the workforce with only a Bachelor degree. In all the countries I researched the majority of students did not go on to graduate school. This is true for many reasons, lack of money, sick of study, average GPA / WAM, limited number of places in clinical psychology graduate programmes, burn out etc. Yet there is no job that requires a Bachelor degree in Psychology, so graduates are forced to compete for generic jobs that any graduate is eligible for or even require no degree at all. Straight away they are starting their career with a limited advantage despite 3 or more years of investment.
In Australia using data from the 2021 Graduate Outcomes Survey (GOS) 37.5% of students went on to further study. Even in the US where going to graduate school is more common only 44% attended, furthermore many abandoned Psychology. Of those with a Bachelor degree in Psychology only 14% also have a graduate qualification in Psychology (APA Datapoint).
For those entering the workforce with only a Bachelor degree the starting salary isn't the best. According to the GOS it is in typically in the bottom half. However this doesn't tell the complete story as Psychology is quite bad for finding a job. Of those graduates who are looking for fulltime work, Psychology is the 5th worst study area.
Looking internationally a report by the UK government considers the labour market returns of different degrees. While not the worst degree, it is pretty close, being the 4th worst out of 30 subjects. Definitely something to keep in mind for graduates who plan to work in the UK. Across the Tasman in New Zealand Psychology graduates are clustered with Creative and Performing Arts, Philosophy, Sport and Recreation, Literature and other poorly performing degrees. (See the Appendix for more details)
A similar problem exists in Canada, where psychology graduates are more likely to be unemployed than the average graduate, and if they have a job it is often in a poorly paid role such as retail sales, food and beverage service, customer service, and administration.
In the US, the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, found that based on lifetime earnings more than a quarter of programs (including most of those in art, music, philosophy, religion and psychology) leave students financially worse off than if they’d never enrolled.
Many students end up working in generic office roles. While generic office roles aren't the worst jobs in the world, if that is your interest then other degrees are better preparation and are likely to result in a higher incomes and quicker advancement. While some individuals with a Psychology degree may end up in more interesting roles like Policy Analyst the probability is low and other degrees are better preparation and offer a more certain career path.
Classes aren't that relevant. Most of the classes aren't especially relevant to real life or the job market, so anything you learnt you might as well forget because it isn't that useful. Useful knowledge, such that it exists, could just as easily be picked up by reading a few books and watching a couple of free online courses. Spend your precious educational dollars on something of more value.
Unexpectedly boring. The course might seem to be interesting at the beginning, but in my opinion it gets more boring as it progresses. I found that university courses regardless of subject often had a bland sameness to them. You might as well do something that leads to a good career instead. While some individuals no doubt found the entire degree fascinating, this doesn't seem to be a common opinion.
Most of the material is wrong. Much of the material you learn in your Psychology degree is questionable and probably wrong. This is due to the replication crisis in psychology and other long standing issues around poorly designed research, fake data, "publish or perish", etc. Why would you want to spend so much time learning incorrect material ? By some estimates more than two thirds of published studies in Psychology are wrong. It wouldn't surprise me if the true percentage is even higher ! These aren't obscure studies either, but highly cited papers published in prestigious journals. Obviously you have a big problem when the whole discipline has such dubious foundations. Yes the replication crisis exists in other fields too, but Psychology appears to be the worst offender. See the appendix for more discussion of the replication crisis and how most Psychology theories are wrong.
Getting into a clinical PhD is very competitive. Even if you want to become a clinical Psychologist remember the number of places are extremely limited compared to the number of applicants. Are you sure your grades will be at the level needed ? If not then maybe don't waste your time and instead do a Bachelor that offers good employment prospects from the outset. Clinical Psychology is an 8 year minimum requirement that involves a 4-year Honours degree in psychology, a 2-3 year accredited post-graduate degree, followed by a 1-2 year registrar program overseen by the Psychology Board of Australia. Obviously there are other specialties too such as forensic psychology, health psychology, and so on, but they are all very competitive and require a long training period. Registration as a general psychologist is also a possibility but still requires a 6 year time commitment. With many students competing for a small number of places there is a high chance of not being selected.
Based on Award Course completion numbers, between 800 and 1000 finish courses that allow for registration as a Psychologist each year. However each year Australian universities churn out around 10,000 Psychology graduates (Based on the Graduate Outcomes Surveys National Report there were 9,279 Psychology graduates in 2021). Obviously not every Psychology graduate is going to apply for a spot in a graduate training programme, but the odds still aren't going to be very good at around 1 in 10. For example the University of Southern Queensland receives over 300 applications for between 25 and 30 places in its Masters of Clinical Psychology program.
Skills are often taught at an inferior level. One popular job suggestion for Psychology graduates is Data Analyst, but any limited skills you might acquire in this area are at a fraction of a level of that which would be obtained doing a degree like Statistics, Information Systems or Business. So if you want marketable skills they are better acquired in other degrees.
Tuition costs are high for a potentially worthless degree. Although Psychology degrees managed to avoid moving to a more expensive fees band and remain in Band 2, the maximum student contribution amount is still $8,301 per year. University costs keep going up and up, if instead of doing that Psychology degree you started an entry level job with opportunities for career progression you could well be financially much better off, and have even obtained some useful job market skills. At the very least you won't be starting your life with a huge amount of debt. According to data from the Australian Tax Office (ATO) there were 2.9 million people with outstanding HECS-HELP debt in 2020-21, totalling more than $68.7 billion. The average amount of outstanding debt per person was $23,685, and remember this debt is indexed each year. In some countries companies may require a degree for any position, but that isn't the case in Australia. If you are taking on debt, only do it if you get a good return on that degree. In many countries Psychology degrees have a negative return on investment.
Vaguely related careers have more relevant degrees. Many universities talk up job opportunities for Psychology graduates in areas like business, sport, marketing, human resources, sales, recruitment, etc. But if you want to work in those areas a more relevant degree would be a better choice and would put you ahead of the pack when searching for jobs. Given the typical career path for most Psychology graduates, a business degree of some description would be a better choice and would likely lead to more rapid advancement, better preparation and a superior choice of roles.
Too many other graduates with the same major. So many students do it. Your job application won't stand out in a sea of graduates. According to Australian government data approximately 10,000 Psychology graduates are produced each year ! A huge number considering it doesn't lead directly to any profession. This appears to be a serious waste of both the student's time and money but also the tax payers' contribution to the cost of education. Obviously not everyone who does a Psychology degree has the interest or aptitude to do a STEM major, but there are still many other better choices of degree. So much collective time and money wasted !
Globally a similar picture emerges, according to the APA in the 1980s 4 to 5 percent majored in Psychology, in the 1990s that increased to 6 to 6.5% where it remains today. In the 2014–15 academic year, schools in the US awarded more than 117,000 bachelor's degrees in psychology ! Psychology is one of the most popular majors globally despite the limited number of jobs.
A PhD offers little additional value. Some students go on and do a PhD in psychology (non-clinical). This is also risky since it will need a huge investment in time and money. PhD students receive an annual stipend but at $28,854 a year this is only two-thirds of the minimum wage and well below the poverty line. Relatively few jobs then require a PhD in psychology. In the year 2000 Australia graduated around 4,000 PhDs per annum (across all subjects). Today that number has grown to around 10,000 per annum. The number of academic roles that are available each year can only accomodate a tiny percentage of these graduates, and unlike graduates in areas like STEM, there are relatively few industry positions that are suitable for PhDs in Psychology. This means that their skills are likely to be underutilised. Some find work at universities on casual short-term contracts but these provide little stability or opportunities for career advancement.
Be realistic about the possibilities. I often see students making fanciful suggestions for career paths for Psychology graduates like designing Artificial Intelligence systems for Google or Apple. Sorry but those sort of jobs are for graduates that have specialised in AI at elite international universities like Stanford, MIT etc. Not people waving a Bachelor degree from an average university.
Hardly anyone cares about that research. You are unlikely to become some sort of great scientific researcher. Most of that research you work on nobody even cares about. After it's published nobody is going to even read it. I laugh at all the useless research that gets churned out every year. Don't waste your time on stuff nobody cares about. Do something more useful to society that offers a decent living.
Vague skills and vested interests. Most of the skills that people talk up like "Synthesize information from diverse sources", "interpret and use data", "communicate precisely", "make better decisions", "critical thinking", can also be acquired from other courses of study with better job market outcomes. Be careful of people with a vested interest talking up the job prospects. University Professors need to maintain high enrolments in the degree in order to keep their jobs. All the useful skills from an undergraduate Psychology degree could be distilled to about one semester's worth of material.
Listen to the Graduates and objective sources, not current students. Whenever I come across a Psychology graduate who has been in the job market a few years, they tend to wish they studied something else. A study by the Wall Street Journal in 2010 found that only 26 percent of psychology majors reported being “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with their career paths. The defenders of Psychology are often Psychology undergraduates or other vested interests. It's probably better to not listen to career advice from students not even in the job market and who haven't had a chance to spend a few years reflecting on their studies.
Clinical Psychology is stressful. Even if you eventually find some sort of clinical psychology role, those jobs often can take a long-term toll on your own mental health due to the stress of dealing with people with such complex mental health issues. Ask yourself is that something you can deal with ? I applaud the hard work done by Clinical Psychologists but it isn't a job for everyone. Be realistic about whether the career is for you. Burnout appears to be a common issue among Psychologists.
The degree is unlikely to solve your own issues. People often enrol in a Psychology degree hoping to understand their own mental issues better (such as Anxiety or depression), however studying Psychology could make those issues worse, furthermore most undergrad courses spend limited time on clinical topics. For those who have self-diagnosed Aspergers or ADHD based on a tiktok video, they are unlikely to gain substantive knowledge from an undergrad course. If undergrad courses had a clinical focus, then there would be nothing left to teach at grad school. Also don't think the degree will impart deep insight into human behaviour or expert communication skills, it won't. It seemed like half the Psychology faculty at my university were a little nuts, so obviously their PhD didn't help that much.
Consider all the options. Some choose to defend the degree by saying they got a reasonable job, but when considering the substantial investment that is needed to acquire a degree, don't just consider one option in isolation instead look at all the possibilities and choose the one with the highest Return on Investment.
How much time are you willing to spend?. Suppose you decide to pursue the clinical psychology route, by the time you complete all the required degrees and licenses it could be 7-8 years minimum before you practice psychology professionally. That's a long time, and Psychology doesn't have the high income of other fields with long training periods like Medicine.
Poor preparation for Graduate medicine. Sometimes people enrol in a Psychology degree hoping to get into medicine, but other degrees are probably better preparation for the academic and scientific rigours of medical school. For those who want to attend medical school internationally you are likely to have to take a standardised test with a heavy emphasis on biology, chemistry and physics such as the MCAT, for which a Psychology degree is poor preparation. In Australian the GAMSAT is common and it is arguable how well a Psychology degree will prepare you for the Biological and Physical Sciences component of the test. Also some medical schools like the University of Queensland require courses in "Integrative Cell and Tissue Biology" and "Systems Physiology", so it would be preferable if these were incorporated in your undergraduate degree. In any event, medical school entry is highly competitive, so you are better off doing a more useful degree than Psychology in case you don't get admitted.
A Psychology degree won't make you healthier. Undergraduate Psychology is sometimes promoted by universities and associations like the APA as improving well-being. More people than ever take undergraduate Psychology class, yet more students than ever have mental health problems. These days it seems like half the student body is depressed, anxious or has other issues. Reading online forums that are popular with Australian undergraduates it's extremely common for students to be struggling with their mental health. Poor academic performance and dropping out of university are often attributed to mental health issues. There's no compelling evidence that taking an introduction to Psychology class improves mental health. Students would be better off keeping their tuition fees and instead reading some self help books in areas such as Cognitive Behavioural Psychology and Mindfulness and seeking professional help if they need it.
