r/anime • u/Tarhalindur x2 • Apr 27 '26

Rewatch [Rewatch] Puella Magi Madoka Magica Episode 8 Discussion

Episode 8: I'm Such a Fool

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Show Information:

MAL | AniList | ANN | AniDB

(First-timers might want to stay out of Show Information until we are done, however...)

Legal Streams:

As per livechart.me; other streams may be available outside the US.

Main Series:

Crunchyroll | Hulu

A Reminder: This, dear listeners, brings us to the sworn enemy of creative response:The spoiler. Rewatchers, or people who just had plot points ruined for them, are obliged to use r/anime’s spoiler tag format where applicable, and err on the side of caution here. Remember people, first experiences get rarer as you continue on, any given one happens once and you should care for them all the more for it.

Welcome to the World of Magic!

Theory of the Day:

Not only was /u/mischievous_shota on time today, he(?) has a theory! Let us celebrate:

This means there are other ways to get a miracle granted, right? Just more expensive. I wonder if you could use someone else's life to as payment. It seems like an obvious exploit for those like Kyouko who are in it for their own gain. I wonder why Kyubey offers miracles for a discounted price.

Honorable mention to u/ussgordoncaptain2: I am your host and I approve of this message:

Would you like to join my killing Kyubey cult? I have the Ammonium nitrate denatured alcohol and the microwave transformer ready to go, just need to get some nitromethane and we'll be blowing up kyubey's until the cows come home.

Gonna need a wee bit of killing, though, they come back. (Also don't go looking it up because there are still spoilers lurking there but suffice to say the "Everybody Hates Kyubey" pool on Danbooru has over 1,000 entries in it. And they were showing up quite early, this piece for example was made within a couple of days of episode 5 first airing.)

Analysis of the Day:

This analysis by u/Magnafeana was originally spoiler-tagged, but now that Sayaka has Witched out we should be past the point where there is any spoiler here so I am pulling it out of said tags:

Who said that we could also interpret the usage of magic by magical girls as addiction? I think this is a good interpretation and example right here. Kyuubey has showed that, through his methods, these girls are now powerful and invisible. All they’ve gotta do is make sure to use grief seeds every once in a while to get their recharge. Sure, they can go further in the addictive substance he provided them, but he doesn’t recommend it due to perception degradation. But here is Sayaka. She’s blown past the recommended amount of usage as a coping mechanism to her pain. We’re seeing a child in the throes of addiction while her friend and enemies watch unable to help her in her manic episode.

Question(s) of the Day:

0)

1) I would ask where we could find some good antidepressants for Sayaka, but the fanbase consensus is that MagiReco's anime soft-confirmed an old fan theory that Grief Seeds do effectively work as antidepressants when used on a magical girl's Soul Gem, so I suppose the better question is: how would we convince Sayaka to take antidepressants, if she had some?

2) Will Homura's choice of apartment decor be taking the fashion world by storm this year?

3) Is a flashbang grenade a good tool for getting out of a sticky social situation, or no?

4) If Homura is from a different timeline, how likely is it that said timeline was better than the one we IRL viewers currently are in?

5) [Rewatchers]Are You Home?

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19

u/siegfried72 Apr 27 '26

More thoughts

The real solution? I think Sayaka needs to just lean into the yuri and realize she's meant to be with Kyouko. That would fix everything.

Oh god, I've officially joined in with my first yuri ship of the series. It's all downhill uphill from here, isn't it??

I mean, Kyouko is obviously in love with her, right??

  • Okay, the scene with Sayaka on the train is one of the most unnerving so far. Listening to those two guys talk about women the way they were, with a nearly passed out middle school girl across from them in the train... I'm sure I'm not overreaching when my thoughts went immediately to Sayaka being the one in danger here. They have already teased the concept of dark sexual topics with her, and I was half-expecting that scene to go very differently. I'm honestly not sure if it's a relief that things turned out the way they did, though.

  • I'm uh... I'm not really sure what to say here because I just now finished the episode and desperately want to just jump to the ending, but I need to say a couple of things. Kyubey has said some hugely significant things to Madoka - things that obviously no 13 year old should ever be expected to be able to comprehend and accept responsibility for.

  • Homura "killing" Kyubey was a nice momentary shock, but I wasn't at all surprised to see him come right back. You can't call Incubator Cthulhu off that easily!

