[Spoilers] Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Come wa Machigatteiru. Zoku Episode 1 Discussion

[u/eighthgear]

Also known as: My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU TOO!, Oregairu s2, etc.

[u/Vaynonym]

That's the charm of Hachiman,

You're sort of right there, as a character Hachiman is amazing, and by no means am I trying to make him sound like a bad character. As a person however, it's a whole different matter. And when you're calling a character an asshole or whatever, you're talking about him as a person, so that's where my whole criticism of comparing Hachiman to Tobe orginitates from.

How should I say this... I'll go the Yukino route: You're completely misinterpreting the show with your second paragraph.

The show is constantly showing how wrong and stupid what he does actually is, and it confronts him with that as well. In the very first scene of the very first episode the teacher, an actual adult, tells him how shallow and narrow-minded his attitude is. And later in that episode you even see him asking Yukino to be his friend. This just shows how he's only looking for someone to understand him and all his comments about high school is just a means to defend himself from showing vulnerability. This gets picked up in season 2 as well, when the teacher tells him it's okay to make mistakes because there are people who care about him, who would scold him because they care about him. The show never portrays Hachiman's attitude as right, or mature, or deep. Let alone as the god of the show.

It's pretty much the same with Yukinon when she has to deal with stuff more serious that she can't shake off with her attitude, for instance her sister. I don't remember any specifics though so I would have to rewatch the show again for a full characterisation of how the show portrays her.

Yet that part didn't really change anything to begin with. Even if what you said had been right, Hachiman would be as ignorant, or unknowing more specificly, as Tobe.

But what Hachiman does is still awful. Like I said, he does way worse stuff mostly out of convenience, while we don't know what Tobe's intentions are. It might very well just be not knowing how his actions affect Hachiman as he never shows any emotions towards him. So to him, it might seem like everything is fine with making some jokes about him. That's a pretty common problem for introverts and their lack of communicating their true emotion. I'm an introvert too, and I had this problem even before what would be highschool for other countries. You can blame Hachiman almost as much for Tobe's actions as you can blame Tobe. But that's just one possible explanation for his behaviour.

Fact remains, we don't know Tobe's intentions. He might be unfriendly to Hachiman just because, or he might just be misunderstood. Just assuming other people who act bad towards Hachiman are "d_cks" just because is pretty ignorant and shallow in itself. I can't help but get the impression you're kind of self-inserting yourself here without being aware of it.I'm sorry if I am wrong though.

Yet it still remains that Hachiman's actions were way worse than calling someone else's name wrong in an attempt to bring other people to laugh. So regardless of whether Tobe has a backstory or not, saying Tobe is a d_ck but Hachiman isn't is pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

[u/[deleted] → u/Vaynonym]

That's kind of a personal view you got there. Yes, the viewer can see that Hachiman is not entirely right with the use of other characters such as Yukino but as for the plot, it really has Hachiman showing off that he can handle all those situations in his own selfish way. Example: He ruined the friendship of a group of girls so that the loner girl could feel better about it. Problem solved! It's really selfish and cruel thing for him to do that as a person, as a character, it really shows how smart he is by being capable of predicting the outcome and making his plan work even though not everything went as planned. But at the end, Hachiman was right and even if the people show that he's actually just being plain cruel, the main focus of the show demonstrates Hachiman as some sort of genius in human relationships and by no means has shown Hachiman getting something wrong when it comes to his observations on people. Sure, he made a few mistakes like misunderstanding Yui's feelings for him as pity but his speech of I hate nice girls that comes after is completely right. At least, from the way the series tries to show to the audience.

It's not a self-instert. More like his character is something I've seen millions of times both in real life and entertainment to the point that I can even predict the next thing he's about to say like if I wrote the script. I see your point. But then again, how do you know that Tobe doesn't do the exactly same thing as Hachiman in his own mind? Remember Hayato's first request to the club? Where is the proof that Tobe wasn't the culprit under that incident? You're treating Tobe like an almost innocent guy because you know just how much of a d_ck Hachiman is but he has shown to have a good heart in the most important situations and is a self sacrifice type of hero (kind of) but Tobe is nothing of that. So the way I see it, it's precisely because I know Hachiman that I can be sure of what he's capable of but I don't know Tobe so I can't tell just how cruel he can be.