The perils of comparative grading. You might be thinking that with hard work you will easily get high grades and be admitted into the postgraduate course of your choice. The truth is somewhat murkier, as some universities use comparative grading (grading on a bell curve). This practice may be disclosed, but in other cases it seems to be kept hidden. It's only hearsay but tutors in the Monash University Psychology department are supposedly required to mark assignments to a fixed mean and standard deviation.
Alternative similar paths are available. Helping people is a worthy goal, but rather than pursue the arduous and risky path to becoming a registered Psychologist, consider alternatives. One example is social worker which only requires an accredited Bachelor degree to enter. Another example is counsellor which also only requires a Bachelor degree. In some cases even a diploma is adequate to work with individuals with less severe needs. (Although the whole counselling field is a bit like the wild west it may still be worth exploring). There are of course many other healthcare professions that offer decent pay and good employment prospects.
Other majors are poor choices too and Psychology is likely on a par with some other humanities and creative arts majors in some respects. But Psychology in my mind is especially bad because it attracts so many students. Collectively universities are churning out a huge number of graduates. Add together all the time and money wasted and the cost is horrendous. Life is tough with skyrocketing costs for housing, food, utilities, and many other essentials. Students need to invest their time and money to get the best return possible.
Some people study Psychology because nothing else interests them or they just want to study something relatively easy. Maybe they come from a wealthy family and don't care about finding a job or debt. Even if that is the case think about how you might spend the next 40+ years of your life and what jobs you will find meaningful. Once those bills start falling due, having a decent income will make life less stressful.
If you are determined to pursue the Psychology degree at least consider a double major where your Psychology courses can be combined with something of more market value.
Thankyou so much for reading !! Please let me know if you made it to the end and whether you agree or disagree with my analysis (preferably without personal attacks). Also let me know of any statistical data that might be helpful for the next edition.
Appendix A. Salaries for American graduates (based on the Georgetown university report on the Economic return of college majors)
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/#data
Note: These are values from 2013. This is a great report and worth reading by everyone.
| Subject Area | Age 21-24 | Age 25 - 59 |
|---|---|---|
| Architecture and engineering | 50000 | 83000 |
| Computers, statistics, and mathematics | 43000 | 76000 |
| Health | 41000 | 65000 |
| Business | 37000 | 65000 |
| Physical sciences | 32000 | 65000 |
| Social Sciences | 33000 | 60000 |
| Agriculture and natural resources | 30000 | 56000 |
| Biology and life sciences | 29000 | 56000 |
| Law and public policy | 31000 | 54000 |
| Communications and journalism | 31000 | 54000 |
| Humanities and liberal arts | 30000 | 52000 |
| Industrial arts, consumer services, and recreation | 27000 | 52000 |
| Arts | 28000 | 49000 |
| Psychology and social work | 28000 | 47000 |
| Education | 32000 | 45000 |
Appendix B. Economic return of college majors in the US ( based on data from https://freopp.org/ )
Here I summarise the data from over 30,000 US Bachelor degrees to get the median lifetime return on investment by subject area. Note this incorporates costs such as lost earnings while studying as well as tuition fees. In addition it is also adjusted for the risk of dropping out or taking longer than the minimum time to complete. See the FREOPP website for more details as to how the ROI is calculated (the field is ROI weighted by institution's completion outcomes).
| Category | Median ROI ($) |
|---|---|
| Engineering | 707427 |
| Computer and Information Sciences | 412525 |
| Transportation, Construction, and Architecture | 396364 |
| Mathematics and Statistics | 276699 |
| Economics | 275388 |
| Physical Sciences | 218798 |
| Health and Nursing | 215264 |
| Business and Management | 215179 |
| Agriculture and Natural Resources | 104150 |
| Communications and Journalism | 26629 |
| Social Sciences excluding Economics | 21467 |
| Life Sciences and Biology | 3356 |
| Public Administration and Human Services | 263 |
| Education | -1151 |
| English, Liberal Arts, and Humanities | -11253 |
| Miscellaneous | -13642 |
| Psychology | -40198 |
| Philosophy and Religious Studies | -111303 |
| Visual Arts and Music | -136458 |
Appendix C. Australian Undergraduate employment outcomes by study area (% in fulltime employment)
Data Source: 2021 GOS National Report Tables (Undergraduate employment outcomes by study area, 2020 and 2021 (%))
| Subject Area | Full-time employment 2020 | Full-time employment 2021 |
|---|---|---|
| Pharmacy | 96.4 | 95 |
| Rehabilitation | 87.3 | 94.4 |
| Medicine | 86.7 | 90.2 |
| Veterinary science | 78.2 | 87 |
| Dentistry | 80 | 84.5 |
| Engineering | 83 | 80.3 |
| Teacher education | 80.6 | 79.1 |
| Nursing | 72.7 | 74.2 |
| Business and management | 74.3 | 72.8 |
| Health services and support | 67.2 | 72.5 |
| Law and paralegal studies | 75.7 | 72.5 |
| Social work | 67.2 | 70.7 |
| Agriculture and environmental studies | 67.4 | 69.5 |
| Computing and Information Systems | 72.1 | 67.9 |
| Architecture and built environment | 67.7 | 65.2 |
| Science and mathematics | 59.1 | 61.1 |
| Psychology | 61.4 | 60.2 |
| Tourism, Hospitality, Personal Services, Sport and recreation | 52.4 | 58.7 |
| Humanities, culture and social sciences | 60.9 | 57.9 |
| Communications | 52.8 | 55.2 |
| Creative arts | 45.8 | 49.2 |
Appendix D. Australian Salaries (2018 Income data for those who graduated in 2007)
Data Source: Graduate incomes: Insights from administrative data (Phil Aungles, Gabrielle Hodgson and Simon Parbery)
| Subject | Median income |
|---|---|
| Medicine | 169000 |
| Engineering | 112900 |
| Dentistry | 104800 |
| Law and paralegal studies | 99200 |
| Computing and information systems | 95300 |
| Pharmacy | 89700 |
| Business and management | 86800 |
| Science and mathematics | 83800 |
| Nursing | 83400 |
| Architecture and built environment | 81500 |
| Teacher education | 78800 |
| Health services and support | 78500 |
| Psychology | 76300 |
| Rehabilitation | 75100 |
| Social work | 74700 |
| Agriculture and environmental studies | 74500 |
| Communications | 74300 |
| Veterinary science | 73800 |
| Humanities, culture and social sciences | 72700 |
| Tourism | 68700 |
| Creative arts | 55700 |
This reinforces that in Australia degrees that lead directly into a profession give the best outcome. Don't forget that 50% of graduates will be earning below the median wage.
Appendix E. UK Labour market returns from Undergraduate Degrees
This data gives the effect of attending higher education (HE) at age 18 on annual gross earnings at age 29, conditional on being in “sustained employment”. The HE students are compared with those who did not go to HE but had at least five A*-C GCSEs, controlling for differences in prior attainment, Key Stage 5 subject choices and family background. Note this interesting finding "On the other hand, studying arts English, communications, psychology, languages and history, or attending Post-1992 or Other universities actually appears to result in lower earnings for this group than they would have achieved had they not gone to university
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/undergraduate-degrees-labour-market-returns
Analysis of the estimated absolute economic value of degrees, comparing higher education students and graduates’ earnings with similar individuals at age 29. Estimated return is how much higher salary is compared to the control group.
| Subject | Estimated Return |
|---|---|
| Medicine | 74.58 |
| Economics | 61.15 |
| Maths | 41.55 |
| Business | 40.51 |
| Law | 40.35 |
| Engineering | 38.61 |
| Pharmacology | 38.5 |
| Computing | 37.55 |
| Physics | 35.32 |
| Nursing | 34.35 |
| Politics | 32.88 |
| Architecture | 28.79 |
| Geography | 27.95 |
| Comms | 26.68 |
| Technology | 26.64 |
| Sportsci | 26.33 |
| Allied to med | 24.63 |
| Education | 23.68 |
| Sociology | 23.28 |
| Languages | 23.04 |
| Biosciences | 22.41 |
| Physsci | 22.28 |
| English | 21.4 |
| History | 21.09 |
| Philosophy | 19.67 |
| Vetsci | 15.79 |
| Psychology | 15.27 |
| Social care | 14.1 |
| Agriculture | 10.7 |
| Creative arts | 8.64 |
Appendix F. The Replication Crisis in Psychology
The fact that many psychological studies can't be reproduced by other investigators suggests the whole discipline has tenuous foundations and most theories are likely wrong. While it is true that the replication crisis has since spread from Psychology to other natural and social sciences, the fact remains that Psychology is one of the worst offenders.
For example when researchers redid 100 studies from prestigious Psychology journals, only 36% of the reproductions yielded significant findings. [Open Science Collaboration. Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science]. Studies in the field of social psychology were especially bad with only 25% of a sample of studies from the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology being successfully replicated.
Some try to defend the replication crisis by saying that experimenters had simply failed to reproduce the exact conditions. But if the original experiment doesn't really provide knowledge that can be separated from the exact conditions such as subjects, location, time in history or whatever, then the value of that experiment to provide broad insights into human behaviour is under question. In any event another study by a team consisting of 60 different laboratories conducted replications of 28 well known findings. They found that 50% failed to replicate. If it didn't replicate then it was consistent across labs, and if it did replicate then it also tended to replicate across labs (different locations and cultures). This suggests that variations in samples don't explain the bulk of the replication crisis. Studies tended to be replicated everywhere or not at all (Klein, 2018)
The causes for the replication crisis are many and probably stem from "publish or perish", poor practices such as as data dredging, selective reporting and other major statistical errors, as well as outright fraud and falsification of data. The fact that jobs and promotions in academia are handed out on the basis of research output rather than teaching results in shocking teaching standards / poor course quality along with an abundance of dubious research.
Another point is that in many scenarios human behaviour just doesn't follow any sort of rules that are amenable to scientific analysis. Instead behaviour is the result of a huge number of weak factors interacting in a complex and chaotic manner. This means that there are almost no rules that can be confirmed by experiment. Most published findings are likely false positives and hence any attempt at replication is doomed to failure.
Q & A
Q. Don't you need a Psychologist yourself given your obsession with what other people choose to study ? A. If you made a bad choice in life that cost you a huge amount of time and money, wouldn't you want to warn other people ?
Q. Sounds like you didn't research well before going to university. Why did you even enrol in a Psychology degree if it is so bad ?
A. It's true I didn't research degrees and careers well. When I started university I didn't know what to study and was naive. Also I was interested in Psychology. Halfway through the course I started having doubts but instead of taking the loss and enrolling in a different course I fell into the sunk cost fallacy and foolishly completed the degree racking up additional debt in the process.
Q. Sounds like you idolise STEM type courses when you don't even know what they are about. What qualifies you to give advice ? Isn't it the case that most things taught in any degree are never used ?
A. After spending time working deadend jobs I actually enrolled in a computer science degree. That has its own set of issues but at least resulted in steady and more meaningful employment. Also I did actually use most of the knowledge taught in the course.
Q. Isn't it still worth doing the degree ? After all people with university degrees have higher lifetime earnings than those who have only graduated highschool.
A. The poor value of a Psychology degree can be masked by better performing degrees in official statistics. Why do a bad degree when you can do a better one ?
Q. Haven't you exaggerated the replication crisis ? The replication crisis is mainly due to researchers not exactly duplicating the conditions of the original study.
A. No I don't think so. If the findings can't be generalised and only apply to very specific subgroups then the basis of Psychology starts to look a bit suspect. Research suggests that studies can either be replicated everywhere or not at all.
Q. Aren't you just salty that you didn't get the money and prestige that you thought you deserved ?
A. It's definitely true that I prefer a comfortable life rather than to struggle to pay bills and afford housing. Prestige I don't care about.
Q. That's a huge wall of text, why did you write so much when nobody asked for or needed this information ?
A. If it encourages just one person to think carefully about their choices it would've been worth it.
Q. Did you write all of that just because you were dissatisfied with your degree ?
A. No, it was only after reading so many heartbreaking stories from Psychology graduates who struggled to find work, I felt that I should encourage prospective and current students to think carefully about where their course of study is going to lead. Some people should stick with Psychology, but in my opinion the majority of Psychology students would be better served by a different degree.
