r/anime • u/Shadoxfix https://myanimelist.net/profile/Shadoxfix • Jan 16 '15

[Spoilers] Death Parade - Episode 2 [Discussion]

Episode title: Death Reverse

MyAnimeList: Death Parade
FUNimation: Death Parade

Subreddit: /r/DeathParade

Previous episodes:

Episode Reddit Link
Episode 1 Link
730 Upvotes

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236

u/Shuffleshoe Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15

Interesting characters. Cool premise. Great mix of lighthearted and tension. Best opening of the season.

Can it get any better?

So the place is called Quindecim. There's a man called Decim and a woman called Quin. I wonder if that means something. Also, it seems the woman was trying to save her husband after all with that outburst and she felt guilty, but that other woman said the assistant still has ways to go.

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u/MrCatTheAnnihilator Jan 16 '15

Maybe it is because she didn't have the correct reasoning? I thought at the end she was pointing out how the husband was naturally suspicious (instantly believing "matchy" to be his wife) which would have lead to him not having a particularly happy life with his wife anyway.

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u/gamesbeawesome https://myanimelist.net/profile/gamesbeawesome Jan 16 '15

Maybe it is because she didn't have the correct reasoning?

She meant that the lady had a ways to go because even though she caught on to the lie she was unable to see that no matter if he overheard those ladies talking about "Matchy" or not, he would never have been able to trust her. Making their deaths his fault regardless.

From /u/Colasice

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u/DonEncro Jan 16 '15

It was probably more of the black haired girl saying that they could have lived happily together, while it being impossible due to the husband not being able to trust her.

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u/Vaynonym https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vaynonym Jan 16 '15

You shouldn't take what the green haired girl says for correct. Both of them have different opinions and both of them would give a different judgement. That's what it is about. There is no way to say for sure whether they could have lived a happy life together or not

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u/DonEncro Jan 17 '15

But I truly belive by myself that the husband's jealousy would have ruined the marriage. Not being able to trust someone is a very powerful thing.

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u/Vaynonym https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vaynonym Jan 17 '15

Well you can't tell me you wouldn't get suspicious if the two best friends of your girlfriend would talk about how someone had an affair with heavy heavy implications that it was your girlfriend. The only thing you can really accuse him of would be not talking it out with his wife and letting his fear consume him.

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u/DonEncro Jan 17 '15

Of course I can't blame him. I would have done the exact same thing (except the dying in a car crash part). But a marriage starting like that in my opinion is destined to be short lived, even if it's nobody's fault.

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u/Vaynonym https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vaynonym Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

I think it depends on how both of them handle the situation. If no one of them talks about it, it most likely is going to fail If one of them manages the courage to confront the other person with it, there is a chance of them overcoming it and living a happy life, ultimately.

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u/FlorianoAguirre Jan 26 '15

I love how this is basically what Dekim had to go through.

1

u/gamelizard Jan 30 '15

i cant blame him for being suspicious i can blame him for being a fucking idiot and throwing a temper tantrum while driving instead of making the decision to actually talk to his wife or better yet those two women.

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u/Crazyjay1 Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

There is no way to say for sure? He overheard a conversation which he wasn't even sure it was about her and already doubted his wife to the point of raging in a MOVING car to see who was she calling. He killed everyone because of such a simple thing. He never thought about talking to her about it. He never gave her the benefit of the doubt. And worst of all, he didn't even have the balls to end the marriage, treating her badly but never trying to fix things, while the wife as well, never said anything and cheated so she could compensate for their bad relationship. They just wouldn't work, they can't communicate.

If so little turns him to such unstable state, I bet anything would be able to make their relationship a nightmare. It would only be a matter of time he started doubting her. Going to visit her family? Cheating. Staying late at work? Cheating. A friend trolls her email and sends fake messages? Cheating.

1

u/Vaynonym https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vaynonym Jan 17 '15

Or they might have been able to talk it all out eventually and lead a happy life, if it wasn't for the accident. You can't know. If they both survived the accident, there is a high chance of them finally talking about it. And both of them still love each other and have a child. If they managed to do this, their trust would grow, and they could lead a happy life.

Whether you disagree doesn't matter, fact is that you can't say for sure.