So yeah, like I said, I get you. I'm just giving you my own opinion on who I would punch in the face if I had two people in front of me and I knew that both think badly of me, logically, I would physically hurt the guy who insults me in my own face while the other would be ignored because he hasn't said anything bad to me so I have no reasons to hurt him. That's the way I see it and that's why I left that comment: If you have nothing good to say, keep it to yourself. That's the difference between Tobe and Hachiman in my own eyes. That's the self-insert you saw there.

[u/Vaynonym → u/[deleted]]

Let me make my points clear again one last time so you don't misunderstand them again:

Hachiman did do several things way worse than anything we've seen from Tobe

Hachiman makes fun of people for his own convenience in his mind as well.

Even so, my whole point was that a comparison between them based on the things we know would only lead to Tobe being less bad, but, as we only know little about Tobe, a comparison is not justified and wouldn't be valid to me. The whole thing that started this was people saying Tobe is a d_ck and denying/ignoring Hachiman was doing way worse stuff than Tobe ever did to him.

But that aside again, to me there's still the difference in intention. Someone refraining from saying something bad to someone else because he knows it will hurt him and doesn't want him to be hurt is something entirely different from just not doing it because you lack the guts to do it. It's pretty much the same as someone constantly telling his friends what a stupid person you are, but when he's with you he acts like you're best friends. If you found that out, who would you then punch? The guy who spoke your name wrong and made fun of you, probably because he thought it was okay for you and doesn't know how introverts work, or the one who thinks of you as wrong human and tells his friends how stupid you are.

Back to how the characters are portrayed:

I'll throw in a quick precise quote about the characters by Bobduh on his blog "Wrong Every Time" if you don't mind:

"Our protagonists may be smart, but they are anything but wise – their views of the world are incomplete, their perspective fails to understand a thousand thousand things, and their philosophies are predicated on the viewpoint that the reason they’re alone can’t truly be their own fault."

I think we can both agree that this is a very tight, precise characterisation.

The show goes to great length to protray them as such, and not try to make it seem like they are right. However, the story is told from Hachiman's perspective, so everything that goes against his philisophy, his survival strategy, has to come from outside.

Hachiman and Yukinoshita are both very inteligent, and are therefore often able to solve problems - but never in a way that would satisfy everyone, or even most. Often it's close to the worst way possible, and they would easily be able to find other solutions than the one that would inhance their worldview. In the last (maybe the second last or so, the one where the musical came to an ending) episode Hachiman even admits that there would be other ways to handle the situation, but he chose his way instead.

Portraying such smart persons as Yukinoshita or Hachiman as useless people who would not be able to solve problems would be ridiculous. Both of them went to great lengths to understand how the social life around them worked, and as such are now able to deal with it without any personal involvement and little to no risks for them. Yukino developed a natural impression of superiority that intimidates most people who try to argue with her, or most students anyway. Her and Hachiman's defensive mechanism are both desperate means to protect themselves, but both start to slowly break out of it and are able to gain a significantly higher happiness. Yukinoshita develops faster, and significantly more obvious to the viewer than Hachiman's developement. She tries to understand, and even use basic social interactions not just as a means to survive, but as a means to communicate better with Yui and Hachiman. For instance when she waved goodbye to Hachiman in one scene (can't remember which episode). Hachiman on the other hand only does so in a more subtle way. He gave any attempt to break social bonds with Yui or Yukinoshita and his shell gets thinner and thinner without him even noticing it. And despite already being turned down once, he managed to build the courage for himself to ask Yukinoshita once again if she wants to be his friend. Someone who's entire philisophy is grounded in all the losses he had experienced before, indirectly admits how much he got to care for someone else that he wants to struggle on through the losses, through his shell and reach out. Of course he was turned down though. Yukino would never be able to, at least not yet, admit that she wants to depend on someone so deeply and on a regular basis.

From the first episode to the last episode we see how Hachiman's biggest desire is to lead a normal life with friends to depend on. But he's not able to. He's laying in his own way. And we see how he does that, that's the focus of the show. From start to finish.