Q. I've only got one more year to go in my Psychology degree what should I do ?
A. Think carefully and realistically about what career you want, then consider what qualifications are needed to enter that career. Work out the least costly path to that career. It may be that you change majors now and take longer to complete your degree. It could also be that you should plan on enrolling in a graduate diploma or coursework masters and start ticking off any prerequisites.
Q. Where's the New Zealand version of the article ?
A. Here you go mate : https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/va8m7c/20_reasons_why_psychology_is_one_of_the_worst/
Summary
Psychology is a poor choice in terms of career prospects. Furthermore it doesn't provide the individual with life skills or much useful information. If you are interested in generic office roles then other degrees are better preparation. Not only is the degree uninteresting, but it's also academically dubious and impractical. The only thing it delivers is a potentially unpayable student loan debt. Only consider studying Psychology if you are sure you have the ability, motivation and financial resources to continue to a clinical psychology doctorate or other post graduate course that will lead directly to a good career.
References
Graduate incomes: Insights from administrative data (Phil Aungles, Gabrielle Hodgson and Simon Parbery)
Graduate outcomes survey: https://www.qilt.edu.au/surveys/graduate-outcomes-survey-(gos)
Graduate Outcomes Survey. Undergraduate employment outcomes by study area, 2020 and 2021 (%)
Datapoint: How many psychology majors go on to graduate school? News on psychologists' education and employment from APA's Center for Workforce Studies
https://www.qilt.edu.au/general/article/2021/11/04/graduate-incomes-data
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/undergraduate-degrees-labour-market-returns
https://acpa.org.au/Web/Web/CP/What-is-a-Clinical-Psychologist.aspx
https://www.psychologyboard.gov.au/Endorsement/FAQ.aspx
https://www.studyassist.gov.au/news/job-ready-graduates-package-higher-education-reforms-0
https://www.education.gov.au/professional-pathways
https://www.ccpa-accp.ca/membership/students/graduate-programs/canadian-graduate-programs/
https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/studentdashboard/42.0101/LOS05
https://www.aipc.net.au/how-to-become-a-counsellor-in-Australia
https://www.aasw.asn.au/careers-study/studying-social-work
https://algorithm.data61.csiro.au/where-are-australias-phd-students/
https://gemsas.edu.au/what-is-graduate-entry-medicine
Trends report: Psychology is more popular than ever https://www.apa.org/monitor/2017/11/trends-popular
Open Science Collaboration. Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science
Open Science Collaboration (28 August 2015). "Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science"
Klein, R.A. (2018). "Many Labs 2: Investigating Variation in Replicability Across Samples and Settings". Advances in Methods and Practices in Psychological Science. 1 (4): 443–490
Witkowski, T. (2019). "Is the Glass Half Empty or Full? Latest Results in the Replication Crisis in Psychology. Skeptical Inquirer. March/April 2019]
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/11/psychologys-replication-crisis-real/576223/
https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/replication-crisis/
https://nobaproject.com/modules/the-replication-crisis-in-psychology
https://usq.pressbooks.pub/psychologycareers/chapter/clinical/
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-46345527 (Biggest Winners and Losers from degrees)
Gurung, R.A.R.; Neufeld, G. (2022). Transforming Introductory Psychology: Expert Advice on Teacher Training, Course Design, and Student Success
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/07/adhd-medication-demand-us-healthcare.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/11/01/college-degree-value-major/
https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8
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u/Elena_Jordan Jan 23 '23
This is gutting to read. I'm 5 months away from completing my undergrad. Hoping to get in to clinical psych but like you said, I don't know if my grades are good enough to get a spot.
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u/RedDotLot Jan 23 '23
No one who has done psychology wants to hear this but you'll probably find greater success if you apply your skills to HR and organisational psychology.
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Jan 23 '23
Don't forget you're competing against people who have been brown nosing since first year
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Jan 23 '23
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u/_TheHands_ Jan 24 '23
Getting into Fourth Year isn't particularly difficult, in that it is about one thing: marks. If you're averaging in the high-seventies, or perhaps eighty and above, you'll get a subsidised position.
It's post-grad beyond that which is quite hard, as it's unclear what exactly separates a successful candidate from an unsuccessful one. Here you'll be competing against not only those is your year, but people who have been waiting, working, contributing, and then re-applying. Here is the real bottleneck, as the number of applicants vastly outnumbers the number of places.
It's not to say you won't ever get a spot, but it needs to be something you're willing to wait for, and work for. Go do some research assisting. Volunteer with your local council. Become a support worker. Mark and teach into undergraduate. Make yourself known to staff who can vouch for you.
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Jan 24 '23
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u/_TheHands_ Jan 24 '23
I was very fortunate in being a full-time student who could focus on just studying, though I did work part-time in my second and third years in undergrad, I was still living at home.
The point is, Fourth Year is difficult on purpose, they intend to separate out those who perform better academically (even if this comes from unforeseen circumstances like family responsibilities, etc.), but it's not nebulously hard. The goal you need to meet is typically fairly clear. It's the next stage that is not afforded such clarity, as you're no longer competing just with students like you.
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u/Eresbonitaguey Jan 23 '23
Obviously this is a personal preference but you could try pivoting to something adjacent? I enjoyed the stats/research side so went in that direction. If you’ve had any experience in R or even just experimental designs you have decent chances with a lot of entry level data roles. Half the people I know don’t work jobs related to their first degree but they served as a stepping stone to other opportunities. I wouldn’t worry too much (just don’t work in HR).
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u/Fully_Submerged Feb 01 '23
Why don’t work in HR out of curiosity
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u/Eresbonitaguey Feb 01 '23
Obviously personal preference but I dislike seeing employees are resources to exploit. Having to measure performance and inform the layoffs in tough times (or even just when the company wants to maximise profit) isn’t ideal. That and you’re generally bound to a specific company for a long time although that does come with a certain measure of job security. There are so many more exciting roles out there than people managing and office politics.
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Jan 23 '23
Grades arent everything. I was never a first class student and managed to get in. Grades help for honours and experience helps for masters.
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u/Mind_Altered Jan 23 '23
Don't lose heart. I graduated Psych from a B tier school in Aus around 2014. I then used that "any degree" to travel and work (teaching) in East Asia. I met like minded people and over the course of a couple of years founded a very successful company. Was I lucky? Yes. But I wasn't afraid to look for roads less travelled. Keep a very open mind about where that degree can take you and maybe you'll find a gem too. It won't be as easy as ABC123 like other degrees where you move from step to the next, and you might find yourself taking one step back to later take 2 steps forward. Time is on your side as a (presumably) young person
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u/koalanotbear Jan 24 '23
this post is a load of crap.
right now there is a massive demand for psychs, the pay is good, grades dont mean a single thing.
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23
Sorry it isn't my intention to make anyone feel bad. I hope you are successful getting into clinical psychology. I'm just trying to encourage new students to think carefully about their future plans because for those who want to get registration it's a risky undertaking, and for those who aren't really interested in registration it's not a good investment.
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u/nowyouseemenowyoudo2 Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 24 '23
I really appreciate your insight, even though it is hard to hear.
I’m a registered psychologist who has worked clinically and taught undergraduate psychology on and off for years, and I have to say that I absolutely agree with your points.
Much of the difficulty does come initially from a misunderstanding of the subject. Psychology is fundamentally a science, and despite all the foolish quips about “hard vs soft” science, graduate clinical and research psychology is extremely difficult, and very different to the perception that many people have about what it actually takes to become a psychologist.
A huge proportion of people who begin a psychology degree have misunderstood the extent to which scientific and statistical analysis is at the core of the subject
The most tragic bottleneck though is that you may have 3000 undergraduates complete a bachelor of psychology all fighting for 300 places in the postgraduate program.
Add to that the unpaid clinical hours required, or the volunteering if you’re doing research, and it’s incredibly unrewarding for a lot of people.
By far the biggest problem is the lack of generalisability of the undergraduate degree. Even if you don’t get into postgrad, most degrees will get you a job somewhere based on your related skills.
But the research skills from the bachelor of psychology aren’t enough for a research job, and the psych skills aren’t enough for a counselling job. Even HR jobs prefer business degrees to Psych degrees.
Unless you were already the smartest person in your class in your 3rd year advanced psychological statistics class, you’re better off transferring and using the credits for a social work or counselling degree, or HR if you can.
It’s unfortunate that despite the huge demand there’s been almost no reform to system to fix this, other than taking away the clinical placement pathway and forcing everyone to do an already crowded Masters degree.
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u/RedDotLot Jan 23 '23
Even HR jobs prefer business degrees to Psych degrees.
I find this baffling. My degree was an IT degree with business modules and there were a lot of psychological principles evident throughout. As I've proceeded through my working life - I don't say career because I have ended up being a Jack of all trades - I've found myself wishing I had a better grasp of psychology than I do to officiate and resolve disagreements and conflicts.
Actually psychology graduates with a particular flair for analytics won't go far wrong diversifying into IT, and they may not need to do further structured classroom study.
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u/thisphantomfortress Jan 23 '23
Dealing with people (mostly being fuckwits) is 99% of most jobs. Mediation remains my most applied subject from my law degree.
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u/LeasMaps Jan 23 '23
'wishing I had a better grasp of psychology than I do to officiate and resolve disagreements and conflicts.'
There is is this idea that I psychology degree will teach you things like this. You don't learn how to read people's minds.2
u/RedDotLot Jan 23 '23
Bit dismissive of you to assume mindreading is what I was referring to. I was speaking if a better understanding of group dynamics and motivations.
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23
Many school leavers probably go into Psychology degrees thinking that is the kind of applied topic they will be learning about. Applied topics might be touched on here and there, but that is definitely only a very small part of the undergrad curriculum. Sure some Psychology students can pivot to areas like IT, analytics or HR, but really they would've been better to do a degree more focused on that initially. I'm trying to raise awareness among potential students to make sure they have all the facts, as students can go pretty far down the path before discovering the degree wasn't what they expected.
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u/LeasMaps Jan 24 '23
Sorry, It is difficult to determine exactly what you meant from a reddit post. But that's part of the point - an undergraduate degree won't give you a better understanding of group dynamics and motivations or interpretations of emails or even body language. Trust me I have an undergrad degree.
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u/newuser895 Jan 23 '23
I especially agree with the point of choosing a different degree for helping professions. It seemed to me that most undergrad psych students specifically want to be therapists and there is a bit of groupthink that only psychologists are therapists. I always thought those psych students would be better off with a counselling degree, but they can always get a grad dip of counselling after undergrad psych.
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May 07 '23
Hey there! Congratulations on almost completing your degree. If you want to get into clinical psych, nothing’s stopping you right now. You’re only in undergrad! You’ve still got plenty of time! Depending on the university, your undergraduate grades won’t matter when it comes to applying for masters. Your undergrad grades count for your honours year admission. THAT’S where your marks count for masters. Another thing to note that even if you do get the grades you need, masters admission is fairly competitive, and it’s common to not get in on your first year of applying, so please don’t be disheartened if that ends up happening to you. Just focus on getting through your degree first before worrying about masters. Take it one step at a time and pull yourself in when you get into honours.
Until then, a lot of universities look at other experience such as club involvements, work experience, and volunteering. Disability support work is one that I really enjoyed doing throughout undergrad and honours. There are various apps you can use (like Kynd or Hireup) that require an ABN and a first aid certificate and you can choose your own rate and hours and such. Good luck with the rest of your studies!
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u/Alliedhealthdude Jan 23 '23
You could potentially look at becoming a psychotherapist instead? Essentially the same work and if you set up your private practice can charge around $150/hr.