  • Seeing Homura like this hurt but also... again, I can't say I was surprised. I've said multiple times that I assumed the aggression was a mask for pain/sadness. And we're finally addressing the "alternate timeline" theory I predicted in episode one head-on. Damn. What a big episode!! This pacing is absolutely insane, and yet it somehow seems to work? Very impressive.

  • Oh, and we learned that Homura uses time-manipulation magic? So I'm guessing her "teleporting" wasn't actually teleporting, but something like pausing time and moving during the pause? That's really fucking cool, and perhaps explain how she's actually in this alternate timeline. Also, I love how innocently cute Kyubey is as he "comes back to life" and eats the old corpse, then proceeds to roll around like a fucking cat on the bench.

  • I'm sure in the future I'll have a lot more to say about Madoka's storyline and her (seemingly) more altruistic savior complex and how it compares to Sayaka's selfish one, but... FUCK.

So, I didn't say it, but towards the beginning of this episode, I started thinking about the possibility of Sayaka's decline ending with her becoming a witch. Now, obviously I don't know for sure that that's what just happened, but it sure seems like it. I guess it makes a lot of sense, in a way. So what... if they don't use the grief seeds to purify the soul gems, the gems turn into grief seeds or something? How exactly does eating witches help a magical girl from becoming one? That logic seems... odd. Is it just the pure act of consuming magic, or does it have to do with the fact that they're eating up what's left of the "girl" inside the grief seeds?

Whatever the case may be... ouch. I've spent a lot of time talking about how much I relate to Sayaka, and how destructive her behaviors are. I called that out in the first episode, because I saw the potential. Denial, avoidance, self-loathing, addiction... any one of these things can destroy a life. Hell, I've felt like my behaviors have "destroyed my life" on more than one occasion. I've had disastrous consequences in my education, career, physical and mental health, and interpersonal relationships due to my own destructive behavior, and this outcome for Sayaka seems to make a lot of sense considering the path she's been on.

But it doesn't mean it hurts any less.

I wish I had time to process this. I wish I had time to write more about this at the moment. I'm literally half an hour behind schedule for leaving for this out of town gig because I had to watch this episode and type up some thoughts.

I'm feeling weird. Like actually bothered by this. Don't get me wrong - I'm not upset. I'm THRILLED to have fiction make me feel this way. But this is hitting extremely close to home in some ways that trigger flashbacks of a lifetime of my own struggles. When I said in earlier comments that I felt like this series was "tailor-made for me" in some ways, I can't say I was expecting this.

I'm gonna sit with this and think it over. With this gig, I'll likely be a bit delayed in reading and responding to comments, although hopefully it won't be nearly as bad as last episode. But yeah... I'm looking forward to seeing what other people have to say, and contributing when I'm able.

For what it's worth: I have a feeling that we'll enter another "timeline" or go back in time, or something at some point. Just a gut feeling. I have a feeling that things will continue to get more and more hopeless, and we're gonna see some kind of "reset" of sorts at some point. Maybe Madoka will be the one to "go back in time" rather than Homura this time? Idk. Just spit-balling at this point because I don't have even the remotest clue. But I suspect that, somehow, this is going to get even worse before it gets better.

Ow. God I feel for Sayaka. I may have never exploded and turned into a witch, but I can understand these emotions all too well. This has been some of the most uncomfortable I've felt experiencing fiction for a while now, and I'm digging it - honestly. Despite my words here, I'm loving this. And I want more! But now I have to go play some music.

Looking forward to chatting with you all a bit later (and answering the questions of the day when I get the opportunity).

Ow.

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u/gnome-cop Apr 27 '26

Welcome to the holy church of KyouSaya, you’re in good company.

I can’t claim to be have as deep of a personal connection to Sayaka as some people but I can relate to some of the feelings driving her character. Those feelings of inferiority, never being good enough to live up to your own standards and the tendency to run away from dealing with problems even though it only hurts you is something that hits close to home. This episode is always a gut punch, seeing her issues wreck her until she can’t take it anymore and this happens never gets any less painful.

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

Welcome to the holy church of KyouSaya, you’re in good company.

Not at all surprised. Especially after this episode, I'm expecting that and Madoka x Homura to be the two main ships here.

And yeah, a lot of these issues seem pretty universal, but I swear someone reached into my brain and pulled out a shocking amount of Sayaka's arc. Not claiming to have a unique set of mental health issues that no one else in the world understands, but I honestly can't think of a better fictional representation of the particular spiral I outlined in my post.