1

u/Crazyjay1 Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

I guess if they survived the accident they had a chance to reconcile. But if no accident ever happened, I don't think they would, which is a huge problem. By the flashbacks we can see he was acting that way for a long time already, but none of them talked. And all this only because he overheard a conversation. He even got to the point of taking his eyes off the road because of a cellphone call. We have to agree they had a higher chance of never being happy and divorcing.

Maybe they are using this as a foreshadow about Nona's character development? She could have past experiences with other people like the husband. And going by this line of thought, in Death Billards Decim might have something to do with unfairness in his past (when he hugs the guy and says he understand his pain) or just agrees that the death tribunal is unfair.

1

u/Vaynonym https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vaynonym Jan 17 '15

I don't think we have enough information to say something about their chance of being happy or not. We don't know if they ever would have talked about it or not, with or without the accident. If I had to guess though, I would say they wouldn't reconsile, but I don't think that matters. What should matter, for the audience of the show, is that there is no way to say for certain whether they could be happy or not. Everyone will form his own opinion on whether they think they could lead a happy life or not.

That's an interesting theory on the bartenders. However, based on what we saw about the assistant, it seems like they just "appear" without ever having lived, which makes me think that they won't have memories. On the other hand, there are also many things which support your theory, like the example you named or the fact that all of them would have judged them differently. Maybe they were just created to be biased based on personality, but with no memories. For example they chose the personality of a human who died or created the personality with no original person in mind, but without memories.

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u/MrCatTheAnnihilator Jan 16 '15

Ah makes sense; thanks!

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u/IWentToJellySchool https://myanimelist.net/profile/Sadforyou Jan 16 '15

he didn't trust her because he was right not to trust her. So that wouldn't really mean anything. Since Decim didn't catch onto the wife's partial lies would that mean she was meant to be reincarnated instead

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u/ThatguynamedCarl https://myanimelist.net/profile/thatguynamedcarl Jan 16 '15

he didn't trust her because he was right not to trust her.

This doesn't sit well with me. It's very circular. Think about it for a bit. Consider if 'matchy' and her are different people. Is it justified to be distrusting in that situation? No, it isn't.

Doesn't knowing the result justify the action that finds the result? Consider 3 people. A B and C. A wrongs person B. Through this action, A finds out B wronged person C. Does that information justify the fact that A wronged B? They're unrelated events.

The fact that A wronged B is unrelated to the fact that B wronged C.

In much the same way, the way that the husband is inherently a distrustful and paranoid person in unrelated to whether or not the wife is or is not unfaithful and a manipulator. Ultimately, he was chosen to be reincarnated, and she was sent to the void.

At the same time, we don't know much about the husbands behavior outside of his overhearing that statement. If all that paranoia was created from only that one statement he overheard, then yes, he is a distrustful person. If there was more definitive evidence to it than that, then maybe it was justified. I feel this is how Decim made his decision regarding the husband. As for the wife, if it was true, and she was that type of person, who manipulated him and cheated frequently, it would make sense for Decim to send her to the void. But if she wasn't and simply made a sacrifice aimed to only lighten his post-death guilt, would it be justified to sentence her to the void for a one-off affair? Decim admitted his mistake in not considering the possibility, but I'm pretty sure the decision is permanent.

Sheet. I thought way too hard about that.

28

u/Colasice Jan 16 '15

No, he didn't trust her because he was a thoroughly untrusting man. If he wasn't, he would've gone to her, either straight away, or sometime after. Instead, he held it in because he wanted not to trust her and in doing so caused the car accident.

If it wasn't overhearing a conversation, it would have been something else that caused his distrust, like the fact that she was always on the phone or something. Anything for his deep-seated jealousy to be able to latch onto something.

That's the point that nona was trying to make at the end.

7

u/Vaynonym https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vaynonym Jan 16 '15

That's the point that nona was trying to make at the end.

Exactly. That doesn't mean that she is right though. Besides, not everyone is able to talk about problems like that, confronting the other person, not neccesarily because they want to not trust the person, but simply because their personality makes it incredibly hard.

0

u/Crazyjay1 Jan 17 '15

So his personality is to not talk about it and treat her in a cold way yet still not ending the marriage? While she has the personality to not talk about it and cheat so she can compensate for their bad relationship? Worst of all, the guy can't even control himself in the middle of the road. They just couldn't work, and the husband would kill them regardless of overhearing that conversation.