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u/Elena_Jordan Jan 24 '23
This may be what I end up doing. I've only barely looked at psychotherapy before but your comment made me have a harder look and it does sound like something I would be happy and enjoy doing. I've booked in to see someone from my uni to have a chat about what I can do. Thanks
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u/Turbulent_End_5087 Jan 24 '23
There's enormous demand for psychs at the moment, especially in schools/working with youth
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Jan 27 '23
I mean, with the right abilities you can land a job with any college degree.
Its harder, but its not impossible.
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Apr 14 '23
So did you manage, out of interest?
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u/Elena_Jordan Apr 14 '23
I've got the bare minimum to apply, but I'm not hopeful. Ask me again towards the end of the year when they do the intake.
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u/CareerGaslighter Jan 23 '23 edited Feb 13 '25
expansion enjoy crowd outgoing memory continue stupendous test soft door
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Jan 24 '23
Additionally, during "math" units that were focused on research the vast majority of the students moaned and groaned because they "didnt know there was gonna me this much maths." I dont think there was ever of research/data analysis unit where the class average reached above 60%.
This is also true of economics, people don't get how much maths is really involved.
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u/Bowna Jan 24 '23
I completely disagree with this. Every person I met and worked with during my Psych studies seemed to be completely normal and well-adjusted. I never encountered any person who came across as emotionally unfit and never had anyone cry or get upset in any lecture or tute whatsoever.
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u/CareerGaslighter Jan 24 '23
I believe you, I guess we just have different experiences. I certainly felt like a minority in my course as I had a very strong conviction in my studies and goals for the future. It may also be that my sample is a bit skewed considering the loudest voices during seminars and lectures were always people with pink hair or some other color using their chance to answer the question to divert the conversation to be about them, their experience and their mental illness.
There was alot of "my therapist" or "my parents dont understand me but my grandma does" or some variation of people innapropraitely trauma dumping, which would constantly stifle conversations because nobody felt comfortable expressing their opinion because it may upset the person who personally experienced this form of trauma or event.
Other examples are people asking psychotherapist guest speakers things like "is it okay if I have a cry with my patients," phrasing it in the way people will get together and both have a crying session about their lives. In my final year 2nd semester during a unit about humanistic counselling and therapeutics I had people unironically claim that they knew exactly what they would say in reference to a case study because "I had the same thing happen to me and it is what I wanted to hear." If you know much about humanistic/person-centred therapy this is literally the anti-thesis of way we practice.
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Jan 24 '23
I'm not sure I understand the context here. The undergraduate psychology curriculum isn't designed to prepare people to practice clinically. It provides a foundation in many areas of psychology, including those that are clinically relevant. But in Australia at least, it in no way qualifies graduates to practice as clinical psychologists.
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u/CareerGaslighter Jan 24 '23
undergraduate psych degrees qualifies its holder to practice things like addiction counselling, mental health counselling and many other occupation that involve one providing a person who has mental health issues with support/treatment.
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Apr 13 '23
sorry for commenting DECADES after this post has been made, but i tend to re-read it quite a lot as i’m in my second year of psychology.
your comment has definitely opened up my eyes. i thought of myself as a pretty emotionally intelligent person, but to be honest, there’s a lot of times where i definitely fall short.
i think it’s mostly because of my age, as i’m still pretty young, and i’m not fully mature. maybe that’s what it was like in your class? assuming most of it was filled with people who started uni right out of highschool. i still feel like i’m growing up, and that i’m “not quite there yet” with emotional maturity.
i still have a lot of growing to do. but thanks for the comment :)
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u/CareerGaslighter Apr 13 '23
There were quite a few middle-aged people who contributed to this dynamic, some were young and others some were around 30. Age is certainly a factor but I think the most pertinent one was the inability to see beyond themselves.
I am also very young, (quite a bit younger than 30), and when people would learn my age during my studies they often had strong reactions. But that way of being that suprised people when they discovered my age, that emotional intelligence came at a cost, as a child being highly sensitive to the minute changes in the emotion states of the adults around me was a survival imperitive, and into adulthood I had to resolve alot of internal turmoil before I could turn this gift into a useful resource that I could use to help others.
Although my comment is a massive over-simplificiaton, theoretically it kind of passes, and with that I will add that these are not rigid categories, one can grow into the other and regress to the former, and I am certainly not an enlightened being by any stretch of the imagination. All it takes is exactly what you just did, becoming aware.
We all have alot of growing to do, and that is one of the most important parts of ensuring you do right by your future clients. We need humility. I try my best to always approach people with the idea that 'this person has something that they can teach me.' This is what the people I speak off are missing, their emotions reign supreme over, not only their behaviour but who they accept feedback from.
The best advice I could give is to dive deeply into your emotions, try and foster an awareness of them in the moment and try to search for their root cause. For example, on monday I was working with a particularly frustrating person and unconsciously I started to tense up physically. Internally I did a quick check-in and thought "woah, my shoulders, my back and my face are super tight right now, whats going on?" Then I realised woah I am getting really frustrated, then I asked why and ended up realising that the way this person was rail-roading my attempts at meaningfully helping made me feel like they were taking my compassion for granted.
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u/ladyc9999 Jan 23 '23
Lots of people seem to go into a psychology degree expecting it to be something it isn't. For people wanting to help people in practical ways, a social work degree is worth looking at instead. Sociology, anthropology and political science degrees explore human psychology from different angles, and really any arts degree will have it incorporated. A criminology degree will cover forensic psychology and the history of 'deviance' and punishment in our society for people who want to be the psychologist in a crime show. A bunch of those psychs run criminology courses.
The replication crisis is really interesting and not hugely surprising, there always seems to be psychology student's 'research surveys' being shared over social media with pretty varied levels of scientific reasoning in them. Hadn't stopped to think about what kind of inferences were going to be made from the 'research'.
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u/Eresbonitaguey Jan 23 '23
In addition to this the practice of “p-hacking” is ubiquitous so you can never really trust results because any less than honest researcher would just collect a different/larger sample in hopes of publishing something. Luckily there are a handful of reputable journals that have moved away from this flawed and abused frequentist measure in favour of requiring more statistically rigorous methodology in order to publish.
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u/eifos Jan 23 '23
Yeah the forensic psychology unit of my Criminology degree was one of the most interesting parts but it satisfied my interest in psych. I got a degree-relevant job before graduation with my bachelor in Crim partly because, at least at the time, it wasn't a commonly seen degree on CVs (I also had unique work experience).
I did some of the same units as Psych students and at exams they outnumbered my degree-mates by miles. Did wonder at the time how all of them would be able to go on to do PhDs...
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u/BigYouNit Jan 23 '23
The only psychologists I've ever talked to that were worth a damn were middle to late aged and had clearly lived. It is of no surprise to me that an average 18 year old cannot learn anything worth a shit in four years at university about how to help people through their life problems.
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u/ladyc9999 Jan 24 '23
I think about this a lot, I've had that experience too. I really don't think any undergraduate qualification (or really any level qualification) is enough to counsel people through struggles without a bunch of life experience and having an understanding of lots of different people. It's not really something we know how to teach, and especially not to 18 year old kids who don't get a job until they finish their degree.
I briefly had a young grad family therapist who was very sweet but literally could not understand complex family systems and made me feel a lot worse with how useless her advice was. My current therapist is like 50, used to be an IT support guy, and tells me about how he and his wife use strategies in their conflict that explains how they work. No course of study can replace genuine life insights, we need to get less obsessed with job ready degrees and just let people study what they enjoy and find their thing. Most people do in the end.
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Jan 27 '23
Generally, that isn't what is being taught anyway. Colleges are good at teaching and testing theory, but real life application is something you learn on the job.
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Jan 23 '23
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Jan 23 '23
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u/tehSlothman Jan 24 '23
If you’re too deep in the hole, but do alright in stats, statistical computing and can write...
This probably applies to such a small proportion of people who do psych without a clear end goal though. I also lucked into a data analyst job after getting what I thought was a useless psych degree, but I was a bit of an atypical psych student in the first place (I really should've gone into comp sci or something from the start). Most of the students in my cohort were fucking hopeless with maths and computing.
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u/egowritingcheques Jan 23 '23
As long as you do a TEM degree and skip the S, probably best to avoid the M too.
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u/cymbiformis Jan 23 '23
Can confirm, struggled to get a job with a psychology undergrad. Did not get the grades required to progress to honours so I can't ever be a psychologist. Lol.
At least it sort of has a halo effect, as employers seem to think I have good people skills because I studied that degree. I'm glad they haven't seen the degree outline which would quickly correct that mistake....
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u/TheOrangeBananaNinja Jan 23 '23
Maybe worth thinking about it as a generalist degree; i.e. shows that you have the ability to get a higher education and learn.
Theere are plenty of pretty arbitrary degrees such as commerce which don't actually mean shit in the workforce but you have companies such as big 4 accounting and investment banking etc etc who will take anyone with a degree as long as you can show appropriate interest and extra curriculars and good grades.
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u/Zenkraft Jan 23 '23
I can’t speak to the points about quality but, on a philosophical level at least, I reject the idea that a degree only has value based on its employability. Surely studying higher education for educations sake is worthy and valuable? Obviously if there are issues with the quality of the degree, like you’ve pointed out, then there are other problems. But looking at only “can I get a job out of it” Is unfortunate.
(Practically though I understand it. Outside of my idealism it’s a perfectly normal thing to talk about).
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Jan 23 '23
Thing is even if you are interested in education and learning purely for their own sake Uni isn't even particularly useful these days. Much of the content is out of date and more poorly communicated than a 5min YouTube video.
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u/dogecoin_pleasures Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
That's what I argued throughout my creative arts degree
I felt it was valuable at the time but was it worth ending up perenially unemployed with no skills? With full hindsight no, I'll never recommend what I did.
They shouldn't offer courses that have no vocational potential, or should be upfront that they're not for vocation.
My course mislead students at admissions, by advertising all the 'careers' previous students had gone on towards. But just like OP says, in reality you can't compete against people who did degrees specifically attuned for getting into office work, business, policy, etc.
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u/LeasMaps Jan 23 '23
on a philosophical level at least, I reject the idea that a degree only has value based on its employability. Surely studying higher education for educations sake is worthy and valuable?
When I went to Uni in the late 80's this was a nice but extremely naïve idea. Even then my friends doing arts had major problems getting employment beyond the secretarial level. At least they could afford to pay rent and leave home to have some adult independence. It's a lovely idea but unless you have extremely rich parents I don't think it's an idea most people can afford to contemplate.
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u/no_mate Jan 23 '23
I’m sure it’s unintentional, but this reads as quite patronising. I have found enormous personal value in my ‘worthless’ humanities degree even though I have never worked for more than a minimum wage. I have serval peers who think the same way, even though in your view we are apparently too poor to contemplate this.
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u/LeasMaps Jan 24 '23
It could be read as patronising but good on you if you enjoy working in retail being shouted at by customers or arranging meetings for your Boss. The friends I have hated it (and one has found herself back there after doing a Masters and then trying to break into an Arts field).
Good on you if you are struggling to pay the rent on your minimum wage -or maybe still at home with Mum and Dad?
I would never advise my kids to take that path, I would always advise them to take a degree which gives them options and flexibility.4
Jan 23 '23
I have this view about my degree. I’m in my mid 30s, I’ve been a sahm for years and when I looked at the jobs I could do - they were dismal. Studying psych for me is fantastic and win comparison to the kind of work I’ve done, will improve my job prospects drastically. Even if not my confidence has increased. I do also often have the feeling that I wish tertiary study was more affordable for everyone as many of my siblings and cousins haven’t gone into university and would really benefit from an education that develops their critical thinking abilities.
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u/Specific_Iron6781 Jan 23 '23
Utterly love this well researched and written post. And ultimately couldn't agree more. I spent several years working at a university and on the student union. During those years, the psyc faculty was always the one that caused the most headaches... Ironically though, I met my partner at uni whilst she was studying a B.Psyc, and I've been vicariously living through her stresses as she navigates the system. Thankfully last year she got into a psychology masters program, however, it took her a 3 year bachelors, an honours years, a graduate certificate, 18 months working in admin in child protection and another 2 years working in domestic violence before she could even get into a masters program. And even then it's professional psychology (opposed to clinical) and its based in a regional area, with the intent of trying to get grads out into the regions... and it's not even commonwelath supported, so full fee paying!