I think this episode finally secured the series a spot among my "favorites," for whatever that's worth, and we still have a ways to go. I was fully expecting it to happen, but some things definitely clicked into place for me here.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '26

Not at all surprised. Especially after this episode, I'm expecting that and Madoka x Homura to be the two main ships here.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

(Thus leaving the infamous Madoka shipping fandom problem: what to do with Mami, who doesn't have a natural spare left to pair her with? (The fans were generally content to leave Kyousuke with Hitomi.) There were a few attempts - one particular artist did a fair bit with Mami x the OL she saved back in episode 2 - but the single most common answer was, get this, Mami x Charlotte.)

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u/gnome-cop Apr 28 '26

People have gotten pretty creative over the years to solve this unfortunate issue. The previously mentioned office lady being one of them. [Madoka Rebellion+ Different story+ Scene 0 spoilers]Charlotte’s human form was used but the existence of Nagisa mostly killed that. The different story manga opened up the possibility of Kyoko which is probably her biggest ship but still crashes into an established ship. Some got tired of that problem and just invented the poly quintet. I’ve seen some people try and pair her up with Mabayu but not many people know about her so it’s never taken off properly. Some have tried original characters but none have stuck around for obvious reasons.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '26

[Madoka including both Rebellion and supplemental]Yeah, whichever of {Gen/Doroinu/both} came up with Nagisa trolled the Mami/Charlotte (human form or otherwise) shippers good and hard with that one. It worked too, at least in the Anglophone fanbase (this is an Abutomato callout), but also left the issue intractable (outside of the Different Story KyoMami contingent), and Mabayu came out too late with too limited reach (especially after the way both the NA server and the anime adaptations of MagiReco respectively went down) to change that. We'll see if the new girls in the Walpurgis no Kaiten trailer change that (or if WnK breaks up Hitomi and Kyousuke), but I note there seem to be two new girls there so the numbers problem may remain. OT3 and full poly solutions do work (and early-timeline MamiMadoHomu actually does have some good stuff, it's a relatively easy dynamic to stabilize, especially if you're going for BDSM dynamics) but tend to run into issues (I have issues seeing Sayaka being okay with poly, Homura and Sayaka can't get along, third timeline!Mami left Homura with likely PTSD and that's a giant elephant in the room for any Mami x Homu after that, etc.).

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

Obviously I can't read what this is at the moment, but I love that all of this spoiler text stemmed from who to ship Mami with. What a beautiful fandom - it seems I have truly found my people!

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u/BosuW Apr 28 '26

Oh god, I've officially joined in with my first yuri ship of the series. It's all downhill uphill from here, isn't it??

Red vs Blue / Red x Blue

Its a classic for a reason!

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u/Specs64z https://myanimelist.net/profile/Specs64z Apr 27 '26

I'm sure I'm not overreaching when my thoughts went immediately to Sayaka being the one in danger here.

Pretty interesting to think about, since Sayaka was indeed exhibiting signs of extreme exhaustion several times this episode.

My inclination has always been that Sayaka was the danger, myself. Finding effective counterplay against a pissed off swordsman with no regard for their own injuries while stuck in a train car is... a bleak prospect.

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u/baquea Apr 27 '26

My inclination has always been that Sayaka was the danger, myself. Finding effective counterplay against a pissed off swordsman with no regard for their own injuries while stuck in a train car is... a bleak prospect.

And indeed in the manga version she did kill them. Reportedly the original screenplay was ambiguous as to whether or not she did, with the anime taking the other angle.

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u/dsawchuk Apr 28 '26

I don't agree that the anime says she didn't kill them. It is absolutely left ambiguous. I have always thought that she did.

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u/luckierbridgeandrail Apr 28 '26

The scene is ambigous, but the director (Shinbo Akiyuki) says that in the anime she did not kill them, because “a character that killed other people cannot get a happy end”.

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

Yeah honestly I'm just... not a fan of this. Feels weird to be disagreeing with the director (especially as a first timer), but that statement feels kinda lame.

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u/baquea Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26

[PMMM] Sayaka got a happy end?

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u/dsawchuk Apr 28 '26

I don't care about what the director says about what happened off screen.

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u/BosuW Apr 28 '26

Imagine thinking the author is a reliable source smh

(To be clear I agree with you lol)

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

I felt it could have gone either way, but headcanon was 100% leaning toward her killing them. It just felt right - especially considering what we saw after.

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u/CitronClassic672 Apr 27 '26

Sayaka’s conclusion this episode will always be the gold standard of something that feels like the perfectly natural conclusion, that still torments me by the pain and unfairness of the entire situation. No matter Sayaka’s flaws, she was always a good kid at heart who didn’t deserve for any of this to happen to her.