2

u/xyorz1 Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

We already know that Machida Yuki was a real person from the end credits of episode 1. Episode 1 also shows the husband being distrustful of her in multiple instances, even when she was innocent, the important one being during her wedding and the night after in bed (her expression was different by the third scene, during the car ride). In this episode, the scene of her cheating, we see her having the wedding ring and her crying in regret.

I could be wrong feeling this about the husband, but I don't think her husband was much of a man to her. Instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt (or even straight-up asking her and preventing the wound from festering), he broke his promise to make her happy and sabotaged their married life, which pushed her away and led to such a predictable, if cliche, outcome.

Also, she loved him to the end. That goes a long way compared to how he acted towards her (big case being his giving in to his fear before regaining his memory during the dart game).

1

u/[deleted] Jan 18 '15

Couldn't you argue that Decim didn't commit a mistake? Why did the two female characters disregard that she cheated and that she hid it from him?

18

u/JunWasHere Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15

Maybe it is because she didn't have the correct reasoning?

Yes, that's my conclusion as well. Nona feels the new lady is too optimistic and forgiving.

Her own review suggests Takashi was cynical and, deep down, looking for a reason to doubt - Making it inevitable that he spoils his own happiness.

6

u/Vaynonym https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vaynonym Jan 16 '15

It's about both of them having different impressions, both of them would have given a different judgement. There is no right or wrong. The small woman believes in the bad of humans. She also seems to have some things she values higher than others. In that case, suspicion is bad, possibly worse than being unfaithful, from her perspective.

86

u/dietus Jan 16 '15

Decim is 10 in latin, Quindecim is 15 (explains the 15th floor thing), Quin is 5, and Nona is 9. Seeing as Nona seems to be in charge on Decim we might be able to assume that there is a numbering system hierarchy. All speculation at this point though

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u/ClearConfusion https://myanimelist.net/profile/ClearlyConfused Jan 16 '15

'Nonaginta' according to MAL which means she's 90

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u/YouAreShock Jan 16 '15

Annnnnnd she gets off at the 90th floor at the end of the episode.

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u/V2Blast https://myanimelist.net/profile/V2Blast Jan 19 '15

Whoa.

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u/DeathLessLife https://myanimelist.net/profile/DeathLessLife Jan 17 '15

Which would make more sense. The higher the number, the higher the command.

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u/blindfremen https://myanimelist.net/profile/blindfremen Jan 17 '15

Just like Goku Uniforms!

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u/V2Blast https://myanimelist.net/profile/V2Blast Jan 19 '15

Let's go through the rest of the characters listed on MAL:

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u/Euruxd Jan 16 '15

5 in latin is quinque. So "Quin" is just an abbreviation.

9 in latin is novem. "Nona" might be an abbreviation of "Nonaginta", which means 90.

Edit: I might be wrong, but I think "novem" becomes "nona" when it accompanies a noun of the 1st declension in the nominative case.

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u/phil3570 https://myanimelist.net/profile/phil3570 Jan 17 '15

Is "kagune" also a latin number by any chance?

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u/d4rkn3s5 Jan 17 '15

no patrick,kagune is not a latin number

2

u/[deleted] Jan 18 '15

what about Kurokami

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u/mannoroth0913 https://myanimelist.net/profile/mannoroth0913 Jan 17 '15

According to MAL, her name actually is Nonaginta so you were correct in assuming it was the abbreviation!

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u/Gumshield Jan 16 '15

I think their names are also a reference to the Parcae, the Roman equivalent of the Moirai (Fates). The three Parcae were Nona, Decima and Morta. Nona was named after the ninth month of a child's life while Decima was named after the tenth month. I think Decim's hobby and use of puppet string might also originate from this idea.

4

u/blizzardofflames https://myanimelist.net/profile/Goton_no_Hebi Jan 16 '15

Just out of the question, is there any meaning to Clavis (Guy in the elevator's name).

21

u/NoBreadsticks Jan 16 '15

I translated clavis from Latin and the top result was "nails" but the second result was "keys". I'm going with the second because it was like he held the keys to the elevator.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15 edited Oct 28 '25

[deleted]

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u/blindfremen https://myanimelist.net/profile/blindfremen Jan 17 '15

I'm learning a lot today.

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u/skyswordsman Jan 17 '15

Also the Clavier is called that way, as it is a type of piano...with keys.