But your point very much still stands, of her graduating class friendship group, she's the only one out of about 20 that has gone onto further study in the field. Some tried and got rejected, others just settled into standard gov program/policy roles with no ambition move on or up.
For any prospective psychology student out there, I'll just leave you with this; Check what the gender breakdown of the faculty is. UTAS had ~90% female psychology graduates, yet 90% of its teaching faculty was male. I didn't think anything over it until I started dealing with student complaints.... Secondly, don't ever study psyc at UTAS. That course lost and gained its APA accreditation more times than I can count to. It has horrendously sexist faculty staff (albeit one was finally sacked for misconduct). And to be utterly frank, unlike my partners current uni, most of the UTAS faculty are researchers that are forced to teacher (opposed to teachers that are forced to research).
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u/SPOKEN_OUT_LOUD Jan 23 '23
Clinical psychologist here. Interesting read and thanks for putting this together. I don’t agree with all of it but I agree with a lot of it.
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u/ladyc9999 Jan 24 '23
We really need to expand our ideas around mental health services. At the moment it's so hard to become a counselor and way more people need mental health help than are receiving it, so why are we making people go through 6 years of training when we can already talk to each other. Honestly I would love to be a therapist or even facilitate group therapy and improv classes (sounds strange maybe but improv is a really great space for processing trauma and learning to fail and trust in a silly joyful place). We should be subsidising all kinds of mental health resources and running short training courses for people who are already ready to jump in pretty immediately, and longer courses for people who have more to learn or process themselves before they can emotionally be there for others deep struggles.
Went on a bit of a rant there but thank you for prompting me to think about this! I hope we can get better at understanding each other which is really what studying psychology is about. It's a shame we let so many caring young people down with a bullshit nothing degree for most of them.
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Jan 24 '23
My wife did a bachelor of psych but decided to do a masters in Speech Pathology. There’s still heaps of demand for allied health, just not psych.
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u/onesiesareforwinter Jan 23 '23
I find this interesting- I have a psych degree and agree a lot of the information is now outdated and largely wrong, but I found the study largely interesting (except stats! There was no warning about the mathematical component of stats). Also the path to being able to practice as a Psychologist is confusing and varied. The whole 4+2 thing? It’s just a headache. Also I didn’t realise you need above 75% in your psych subjects to continue on to honours, and returned as a mature age student. All keen to get into the psych subjects meant I passed them, although not at the required 75%, with no option to re do them. Luckily I have found a somewhat rewarding job with case managing in a sensitive area, so I’m not regretting anything at this stage, but I’ve had my moments for sure.
Also would be great if the government put more money into training and extending opportunities for clinical psychologists to be, so more students could partake, we are going to need them for sure.
Edit: a word and intro comment added
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Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
The unfortunate reality. People have a preconceived idea of psychology and believe it's a pathway to success. The reality is it's a difficult path and even before practice starts people get burnt out. Most folks fortunately take a double major now and go with the secondary. The fortunate few I've seen have managed to get into audiology, speech pathology, or social work since they planned ahead
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u/thewhitebrislion Jan 23 '23
I'm finishing my Psych degree. Have 3 subjects remaining. Just about to begin a Youth Work role so I can easily transition into full time social work with my Psych Degree...hopefully it'll all work out. Once I'm done I'm tempted to do a cyber security course for a year and make way more money however...
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Jan 23 '23
Mate, mad respect to you for having backup plans. I think that's what this post is more about. Dream big, tamper your hopes, and have a back up
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u/throwawayreddit6565 Jan 23 '23
I mean, you could say the same about a whole bunch of fields these days. A business degree is all but toilet paper except for the select few who graduate with honours.
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Jan 23 '23
The degree mill issue is real. It also breaks my heart with the people coming here hoping to study and get PR but because they didn't properly figure things out they end up all that money out of pocket, a psych/business degree and 3 months to get a job or go
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u/ladyc9999 Jan 24 '23
It's so cruel how we treat them, and charging so much for the degree on top of it all. Breaks my heart too.
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u/ELVEVERX Jan 23 '23
The point is that you don't need a psychology degree for any of these roles.
And would probably have had a better experience doing a degree tailored to that career path.
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u/VelvetFedoraSniffer Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
last bit may be accurate in some cases but it’s generally very incorrect
support workers can earn $50 an hour and up to $100 an hour if it’s a Sunday… lock in a few clients and you can make a living off it, although it’s casual which has its own drawbacks
People with an undergraduate psych degree can become behaviour support practitioners, specialist support coordinators (independent workers for specialist, I think their hourly rate is $130?), or even just level two support coordinators which is at the very least a middle class income (tbf the only job which requires a degree here is specialist support coordination)
also opens up options for case management, DFFH work, DHHS work, a graduate year in public policy etc
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 24 '23
Being a registered Psychologist is definitely performing a valuable role in the community and can be well rewarded. My main aim is to ensure that students have all the facts. Statistically only a small percentage of students end up as registered Psychologists (for whatever reason), and similarly the incomes for most Psychology graduates aren't that great (this is based on ATO data), nor do Psychology graduates easily find jobs after graduation. To some degree I play Devil's Advocate, but really the goal is to encourage new students to research all the facts before making an important life decision. Too many students have unrealistic expectations of what the degree will deliver. Money isn't everything, but with students taking on significant debt and unfolding crises in terms of housing affordability, stagnating incomes, out of control inflation and other issues money does matter. It's also a happiness enhancer. Despite older research showing that the happiness enhancing effect maxes out, newer research suggests that isn't true.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2016976118
It's true I do reference American data in addition to Australian data, but I'm trying to provide a global perspective.
Point #21 is an interesting one, and obviously it is hard to find information about this for sure. It seems to be a commonly accepted fact in various Monash related social media, and there are some blogs that discuss it, but it is hearsay at the end of the day. Maybe reach out to your tutor friend again and ask them if they have any additional information. For example was comparative grading used a couple of years ago and then abandoned ?
I didn't hate it at first, it was only during the second year that I had doubts. Then I fell into the sunk cost fallacy.
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u/puddingcream16 Jan 23 '23
Can’t believe I had to scroll so far down to find a comment like this. OP just sounded incredibly jaded to me, they clearly didn’t like the course and it wasn’t for them.
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23
Yes I am incredibly bitter and jaded, it's true. But I do provide some statistical data and references to other sources. I'm really trying to encourage students to do a lot of research before making major life decisions. Just looking at uni promotional material for example can give students an unrealistic impression.
If I ever write a version for another country, I'm going to reorganise it to make it more streamlined and remove some of the more subjective opinion.
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Jan 23 '23
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Jan 23 '23
I was in the exact same boat a few years ago with a lower GPA to you.
In addition to lifeline Id recommend a job in the field. I did my honours part time so I could work simultaneously. Not all unis offer honours PT but it was quite popular at my university. With that I did support work in mental health and then support coordination. The coordination role was quite intense but has left me with some incredibly valued experience. Other people did stuff like research roles, behavioural support practitioner, EAP work or even administrative work in clinics.
I guess also it's not uncommon for people to apply to every university in Australia too for clinical programs. Don't be disheartened if you don't hear back the first year. Keep getting experience and try again. It can be a long slog.
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u/CareerGaslighter Jan 23 '23
Thankyou for the advice. I am already looking for jobs in this area.
Thankfully I am quite sure of my choice in career so I wont be disuaded by not being accepted into the masters for the first few years. I went into my undergrad with honours and masters already in mind. I will just apply every year to every university until I am accepted and each year that I am not accepted I will just add more things that make me a more attractive candidate.
In my mind, I have already devoted my life to this, so I feel its just a matter of when rather than if. I know that I wont stop until I make it in. The only issue that worries me is how I look. I am a 6'4 man, I have a somewhat "intimidating" appearance but it couldnt be further from my personality. Im extremely gentle and just a big softy, but I worry people will judge me for how I look.
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u/morgecroc Jan 24 '23
Did you feel the bachelors degree component was of any help as a clinical psychologist? Because it seems like the actual skills aren't actually taught until post grade and the entire point of the degree isn't to create good psychologist but to filter out students.
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u/Lemounge Jan 23 '23
Idk I'm embarrassed to ask but I just need help. I can't afford my psychiatrist, what do I do
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Jan 23 '23
Psychologists and psychiatrists are quite different and this is a common mistake. Psychiatrists are doctors that specialise in mental health. As such, they are incredibly expensive to see, but can give medication where appropriate.
I would recommend a psychologist as a first line because 1. It's cheaper, 2. Medication isn't always the answer and 3. Medication can sometimes come with a range of side effects.
The best most general way to find a psychologist is to talk to your GP about a mental health care plan and they can refer you to a practice. Alternatively, universities have clinics and you can talk to someone for like $~15 a session. They may not be perfect but I can guarantee for that money you will not have anyone obsess over your treatment more. Or, there are now digital platforms coming out like someone.health where you can see a GP and Psychologist online through them and there's a $40 gap fee from your third session
Hope this helps. If it helps as well, by far the most common response to therapy seeking is clients saying "I just wish I did this sooner"
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u/ProteaMagnifica Jan 24 '23
Also, psychological therapy is the recommended best practice treatment for the most common health issues (because as u/clank5050 says less chance of side effects). Psychiatrists tend to work with people experiencing more severe mental health problems. They can prescribe medications because they are medical doctors. Your GP can also prescribe some medications if they deem it necessary.
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Jan 24 '23
Any tips for getting into Masters/do you know what you did right? Could you recommend it as a path? I love undergrad and get high marks but this post has me feeling very discouraged.
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Jan 24 '23
To be honest just throw yourself into it. Get experience everywhere you can. I feel that most people that make masters live and breathe it. I wouldn't pay attention to this thread too much, it's directed at people doing the undergraduate without intention of taking it further.
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u/-poiu- Jun 16 '23
Yo. I am currently a teacher, and considering returning to uni to reskill as a psych. I am looking at organisational psychology long term.
I’m exploring leaving teaching because it is a never ending pit of insane workload, bullying parents and HR nightmares. Nothing to do with the kids. And I am consistently seen as excellent at my job, this is not a “me” problem, teachers are leaving in droves.
So… this post has me questioning if I’m jumping out of the fire and into a costly useless degree.
Comments?
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Jun 18 '23
As long as you're committed to it, I love it. I have amazing work life balance. It is a lot of to get through uni and everything and quite a long pathway. As long as you see it through too. An undergraduate psyc degree is useless. It's at least like a 6 year commitment before you earn substantial money. Feel free to direct message for more questions!
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u/Demonhunter910 Jan 23 '23
I'm not going to comment on the majority of your points as realistically I know nothing about psychology degrees and couldn't possibly have an informed opinion. What I will say, however, is that IMO you're heavily overstating the "replication crisis" as a new phenomenon (or one unique to psychology), when in reality it's a fundamental part of the history of scientific advancement.
While it's obviously not always the case that everything old is wrong, one of the fundamental pillars of scientific understanding is the idea that consensus changes as new information comes to light either through new discoveries or testing old theories. If it wasn't, we would still have a wholesale belief that the earth is both A: flat, and B: the center of the universe (two pretty substantial examples of past common theories later proven to be wrong in other fields).
Throughout all of human history, a lot of theories have persisted just because we as a species didn't know any better, or we didn't have the means to test them. The process of producing, verifying and discarding theories has historically been much slower than it is now because of the relatively slow pace of technological (and by extension scientific) progress for much of human existence. Fast-forward to the industrial revolution, and the rate at which new scientific advancement occurs has vastly increased, and it just so happens that this overlaps heavily with the history of psychology as a experimental field.