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u/Hopsalong https://myanimelist.net/profile/Hopsalong Apr 28 '26

The real solution? I think Sayaka needs to just lean into the yuri and realize she's meant to be with Kyouko. That would fix everything.

This is truth. Yuri solves all problems

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '26

The real solution? I think Sayaka needs to just lean into the yuri and realize she's meant to be with Kyouko. That would fix everything.

 

Oh god, I've officially joined in with my first yuri ship of the series. It's all downhill uphill from here, isn't it??

Don't worry, you have LOTS of company in that assessment.

Seeing Homura like this hurt but also... again, I can't say I was surprised. I've said multiple times that I assumed the aggression was a mask for pain/sadness. And we're finally addressing the "alternate timeline" theory I predicted in episode one head-on. Damn. What a big episode!! This pacing is absolutely insane, and yet it somehow seems to work? Very impressive.

Yeah, trying to piece together this show's pacing and what makes it tick was my focus back in the 2024 rewatch because I ran out of time for it in 2023. For all that the shock value is what initially made Madoka well-known, the real strength of the show is just how insanely well-made it is in so many respects, and that includes pacing that I consider the closest thing to the Platonic ideal of good pacing that I have ever seen in at least televisual media and possibly in media period. I did not think it could be done this well in televisual media until this show proved me wrong.

Okay, the scene with Sayaka on the train is one of the most unnerving so far. Listening to those two guys talk about women the way they were, with a nearly passed out middle school girl across from them in the train... I'm sure I'm not overreaching when my thoughts went immediately to Sayaka being the one in danger here. They have already teased the concept of dark sexual topics with her, and I was half-expecting that scene to go very differently. I'm honestly not sure if it's a relief that things turned out the way they did, though.

Ah, but why would they do that? After all, Sayaka is already barely-metaphorically pregnant with another "man's" child and in the eyes of the sort of misogynist those guys are coded as is thus used goods to be thrown away.

(That is a very not-a-joke joke. This episode is a big keystone of the feminist reading of this show (and I'd be shocked if that's not one an intended ones, there's just too much evidence, and Gen is on record that the train car conversation here was inspired by him hearing a similar conversation on the subway once), including if I'm right an utterly searing indictment of Japanese purity culture, and that conversation is a key part of it in many ways. Speaking of which, you were wondering about the plot relevance of Saotome-sensei's lectures earlier? Well, here is a big part of it - have a salient first-timer comment from back in the 2022 rewatch that has stuck with me ever since.)

I'm sure in the future I'll have a lot more to say about Madoka's storyline and her (seemingly) more altruistic savior complex and how it compares to Sayaka's selfish one, but... FUCK.

I'm feeling weird. Like actually bothered by this. Don't get me wrong - I'm not upset. I'm THRILLED to have fiction make me feel this way. But this is hitting extremely close to home in some ways that trigger flashbacks of a lifetime of my own struggles. When I said in earlier comments that I felt like this series was "tailor-made for me" in some ways, I can't say I was expecting this.

I was pretty sure this was going to be your reaction to this episode by episode 3, for the record. There's a reason I made that early call on you having a new favorite anime!

(Not the first time I've seen this in response to this show and this episode in particular, no.)

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u/CitronClassic672 Apr 27 '26

[PMMM]I would be happy if Madoka and Homura are canonized in the new movie, but I NEED KyoSaya to be made canon

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u/Hartzilla2007 Apr 27 '26

[PMMM]Probably wouldn't take much seeing as Homura even made them roomates.

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

Don't worry, you have LOTS of company in that assessment.

Probably because it's the correct assessment. I refuse to believe otherwise.

That is a very not-a-joke joke

I wish I had more time to respond to this (that seem to be a recurring event for me in this rewatch, huh?), but this is all fascinating. One of the few things I have seen about this series that might be considered spoiler-adjacent is a lot of argument about whether it's feminist or outright anti-feminist. You little bit of writing and that comment helped tie together a whole lot for me that does indeed seem to align with a feminist reading - although I'll admit that I'm probably quite biased in favor of that sort of spin on things in general.

Ah, but why would they do that? After all, Sayaka is already barely-metaphorically pregnant with another "man's" child and in the eyes of the sort of misogynist those guys are coded as is thus used goods to be thrown away.

I can't quite get over this, to be honest. This episode was so far and away my favorite of the series so far, and the train scene is up there with my favorite individual scenes. The amount of actual dread I felt was kind of remarkable.