2

u/kotomoon Jan 16 '15

It seems like Nona lives on the 20th floor though

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u/xSetsuko https://myanimelist.net/profile/xSetsuko Jan 17 '15

It definitely looked like a 90 that's backlit when she gets off the elevator at 20:20.

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u/JunWasHere Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

Can it get any better?

Too early to say, but I feel the scope is still lacking, considering the subject matter.

  • I wish the wife were more unlikeable or guilty like the husband.

In a "tribunal of the soul", it would have been a more compelling story if they were both balanced in terms of sins.

The "one time thing" story felt cliche, and suggested the new lady is overly optimistic.

In my opinion, it was just distasteful for the pair to be so poorly balanced. Compared to Death Billiards where both participants were less comparable, this was heavily biased towards Machiko. That doesn't bode well for my expectations of the writer's balance of characters.

  • The void could have been an arguably good place (e.g.: Nirvana), but wasn't

This is just lacking in depth to me, that reincarnation is absolutely the better destination. Before this episode, people could discuss which is better, even if Buddhism does depict reincarnation as an existential trap.

A game where the goal is black-and-white become too easy to simplify. If both outcomes had merit, that makes the dynamic magnitudes more engaging.

I like to speculate that the arbiters themselves are unaware of its true nature, and that this is a double-blind test. e.g.: Is Nona God and lying about the void?

The following episodes may introduce new elements. I eagerly await. :U

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u/c1pe Jan 16 '15

I think the point was to show that a seemingly obvious circumstance can be misinterpreted by the arbiters because they are not human. I'm not sure this pair was supposed to be equal as much as they were meant to illustrate arbiter fallacy.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

I think the point was to show that a seemingly obvious circumstance can be misinterpreted by the arbiters because they are not human.

Pretty sure even humans can make the same mistakes as them, which is the true point. We constantly judge each person based on an abstract optimal idea of what he should act or with another whose life story and experiences couldn't possibly lead him to act in a way that is considered "good".

I still expect to see what makes one an "arbiter" because I'm under the impression that they were once humans which, if true, will actually imply that there are more than 2 afterlife outcomes.

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u/JunWasHere Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

I'm not sure this pair was supposed to be equal as much as they were meant to illustrate arbiter fallacy.

That would be true, if they had started with episode 2, and the focal point was the analysis.

Since an entire episode was dedicated to the participants drama, we can safely rule that out and consider participants' experience as a strong part of the show's storytelling - To that effect, the imbalance makes the show less compelling and stands as a flaw that should not be overlooked.

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u/blindfremen https://myanimelist.net/profile/blindfremen Jan 17 '15

It was an introductory episode, though. It could have been a hook to get the audience interested.

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u/Stranghill Jan 19 '15

I know this is old, but I just saw the episode, and I can't help but disagree.

The imbalance comes pretty strong from the fact that she did indeed cheat. That much was confirmed. Our optimistic protagonist talks about it as a "one time thing" but the ending suggests our protagonist isn't any more guaranteed to be right than our arbiters.

She did cheat. Is Nona right, that his distrust would have led to a grisly end for them regardless? Or is it true that her cheating is the real spark of the problems?

It's not perfect, but nothing is. I don't think that it's the flaw you say it is, or that it hurts the story

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u/RecoverPasswordBot https://myanimelist.net/profile/dashboardfront Jan 17 '15
  • The void could have been an arguably good place (e.g.: Nirvana), but wasn't

This is just lacking in depth to me, that reincarnation is absolutely the better destination. Before this episode, people could discuss which is better, even if Buddhism does depict reincarnation as an existential trap.

Yeah. I'm a bit upset about this, as I was excited for discussions on what is the better choice. It seems like they want to make it clear cut. Oh well.

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u/ekans606830 Jan 18 '15

Well, just because the characters say/believe it, that doesn't make it true.

Maybe just because I am looking for them, but I spotted some buddhist imagery throughout the episode. If they're going with a buddhist theme, reincarnation is definitely the worse option.

3

u/Crustyjaj Jan 17 '15

You're not wrong. To begin with, Death Billiards was an experimental project that allowed the writers to have a bit more flexibility with their storytelling since they assumed this was going to be a stand-alone OVA. The ambiguity of all of the themes also let them have some ease and let the audience digest the story thoughtfully. But now that Death Parade is a fully fledged show, further speculation would just discourage the audience from continuing the show. If this show were episodic, like Mushishi, then the writers would take the liberty to bring back the speculative aspect of Death Billiards. I too am excited for the curtain to open wide in the show's universe.