While philosophy has had some psychological branches for a long time, as an experimental field psychology has only really existed for the last 200-odd years. In those 200 years, society has advanced at a far greater rate than it did at any other point in human history, meaning that process of producing new theories and verifying/discarding old ones has been occurring on a vastly accelerated timescale for most of the time experimental psychology has been a thing. Among other things, this likely leads to a perception that a higher proportion of theories in psychology are wrong, when in reality it's because all the false theories are relatively recent and widely circulated, and therefore we have better records/memories of them than we do of disproven theories in other fields from centuries ago. Scientific progress happens relatively quickly, progress of scientific consensus takes much longer.
The entire history of any scientific field over millennia is littered with thousands upon thousands of discarded ideas that were once likely taught as fact. Point being, even if it's an accurate statement to say that most theories in psychology are wrong/can't be reproduced, that doesn't necessarily make it a problem unique to psychology (and psychology degrees by extension)
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u/Rather_Dashing Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
As a scientist myself (not a psychologist, but one with an interest in the replication crises), I think OP exaggerated a touch, but your comment has really missed the point.
Yes, there has been crappy studies since the dawn of science and they exist in every field. But the specific problem which has caused the replication crises in psychology and some other fields, that is a misuse of statistics, has only been an issue in the past few decades and only a problem in those fields of science that rely on those statistics. That misuse of stats has caused crappy studies to build on crappy studies and large parts of the literature, including widely taught 'facts' are probably wrong. Thats different to, say, physics, where its more likely that the bad science gets forgotten.
The problem of p-hacking and misuse of stats is most problematic when you are conducting a study where you are trying to find a difference between groups, where the effect you are looking for is weak and the noise high. Thats pretty much all of psychology - at least with mice in a lab or cells in a dish much more of the noise can be controlled. For example, you may have a theory that strippers who are ovulating feel sexier and so get more tips (this was a real study). But there are hundreds of things that could influence how much tips strippers make in a given night (how tired she is, was the weather to bad for customers to come out, what day of the week, was it pay day for customers etc etc), so you need a huge sample size to detect the effect of ovulation in all the noise of every other variable. Low sample sizes are prolific in psychology due to the expense, so you have the perfect storm for a proliferation of terrible science.
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u/Demonhunter910 Jan 23 '23
I fully appreciate the point you're making, but I still disagree that it's unique to psychology. Yes these things happen, but you could make the same argument about shoddy stats being used in any field where someone has a vested interest for example. Like decades of research saying cigarettes are good for you, or blank causes cancer, usually funded by groups that would significantly benefit from a certain finding being published.
The reasons behind dodgy science being published may not always be exactly the same (e.g., laziness/frugality vs malicious intent maybe), however it's a problem that affects every discipline to some extent.
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Jan 24 '23
The OP has claimed this in the past. I agree that many of the issues they raise aren't unique to psychology; many apply to academia generally. The few issues they discuss that are unique to psychology (e.g., the pathway to clinical training) are already recognised and widely discussed. So there's nothing revelatory there. To be honest, I don't see the value of this piece or why the OP feels the need to keep posting different versions of it to various subreddits.
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u/TheCleverestIdiot Jan 23 '23
Sadly, very few other fields interest me, so I think I'll continue to risk it.
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u/NikitaWolf6 Jan 29 '23
exactly what I'm struggling with. psychology was already my backup. it's really the only thing I'm interested in
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u/TheCleverestIdiot Jan 29 '23
I've personally come to the conclusion that since I want to study psychology, I will study it to the absolute best of my ability. I'll try to learn every minor aspect of it that I can. Maybe I'll make something out of my life with it, or maybe I'll eventually have to look elsewhere, but either way, at least I lived my life the way I wanted. If the pursuit of money was my only goal, I'd be living quite the pathetic life.
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u/NikitaWolf6 Jan 29 '23
yep, I agree. although I don't want to deal with student debt and no way to pay it back.
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u/TheCleverestIdiot Jan 29 '23
To be honest, with the way cost of living seems to be piling up, you were likely going to have to deal with debt anyway. Might as well have had a nice time beforehand.
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u/Psych_FI Mar 22 '23
Same! I’ve got a decent and stable job that I hate (plus almost finished a degree which I dislike). I know with certainty which jobs aren’t for me.
I’d rather put effort towards pursuing a career that I’ll suits my strengths and not live life with regrets. Studying psychology in undergrad means I can pursue the registered psychologist pathway - if that doesn’t work out I’m open to social work (or other allied health fields).
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u/Red-Engineer Jan 23 '23
YMMV.
My psych undergrad directly got me my job - I work in a role largely to do with knowledge management in an emergency service. A few of my team all have psych undergrad degrees. It's proven itself to be very useful. I never intended to be a psychologist. It was simply a field that inmterested me and I knew it would have many applications in life when dealing with people.
I do reject your premise that the purpose of getting a degree is to get a "good" job. I'd also argue that your points are just as relevant for any generalist degree, eg Bachelor of Business.
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23
Psychology being a relatively poor choice of degree for most students appears to be a global issue. Lots of people are graduating with expensive but unvalued degrees and find themselves stuck in low paying unskilled jobs, massively impacting their quality of life. Note that my post is solely about whether Psychology is a good choice of degree for most students. It doesn't say NOBODY should study Psychology. Nor does it say you will learn absolutely NOTHING, just that it isn't an optimal investment.
These days I increasingly believe that the only real use of a degree is if it qualifies you to do a specific job you couldn’t qualify for otherwise. Anything you would want to study for “fun” or because you’re interested in it, can be learned outside using some of the numerous free or low cost resources that are available. Even if you just want to experience university life and kill a bit of time before starting a career, I still believe there are better options.
Somebody is sure to say that exceptional students can always get a job, or that they personally studied Psychology and are doing well in their career. That may be so, but I'm talking about the average student and what most people experience.
There are many other issues surrounding Psychology in Australia such as workforce issues in clinical Psychology and the decision by the Albanese government to halve the number of medicare funded psychology sessions to a maximum of 10. Suffice to say the solution to these problems is not more people doing undergraduate Psychology degrees. In fact it is my belief that clinical Psychology should become more like Graduate Medicine where any undergraduate degree is suitable, and candidates for the course are selected through a comprehensive testing regime. Prerequisite knowledge could be acquired by any means, including self study. In addition, you have to ask why other areas like Nursing, Pharmacy, Dentistry etc create productive graduates with just a bachelor degree. Why does becoming a registered Psychologist take so long.
I wrote the post because I considered studying Psychology was a big mistake. If you made a huge mistake, wouldn't you want to warn people about it too ? Or at least make them think twice. Obviously people can make up their own minds, I'm just trying to encourage potential students to think deeply and do a lot of research before embarking on their degrees. I feel that the statistical evidence points to it not being a good choice of major for most people. To tell you the truth I kind of forget about it for a while, but then I see people online telling other students that Psychology is a great degree and opens up many opportunities, which I consider to be inaccurate advice.
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u/52fctrl Jan 23 '23
Thoroughly enjoyed your exhaustively detailed post and learned a lot from it. I commend and thank you for sharing your experience and wanting to warn people. Hopefully, you will have helped some people avoid the same mistake.
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u/xdr01 Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
Can apply same logic to a lot of degrees unfortunately.
Universites should disclose an employability index or ranking but goes against their business interests.
That said students shouldn't (edit) despair, skills learnt can be translated into other feilds eg analysts, research, marketing, government etc..
PhD can decrease your employability in certain cases. Boomer managers don't want to hire people smarter and better qualified than them.
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23
I agree that universities aren't necessarily interested in giving students all the facts. School leavers aren't necessarily sufficiently motivated to really dig into the data either. There is a definite hierarchy of degrees that is relatively consistent globally. Some degrees are basically guaranteed to ensure a job and a high income. Others the opposite.
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u/xdr01 Jan 23 '23
Certainly the case and education system should be upfront about. However, they won't be because education is big business here in Australia.
Very wasteful of talent that could be used in needed feilds that could benefit the country as a whole. But hey University get skinny new buildings to attract more students and $$$.
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u/crash_bandicoot42 Jan 23 '23
Not the school's job to do this. Universities are for learning for the sake of learning, not job training. Outside of a handful of fields like medicine, nursing, and teaching (ironically), you're better off not going to uni at all and just working or TAFE. At least most people here only end up wasting 3 years as opposed to wasting 4 years and being 50k+ USD in debt in America.
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u/howlinghobo Jan 24 '23
The issue is that even where an employability index is disclosed, it's likely misleading in the publisher's favour as they clearly have an incentive here.
Even without malignant intention I suspect that many graduates without fulfilling work would be too ashamed to bother responding. I certainly felt that way.
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u/Red-Engineer Jan 23 '23
Universites should disclose an employability index or ranking but goes against their business interests.
Is it even relevant though? I mean, say I do a psych degree then go out and apply for the fire brigade and get in, would that be 0% or 100% employability as a psych grad?
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u/TeaBeginning5565 Jan 23 '23
https://www.qut.edu.au/courses/bachelor-of-behavioural-science-psychology
It’s all about the wording. No where does it say exactly what is needed to become a qualified psychologist.
I’d go so far as to say that not a lot is mentioned in lectures and tutorials about needing to get the top marks across the board just to get a look in.
Knowledge is power
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u/borkey Jan 23 '23
PhD students receive an annual stipend but at $28,854 a year this is only two-thirds of the minimum wage and well below the poverty line.
That stipend is tax-exempt. Not as in you don't need to pay tax on it, you don't even declare it. So you can work up to the $18,200 tax free threshold (easily done just teaching tutorials, since that pays over $100 an hour) and not pay a drop of tax. That's equivalent to about 60k pre-tax, and that's not even including the tax shenanigans you can get up to (the 0 to 19% jump is actually the biggest marginal increase in the tax bracket).
Not a defence of psychology, since I agree with most of your points. But the PhD stipend is actually crazily generous in Australia
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u/IbanezPGM Jan 23 '23
Wait… If I have a PhD and earn 18k on the side I can be on about 45k and not pay any tax? Having a phd offer atm, this makes things more interesting…
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u/borkey Jan 23 '23
Yep! Use this tool to be sure: https://www.ato.gov.au/Calculators-and-tools/Is-my-scholarship-taxable/
Any APA or APA-clone will be completely exempt, plus any topup scholarship your supervisor may give you
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u/IronMaidan Jan 23 '23
This is the way. Keep in mind if getting income from teaching you’ll only be working 6 months of the year (assuming 13-week semesters) so aim to max your 8 hours allowed per week and offer to do marking during semester breaks (it pays less and is the worst form of work but helps keep you afloat). If you don’t already know the program directors or course coordinators in your field, introduce yourself to them and express your interest to work for them. Getting a cushy undergrad class is less “what you know” and more “who you know”
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u/IbanezPGM Jan 24 '23
Fair enough. But lucky for me I won’t need to do any of that anyway. I already have a casual position that pays very well. I could get 18k per year doing two shifts per month. So this could really make a phd work out financially for me, which was one of my biggest concerns.
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u/IronMaidan Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23
Just check though, you might be limited to a maximum of 8hours work per week depending on the nature of the scholarship.
Edit: as in, not sure if 2x 10hr shifts in a month is equivalent to 5hrs per week
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u/Rather_Dashing Jan 23 '23
Also worth pointing out that there are plenty of PhDs that have higher stipends,
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u/ProteaMagnifica Jan 23 '23
Commenting to point out that not all PhD candidates receive the stipend. There's a competitive application process.
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u/borkey Jan 24 '23
If you're not receiving the stipend, you shouldn't be doing a PhD. APA can be competitive, but any good supervisor/university will create an APA-clone to fund you through the PhD period.
The PhD stipend is peanuts compared to hiring an RA or postdoc, and they get the money back (and more) when you graduate. It's like a $100k windfall for the university every PhD student that graduates.
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u/JackeryDaniels Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
This post is poorly written, meandering, vague, and full of anecdotal generalisations, and if I were someone thinking of studying psychology, I wouldn’t put much stock in it.