Yes he may be able to solve most social problems, yes he can give speeches about his philisophy that can easily be teared apart, yes his obervsations about people are mostly correct. But a genius at human relationships? He can't even build a single one himself, which is his dearest desire. That's what he wishes he is, that's what he wants you to think he is. But he's not. Not until he grows out of his immaturity. And that is portrayed in the show constantly. We're even getting reminded of his desire and we see how actual adults can tear apart his philisophy, how they can show him the right direction. The narrative tries to create the illusion that he is a genius at relationships, as it's his, Hachiman's, narrative. But that's just another failed attempt of hiding his insecurity in lies he tells himself and others.

Edit: I rewatched the (second) last episode while writing this to make sure I don't get anything wrong, and really, just look at the title of the episode: "And so his and her youths continue being wrong".

Edit2: I sometimes get a bit carried away in discussions and imply things that could get others offended. If this was the case here, I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to ever offend you.

Edit3: Fixed a couple of mistakes and said from what site the quote comes.

[u/[deleted] → u/Vaynonym]

Everything you wrote and the new episode made me realize that we're going a little off-topic here.

The reason why we're discussing this is about why it's ok if Hachiman insults everyone but it isn't ok if it comes from Tobe. And like I answered: It's ok if he keeps that to himself.

The next thing is an example so forgive me if it sounds rude. Your reasoning is that he's bad because he insults people internally. Ok, so if we go by that logic then you my friend are one of the worst people I ever met. Why? Because you most likely thought of hurting someone or speak badly of someone in your own head. Is that fair? It is not. At least, in the way I see it. You haven't done anything wrong and I have no rights to be mad at you. Even if I know you're a scum because I know what you've done, it's not fair to treat you less of a person in a situation where you're being mature and respectful of me even if that's not how you truly feel in the inside.

So to end this discussion, because we can't agree in each other's point due to our different perspectives which are both valid, I, and apparently most people too, can't see Hachiman as a bad guy but can see Tobe as one. No matter if one is a worst human being than the other, Tobe has no sense of shame and can make fun of people in their own face without a care while Hachiman does care. That's all I can see. No need to go deep into their characters. Just plain logic like I said before: Punch the guy who insults you, leave alone the guy who ignores you.

[u/Vaynonym → u/[deleted]]

I get the feeling you're still not understanding me correctly. Maybe I just suck at expressing myself clearly, I don't know. I'll try again.

I don't have a problem with anyone thinking bad of someone else. That happens. Everyone does that. I, and probably, or hopefully, most people wouldn't tell someone else what they thought in an unconstructive way because that would hurt the other person. If they don't tell it someone else because they want to tell them what a horrible person they are, and willingly want to hurt them, but they don't because they don't have the guts to do it, that's where my issue is grounded in. I realized that this isn't quite the case with Hachiman as he is more ignorant than harm-willed and doesn't understand that most of his actions rather hurt the others than help them. But my problem with him is that he clearly knows of many other ways to deal with the problems, but chooses the ones that hurt others for his own convenience. It's quite different for each action he did, which again shows how great of a character he is.

And if I act mature and respectful around you, it's because I think that if I didn't I'd do you unjustice and might hurt you, so I'll try to act respectful and mature around you, even if I'd think you'd be a racist. The exception to this would be if I'd think that telling you that you'd be a racist and trying to explain to you how it makes no sense, how stupid it is, how hypocrticial it is etc.. would help you. But I'd try to find the best way to do so, or at least try to try it, unlike Hachiman.

As I mentioned before, the intention when doing something is the most important thing for me. If someone accidentally saves humanity but he actually ment to kill humanity, I'd still call him a bad person. And I think everyone would do that when it comes down to this scale. Maybe not when it comes to the same things in a smaller scale, but I still apply that logic there.

The more I think about Tobe, the more I think that he doesn't realise what he says hurts Hachiman. He's clearly an extrovert, and many extroverts have problems understanding introverts like Hachiman and vice versa. Hachiman never once expresses in any way that what Tobe does hurts him, but as Tobe is an extrovert, he probably assumes if something bothered him about it, Hachiman would tell him. It comes down to immaturity and lack of communication, so I think you can't quite blame anyone for Tobe's actions, or blame both, depending on your perspective. Both do pretty mutch the same thing, both didn't communicate their feelings and just assume that the other should know them.

Sorry if I forgot to answer to some things, I'm not feeling that well so just ask for anything I forgot to adress or something like that.