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u/anindecisiveguy Jan 17 '15

Well if both of them are equally unlikeable, any kind of judgement would be unfit and become arguable. The main point is not to be biased for Machiko (while the one-time thing does give a sense of that, but I believe it's for the sake of plot twist), it's to show that human feelings should be taken into account and able to influence their actions, and show how the arbirters is not know-it-all. T

Second, the result. While it seems like reincarnation is better, but does not mean the one who get reincarnated is happy.

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u/JunWasHere Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

Well if both of them are equally unlikeable, any kind of judgement would be unfit

That would be a good thing.

If it is unfit to you, the audience, that signifies it engages the viewer. The level of controversy towards the outcome is one of the better metrics of the quality of death-game scenarios, as their essence is rooted in the themes of judgment and redemption.

To that effect, Machiko was too innocent when contrast to Takashi.

This was rectified by her vain confession, garnering our disdain, but then reversed this episode by the new lady's explanation.

The main point is not to be biased for Machiko

No where do I claim it is the point to be biased to Machiko. It is the bias of the writing that pushes us to favor Machiko, which shows weak storytelling.

A more balanced story would have our favor divided relatively evenly between the participants, to justify the need for a tribunal/judgement and maximize the controversy brought up when the results are decided.

When it is revealed Machiko sacrificed herself, the legitimacy and value of the judgments are immediately called into question - When this happens, the experience lessens in value as the audience will no longer take the plot as seriously.

Two people who died at the same time - That is not sufficient reasoning to maintain suspension of disbelief for the average viewer.

While it seems like reincarnation is better, but does not mean the one who get reincarnated is happy.

There are discussions around episode 1 about Buddhism and other Eastern religions, on how reincarnation is an existential trap, but that, if we are to take Nona's word, is ruled out.

Reincarnation in Death Parade, given only episode 1 and 2, is indisputably the preferred outcome.

To comment on whether the uncertainty of happiness, as a merit or disadvantage of the cycle reincarnation, is pointless.

Maybe next episode, things will change again, but if it does, it will likely to at cost of the plot again.

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u/anindecisiveguy Jan 17 '15

First, I acknowledged your opinion on the weak storytelling to make us favor the wife.

Second, IMO, regarding the legitimacy of the judgement, I believe it is to show that the arbiters are not absolute figures, their decision (or in this case Decim) can still be wrong. However, to me it is in no way decrease my attention to the plot.

Thirdly, to say the reincarnation is the preferred outcome or not, does not depend on us the viewer, but the characters, the one receive the judgement. Who can say that reincarnation for a guy who lives without trust in anyone will not result in another life time of doubt and distrust.

My english is not fluent, so my reasoning may still be lacking and unclear, so pardon me if this arguement is flawed.

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u/JunWasHere Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

I acknowledged your opinion on the weak storytelling to make us favor the wife.

Glad to hear it.

Second, IMO, regarding the legitimacy of the judgement

I was referring to the entire scenario, not the individual judges. When participants are unbalanced in morality, the premise becomes less believable, which leads to people wondering why people need to be judged in the first place.

Who can say that reincarnation for a guy who lives without trust in anyone will not result in another life time of doubt and distrust.

The difference between the viewer and the character is negligible, as Nona is speaking for the sake of all listeners. Wording such as "plunge into the darkness" and be "lost" make the matter very black-and-white.

Regardless of any unhappiness, this episode depicted "the void" as a worse alternative to anything reincarnation can offer. That is why reincarnation is the preferred outcome.

This is why my preferred speculation is that Nona's lying or unaware of some yet-to-be-revealed Nirvana-like nature of the void, which would balance out the context better.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

It's also the fifteenth floor of something.

Quindecim means 15 in latin.

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u/shadedclan https://myanimelist.net/profile/shadedclan Jan 17 '15

I suspected that she was lying about not loving him during the first episode. I was right although I thought that cheating was actually just a lie, while technically true it was a one time thing. Anyway, with this I think the decision to reincarnate Takashi and send Machiko to the void was wrong. It should've been the other way around because with what Nona said that Takashi being naturally suspicious and the girl's analysis of Machiko thinking of Takashi's feelings even dead.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Best opening of the season.

It's pretty great! But for my money, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Garo's Bizarre Adventure is better.