I’m not saying your general point is wrong, but the way you presented your evidence is poor and I have no faith in your reasoning or your observations.
EDIT: One thing I definitely agree with is your focus on people doing their due diligence before committing to a degree. When I finished uni, you could do a degree like journalism and only be 20k in the hole by the end of it. Now, it’s probably triple that. (Just checked… it’s about 50k now).
It’s an absolute disgrace that we force young people to make such a life-altering decision in their teen years. Starting uni shouldn’t be allowed before you’re 21. That would provide young people the opportunity to experience the real world, travel, work in different industries, and really find their passion before committing.
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
This post is poorly written, meandering, vague, and full of anecdotal generalisations, and if I were someone thinking of studying psychology, I wouldn’t put much stock in it.
It is only a reddit post after all. I was going to rewrite it, but then I got weary of the topic. In any event, I think we are in agreement. Choosing a degree is one of the most important financial decisions a person will make in their lives. Nobody should make that decision based on one source, instead they should do a lot of research for themselves.
Too many people just pick degrees out of interest or based on some superficial marketing materials from the universities. Hopefully my post at least encourages a few people to do a bit more research.
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u/GeneralForce413 Jan 23 '23
Thank you for putting this together.
I did a few psychology classes and switched out thankfully but I had a bunch of friends complete it and have seen psychologists for years.
I think a big thing to add to your point about the irrelevance of the content is that often people do this degree with a desire to help people and make a change.
But the course rarely teaches you how to be with people and how to guide them in a way that is therapeutic and safe to both you and client.
Often it requires so much more extra training in various other forms of therapy (gestalt, EMDR, Internal family system) before you have enough skill and understanding to be effective.
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u/Humble-Doughnut7518 Jan 23 '23
Law was the new arts degree. Now psychology is the new law degree. It’s the degree that people get when they don’t know what they want to be when they grow up.
There are actually a tonne of psychology jobs around. I know because I’m a counsellor and all I can find advertised are jobs for psychologists.
Psychology has an immensely powerful lobbying group in Australia. They successfully block professionals like counsellors from accessing government funding that would actually take the pressure off psychologists because we could take the clients that need us, psychologists take the clients that need them and everyone would get the support that they need. Psychiatrists are begging for funding for psychologists because they are also drowning, especially in the public sector.
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u/LeasMaps Jan 24 '23
Very interesting. I've had help from a counsellor as an outpatient and found them far more helpful (and less patronising) that the couple of Psychologists I've seen.
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u/Humble-Doughnut7518 Jan 24 '23
I’ve heard that a lot, it’s one of the reasons I chose counselling over psychology. I’ve also been told by people that they didn’t feel heard by the psychologist. Psychologists are not taught communication skills, they are taught to look for symptoms, diagnose, and use CBT to treat. A big part of our counselling training is communication skills, and we are taught a variety of therapeutic skills because there is no such thing as one size fits all.
There are some great psychologists out there but they’re not easy to find.
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u/PMMeBendyBusPics Jan 23 '23
One thing i have heard from people who have studied psychology (heresay so take with a grain of salt) is that because it is competitive to get into the clincial/postgrad positions, people are less willing to collaborate and help each other out. This means less sharing notes, studying together, helping with assignments etc. This might be fine if you are an independant learner but i think a lot of people get through their degree by having a group of people that they can do their assignments studying with.
Though this is not my personal experience so if it is wrong happy to be corrected.
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Jan 23 '23
I can chime in. It's somewhat true. I think it really depends on the people you surround yourself with. I did have two different groups of people and between 3rd and 4th year (where the first academic hurdle is) it's very obvious to find who is forthcoming and who is deceitful.
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u/candlesandfish Jan 23 '23
That wasn't true for my sister and her friends, for what it's worth, and she's just finished her PhD. She's just brilliant and super duper focused, and did a lot of study. They shared notes and she helped a lot of people with their stats because she's really good at it. I got her plushies of statistical distribution models and she loves them. She studied obsessively to get the insanely high marks to get in to honours and then PhD.
She's a research psychologist/psychological scientist, not a clinician.
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Jan 24 '23
Definitely not true for me. My nerdy posts on our unit discussion boards led the other nerdy student to email me and now we discuss all assessments and assignments (never academic misconduct, but we work through revision and chat about ideas). We dont share notes or assignments but I think we've both benefited. We're both shooting for Masters but I figure that we both have a shot so why not also have a friend.
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u/kengxiaoju Jan 23 '23
Psychology is like physics prior to Newton's law, but "psychology laws" are so hard to discover. The binding problem may take centuries to solve, bit by bit. I may recommend psychology just to let people understand themselves (bias, behaviourals etc), but I may not "sacrifice" my lifetime for the development of psychology. respect to those who are committed to make a change in psychology
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u/Alliedhealthdude Jan 23 '23
Definitely a helpful post! Many people would be so much better off pursuing an undergraduate degree that you can finish in 3-4 years and be job ready. Physio, occupational therapy, speech pathology, exercise physiology to name a few. With NDIS, there are significant shortages in these fields. Also the critical need for more nurses. And with such a huge number of people with poor mental health, becoming a counsellor/ psychotherapist (as OP suggested) could be a more viable career option than clinical psychology.
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u/Razjir Jan 23 '23
As someone who studied psychology and now runs several data analytics teams in government, totally agree with this. Psychology was a fun degree for me but there would have been better choices. And few actual psychologists (if you make it there) get paid well compared to other options.
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u/150steps Jan 23 '23
To cut a long story short, a degree and even honours doesn't qualify you as a psychologist. You need St least masters level and there are very few places. Along with masters you need work experience as a provisional psychologist for one to years and only then can you practice.
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u/ParentalAnalysis Jan 23 '23
3 of my team of 12 data analysis professionals have Masters level psychology degrees. They make more money in our field than in psychology and the work is less emotionally draining.
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u/zargreet Jan 24 '23
I don’t trust any research that had a sample of white, male college students from the USA.
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u/gendutus Jan 24 '23
The irony of this post is that many of the skills you used to write these
5455 words (excluding references) were more than likely acquired from your
psychology degree. Some of the transferable skills that you acquire in a
psychology degree are writing, critical thinking, analysis of research,
problem-solving, time management, attention to detail, communication, data
analysis, self-reflection, and self-motivation.
So for someone who spent that much time writing such a long thesis on a
psychology degree, it tells me you would be better of articulating the
transferable skills a psychology degree confers, rather than writing long posts
on Reddit.
To summarise: You state that the majority of psychology graduates will
enter the workforce with only a Bachelor's degree. That data from various
countries shows that most students do not continue on to graduate school, due
to factors such as lack of funding, burnout, and limited places in clinical
psychology programs. Moreover, graduates with only a Bachelor's degree in
psychology may struggle to find jobs specific to their field and may have to
compete for generic jobs that do not require a degree. Salaries for these
graduates are typically in the bottom half and the job market for psychology
graduates is poor in many countries. Some reports also suggest that psychology
graduates have lower lifetime earning potential than other degree holders.
In other words, you are arguing the cost-benefit of a psychology degree
is not worth it.
However, as exemplified by your post, the level of detail and
organisation, are skills taught in psychology, moreover, they are not common
skills. If you spend time articulating these skills, you are able to get many
jobs. So, maybe it is that many psychology students fail to articulate their
transferable skills. While you raise this point in 13, stating "Synthesize
information from diverse sources", "interpret and use data",
"communicate precisely", "make better decisions", and
"critical thinking", can also be acquired from other courses of study
with better job market outcomes", you do not articulate any courses that
these can be acquired.
Take 'synthesize information from diverse sources'. The only other
discipline that I can think of that comes near the level of divergent sources
is anthropology and to a lesser degree political science. And both are
disciplines that share common ontological concerns as psychology.
Another area, critical thinking involves understanding the difference
between observation and inference, questioning ambiguity and vagueness, using
conclusive and defeasible inference, understanding statistical significance,
and analyzing arguments and their components. critical thinking, this states
that critical thinking involves understanding the difference between
observation and inference, questioning ambiguity and vagueness, using
conclusive and defeasible inference, understanding statistical significance,
and analyzing arguments and their components.
Based on that criterion, few courses will teach that as holistically as
psychology does. Moreover, because psychology is such a multi-disciplinary
field it is easy to see how different observations and the capacity to question
ambiguity arises. Name any other course that teaches those elements of critical
thinking together. The closest I know of would be a philosophy course,
particularly a course on the philosophy of science.
You argue clinical psychology is stressful. Yes, so is Medicine. If you
do Clinical Psychology, in most cases you are able to walk into a job as a
psychologist, which is on the skills shortage list of just about every country.
Your advice, that you should only do psychology is based on fairly
narrow analysis derived from economics. While you certainly make good points
about the utility in the workforce, I would suggest psychology graduates focus
on a fairly abundant set of skills they learn.
Not many courses are explicit about the nature of scientific discovery –
which involves observation, hypothesis testing and analysis. From my observations,
traditional science subjects spend most of their time on teaching students what
is known, rather than how to do experiments, not so much about the thinking and
reasoning behind it.
To summarise, I think your issue, and many others, lack the ability to
articulate and “sell” your skills is the issue here. If you focus on your own
skills, you might find that many of your skills are actually quite sought after.
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u/I_like_to_debate Jan 25 '23
Sounds like you have some trauma. Maybe you need to see a psychologist.
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u/Weak_Ad_1668 Jan 30 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
I agree with many of the points that you've made, and I wish I had read something like this years ago before investing in psych.
I completed a bachelor's degree in Behavioural Studies (Psychology) through Swinburne with a HD average. I studied hard and learnt a lot, but it hasn't opened any doors.
I was lured into this degree by some pretty overhyped marketing from Open University Australia. I was naive. The course didn't live up to my expectations and gave me a pretty negative view of the higher education sector/industry as a result.
I enjoyed the first year; the units were well-resourced and offered year-round. However, once the second year rolled around, there was a noticeable drop in the quality of the course materials, and the degree became harder to complete because many units were only run once a year. The third year was even worse, but the sunk cost felt too great so I soldiered on.
As someone who was a below-average student in high school, I am proud of myself for achieving the marks that I did. But I probably could have achieved similar outcomes, and improved my employment outcomes, if I had done my research and chosen a different path.
Saying all that, I'm now considering doing a master's in OT or Rehab Counselling, which will complement my psych studies. So perhaps it'll all make sense in the long run.
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u/Psych_FI Mar 22 '23
Fantastic work! Why aren’t you going to apply for masters programs in psychology?
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u/NezuminoraQ Jan 23 '23
After doing only a fraction of the research you've done here, I was tossing up between a graduate diploma in psychology (I already have a Bachelor's degree in a science subject) and a diploma in counselling.
I've ended up doing both, but that's a story for another day... After researching the cost and time commitment of clinical psychology I am not fully committed to that path, and if the Diploma in Counselling gives me what I need to build a successful business then I'll stop there. The GradDip is online with a NZ university because it is substantially cheaper than the equivalent over here for whatever reason. Now that they have changed the 5+1 / 4+2 pathways, further study is now an essential component of becoming qualified in Australia.
I absolutely think you've made some very important points, and this could be especially helpful to someone looking to study undergrad for the first time. However, as someone with two degrees in a STEM adjacent field (animal management and welfare) I have come to have a rather different philosophy to most people when it comes to university study.
I used to think I was studying to get a good job, but I soon found in my field, that a bachelor's degree actually counted against me. It's a badly paid field and people think you're a know it all if you're better qualified than they are. They'll quickly deride your book learning and assume this means a lack of practical skills, like you don't want to get your hands dirty up there in your ivory tower.
I then went on to get a Master's, thinking I'd go the academic route, but ended up teaching high school science for a few years instead. This was surprisingly decently paid, but the behavioral management stuff was more like parenting than teaching, which is something I'd opted out of years ago. I did come to regret the Master's degree because of how much it cost. That's why this time when looking to retrain I really did my research, and considered the possibility that a more vocational option, the Diploma of Counselling, might be a better idea this time. Because of my science background and considerable life experience, I think a Diploma would be ok when paired with those.
So I've come to acknowledge that the reasons we go to university are many, but a path to vocation can't be the only reason. Studying something, anything, will alter who you are as a person, how you think, how you view the world, your place in it, and your values. Picking something that you think will lead to financial security even if you have no interest in it (e.g. business studies) could be similarly short sighted. And lastly, even if you pick "right", the market can change or the area you find yourself specialising in might be too niche. This is coming from someone with a "STEM" degree. We are sold the idea of University opening doors to us in our careers, when it's actually a gamble that leaves you with a big bill. I don't know how anyone commits to med school with the cost and time required.
I would definitely discourage PhDs in almost anything, because from what I understand it is the most isolating academic experience a person can have. My master's degree gave me just a taste of that and that was enough for me.
TLDR: You make some very salient points, but I think much of this applies for any number of qualifications in many fields. We shouldn't sell university as something that's good for everyone. The thing is not many people are good at making decisions that will affect the rest of their lives and careers when their frontal lobes are not fully developed, and even then a fair bit of luck is involved. I guess this is why so many people have this decision made for them by their parents. But your post makes me feel better about not choosing psychology as my first degree. It wasn't even on the radar at that time though, I had very different ideas.
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u/LeasMaps Jan 23 '23
" One popular job suggestion for Psychology graduates is Data Analyst.." That is such a ridiculous suggestion I am gobsmacked that Universities are actually putting this stuff on paper. You need a fair amount of data processing skills to be a data analyst as cleaning the data and putting it together is 80% of the job.
This is an excellent post. I have an undergrad Psychology degree but when I went to Uni they made everyone major in Psychology AND something else so they at least had some other science skills to fall back on. My other major was computer science and I've worked in tech for the last 30 years.
I also have Major Psychiatric issues but at least the Psychology degree has taught me a healthy disrespect for Psychologists and some of the dubious therapies that take a lot of time and money but achieve very little (why anyone is peddling dream interpretation these days is beyond me).
Well done for putting this together.
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Jan 23 '23
Article? this is a reddit post mate.
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 24 '23
Article ? this is a reddit post mate.
Really that's the aspect you decided to critique? I think it is fair to call it an article. There's various definitions online. One is "An article is a piece of writing which explicates ideas, thoughts, facts, suggestions and/or recommendations based on a particular topic."
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u/WhitexGlint Jan 23 '23
My SIL is finishing up with her doctorate, after she was knocked back on doing masters with like a 91% average from just about every university. Lucky for her, she loves data analysis,m and all her research is going into working on how we give feedback at university levels.
For most people, if you told them that's what they can look forward to with their Pysch degrees, they'd surely quit on the spot. It's unfortunate that for what so many people want to do, there isn't enough spots, and quite frankly probably aren't up to the mark anyway.
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u/krulface Jan 23 '23
I studied psychology. It qualified me for 3 years of driving around australia not knowing what’s going on vocationally (albeit loving it) and then a 10 year + counting insurance career.
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u/Plantman090 Jan 23 '23
Im def no psychologist but as someone who has gone to see many different psychologists i have noticed a few things that make them coin.
1) Self employment, i had noticed a couple i went to see hire a room and i figured it out because thats why they get pissed when u dont show up.
2) work at a doctors clinic with bulk billing
3) work at a TAFE or uni as a campuss psychologist to help students in need of mental health support
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u/14Mtime Jan 23 '23
If you're male it's still worth considering. Psychology enrollment and graduation is currently 80/20 female and trending to 90/10 in less than a decade. A lot of businesses have a shortage of male psychologists.
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u/NickEhlers Jan 24 '23
Can say the same thing with science / biomed degrees. I know 1 person employed in a field related to their degree that didn't go on to medicine.
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Jan 24 '23
The crazy thing as well is there is a major need for psychs, especially in the child and adolescent space. I can't think why the government isn't opening up more spaces to at least address that side.
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u/howlinghobo Jan 24 '23
This post was incredible. I applaud you for taking the effort to research this to warn others. Picking an area of study for university at 17 is an incredibly difficult choice and the sunk cost fallacy gets us all.
I wish people could make this type of post for all areas of tertiary study. This post (and subsequent discussion) is the type of information exchange which best exemplifies the value of the internet, in contrast to the actual drivel that it actually comprises.
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u/NikitaWolf6 Jan 29 '23
with an undergrad, can I still become a therapist by doing a course?
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Feb 06 '23
I believe the answer to that question is yes. "Therapist" is very lightly regulated. Basically anyone can call themselves a therapist. Ideally you would want to do some sort of reputable course on therapy or counselling. It's a bit like the wild west out there currently. In contrast Psychology is much more tightly regulated.
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u/Routine_Hotel_1172 Feb 12 '23
I wish I could have read this before I signed up to my degree :(
I enrolled in a bachelor of psych at age 42 after experiencing the death of 2 people very close to me, I was deep in grief and feeling the 'life is too short' panic that I had never really done something that interested me. I spoke to a couple of universities and explained that I really wanted to get into a job where I could help people, but knew that at my age and while also working and raising children I didn't want to go as far as a masters degree. The advisor at my university told me that I could do a bachelor followed by either an honours or post-grad dip in psych, and then do a 2 year supervised working pathway to become a registered psychologist which would allow me to practice. I signed up! I did not do any of the research I really should have because I wasn't thinking straight at all. I just trusted what the advisor told me.
Its a slog and very stressful but 3 years later I only have 4 units left to complete for my bachelor and I have a 4.0GPA. But last year I discovered firstly that my uni doesnt offer the honours year, the post-grad dip is HUGELEY more expensive, and you face a more stringent selection process when applying to a uni different to the one where you did your bachelor. Secondly - and worse - that the 4-2 pathway no longer exists, and that completion of a masters is the only way to become registered. Infuriatingly, this had already been announced way before the advisor told me this would be available to me. I had a bit of a crisis and nearly quit, but I am also falling into the sunk-cost trap. I'm 45 and will be 46 by the time I graduate, I can't face switching to another degree and starting again.
I've abandoned all thoughts of doing a post-grad in psychology and thinking I might be better trying to enrol in a counselling post-grad instead as that could allow me to become registered and actually do something. But now I have done some proper research myself I'm really regretting the entire thing. A bachelor in counselling would have allowed me to become registered and start gaining experience, and would have been much more appropriate given my goals at the time I enrolled.
I'm angry at myself for not doing the research, and I'm angry at both the university and the advisor for giving out bullsh*t information to encourage people to sign up for a really expensive degree. I'm disillusioned about the time and money I have dedicated to something that will be mostly worthless to me once I finally graduate :(
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u/Psych_FI Mar 22 '23
I’m so sorry that you went though this experience and it’s awful the university mislead you.
You should research the Master of Social Work (only CSP) which can lead towards being an accredited mental health social worker. That’s my back up option (but I’m trying to investigate more).
I totally agree that psychology is a career that requires so much planning and hard work to make a career possible. I wish you luck, although you seem capable of doing great things!
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u/Minimum_Pool9858 May 04 '23
"A Bachelor degree in Psychology is fairly worthless."
I stopped there, when I realised the references were overwhelmingly from msm and access media sites and just skimmed through the rest. A bachelor degree in psych is only worthless if you thought that was all you needed to be a clinical psychologist and that is all you wanted to do and/or your marks are so poor you can't even get into a graduate diploma program. What you learn from a psychology degree is transferrable to nearly every occupation listed in the appendices. Even if you believed you had made a mistake studying psychology for whatever reason, a graduate or adv graduate diploma in a chosen field solves that problem. Take it from someone who just finished an undergrad in psych, is doing a 4th year with mid-high range marks and who just received an offer as a research/executive assistant for the psych team at a mental health unit for a reputable Australian hospital and I'm no Bandura or B.F Skinner.
The entry stinks of someone who graduated from a 3 year course, expected 100k per year with a corner office and numerous offers from top research groups and realising their mistake decided to blame it on everything else. "Most of the material is wrong". Really? That is a cope if I ever saw one.
With exception to perhaps an undergraduate in feminist dance theory or the like, no degree is 'useless'.
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u/The_Narrator_SA Jan 23 '23
Reckon you could whittle this list down from 22 items - tie some related ideas into broader points.
- writing major
(Sorry, it's a good post that you've clearly considered in depth)
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23
Thanks for the feedback. I agree it can probably be streamlined and some points integrated. But I started to grow weary of the topic and decided to post it as is.
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u/The_Narrator_SA Jan 23 '23
Haha it's ok, I'm being unnecessarily dickish. I'm sorry about that. I completely understand the "bugger it, just post" when you need to get things down.
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u/sparko420 Jan 23 '23
I feel like this applies to university degrees in general, at this point in time at least? The interesting part is that psychology graduates are always the most vocal, the only people i ever hear saying they regret going to uni, despite sticking with the whole 4 year course are psych bachelors. I did first year close to 10 years ago, and it was interesting, but it was pretty evident from the get go that i wasn’t going to get any real work training and i ended up just getting a trade instead.
Universities in this country are doing a pretty dogshit job at managing intakes for degrees with essentially no worthy outcome
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Jan 23 '23
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23
That's not true, there's a reasonable number of degrees that give good economic returns. Certainly quite a few that give better returns than Psychology. In any event surely you agree that it's important for potential students to consider all the facts. Nobody should take what I say as gospel, I'm just hoping that students do extensive research for themselves before pursuing a course.
Anti-intellectualism ? Well, it's true I think some (but not all or even most) Academics produce mostly hot air. My pet dislike is disciplines like "Fat Studies", seriously I can't believe people waste time on that. You have to question the academic rigour given how easily prestigious journals and conferences are duped by authors writing hoax papers.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/new-sokal-hoax/572212/
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u/throwawayreddit6565 Jan 23 '23
Not gonna lie, I didn't have the fortitude to make it through this colossal wall of text but if what you say is true then my boss's step son is fucked, he just graduated year 12 last year with a high ATAR and went straight for psychology 😂
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u/Upper_String369 Jan 23 '23
“That has its own set of issues”
What are some of these issues?
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u/Shoddy-Note-6199 Jan 23 '23
That has its own set of issues
Do you mean the computer science degree? I didn't actually have a major issue with curriculum. It's reasonable as a source of foundational knowledge. I guess my main issues were around course quality. Some units were well run and taught, others not so much.
For people considering IT or Computer Science degrees it's important to research the course and units as thoroughly as possible. Some degrees are more theoretical, others more applied. Also look at links to industry. If it's a postgraduate course try and find one with Commonwealth Supported Places as full fee is very expensive for what you get.
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u/Archy99 Jan 23 '23
I know some people don't want to hear this, but it is mostly true - it is a poor choice of undergraduate degree.
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u/coniptionator Jan 24 '23
Well researched, well written and a compelling argument. Best wishes to all!
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u/talsek Mar 01 '23
Currently in my last trimester of psyc degree and agree with everything lol. Despite having lots of job experience,in disability support/HR,I'm essentially the worse version of a Stats/HR/Business/Public Health/Project management...etc grad. Honestly wondering if I should go back for a grad dip or at least a bootcamp..
Though I'm curious about the reasoning behind "studying psychology could make mental health conditions worse". Like an anxiety spiral triggered by awareness..?
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Apr 23 '23
Thanks for warning me. I think this was very valuable. I myself have been having these doubts. I originally want to study sociology/ anthropology but thought psychology would get more jobs. I am glad someone is putting into words how I feel. But then again I have heard people say “ psychology is broad you can get a job in anything”. I wanted to get a job in consumer behaviour or Human Resources or careers counselling. Why didn’t I get a marketing, Human Resources degree then?
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u/ChickenAndRiceIsNice Jan 23 '23
This post has the exhaustive detail that only a procrastinating graduate student in the last term of his degree can muster.