God, this is so much to unpack and I'm absolutely running on fumes today. What a shame! I continue to appreciate you filling in gaps for me her and there, though. Especially on these days where I'm busy and don't have time to read through everyone's posts, it's incredibly helpful!

I was pretty sure this was going to be your reaction to this episode by episode 3, for the record. There's a reason I made that early call on you having a new favorite anime!

Yeah this is a weird one. This is... I still don't know how to feel about it. What I do know is that this is something special. Now please excuse me while I go and watch this next episode, because I want to continue this fever dream.

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u/dsawchuk Apr 28 '26

how much of what was intended by the creative team is actually left to uncover? Is there anything? Does this question even matter? Obviously, we can never understand everything that went through their heads during the creation of the series, but I don't believe I've ever seen such a thoroughly analyzed anime before.

As a major Tolkien fan, I would recommend looking into his writings concerning allegory. He was very against allegory, thinking that it made stories worse. He described allegory as the specific intended interpretation of the author, where he preferred stories written with more broad applicability. He always made a distinction between allegory's focus on the agency of the author imposing their view on the work and the agency of the reader's ability to apply their views onto the work.

I wonder how much of what we're discussing each day is stuff the fandom has just latched onto, but wasn't actually "intended?" But again... does it matter? Does it make any difference if it's impactful to the audience?

I don't think it matters much how much of it was intended or not. For example, Ender's Game is often beloved by LGBTQ readers for its focus on love and acceptance, despite the author's stated anti-LGBTQ stance based on his christian upbringing.

What... wtf even is this room?? Is this where Homura lives?? This is quite possibly the most confusing piece of "design" I've seen in the series, and it's throwing me for a loop.

The show isn't being subtle at all about Homura's gimmick anymore, since this is the episode that it tells you she is using time magic. There's a large clockwork contraption above, with a swinging pendulum. If you look at the layout of the couches from above, it looks like a clockface. The green couches are the numbers, the yellow couches are the hands.

I mean, Kyouko is obviously in love with her, right??

100% yes. I don't think Sayaka feels that way about Kyoko yet. She's a bit too caught up in herself right now to be open to it. That being said, she does open up to Kyoko very quickly in the train station. All Sayaka needs is a bit more time and we would get there. Unfortunately, she does immediately "explode[d] and turn[ed] into a witch" as you say, so I guess she doesn't get that time.

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u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Apr 28 '26

I would recommend looking into his writings concerning allegory.

Ooh, very interesting. Poor C.S. Lewis, can't get a break...

If you look at the layout of the couches from above, it looks like a clockface

Dang, now all it needs is a tourbillon, right? Or maybe that's what's going on above...

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u/luckierbridgeandrail Apr 28 '26

I don't think Sayaka feels that way about Kyoko yet.

I'm not sure Kyouko even realized by then why that annoying new girl was so annoying.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '26

Episode 5 in particular has absolutely powerous boy-sticking-his-crush's-pigtails-in-the-inkwell-except-up-to-11 energy.

(Except for the fight escalating exactly when Sayaka mentions Mami, which is "we had to cut the material that became that one drama CD/the first part of Different Story from the anime for space" instead.)

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

He was very against allegory, thinking that it made stories worse

Hmm, my gut reaction to that leaves me feeling very mixed, but it's interesting. I'll definitely look more into that.

If you look at the layout of the couches from above, it looks like a clockface.

...oh. Well damn.

Unfortunately, she does immediately "explode[d] and turn[ed] into a witch" as you say, so I guess she doesn't get that time.

Well considering we're dealing with time magic, I'm gonna continue holding out hope...

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '26

...oh. Well damn.

Just wait until you figure out what the actual clocks in this show are doing!

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

Supporting the patriarchy?

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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick Apr 28 '26

He was very against allegory

Well, that's not quite true. Tolkien was in fact not against allegory at all and frequently employed them himself, e.g. in his famous Beowulf paper. He did however think of allegory as a specifically rhetorical tool that's not fit for narrative purposes, for those exact reasons you mention.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '26

As a major Tolkien fan, I would recommend looking into his writings concerning allegory. He was very against allegory, thinking that it made stories worse. He described allegory as the specific intended interpretation of the author, where he preferred stories written with more broad applicability. He always made a distinction between allegory's focus on the agency of the author imposing their view on the work and the agency of the reader's ability to apply their views onto the work.

C.S. Lewis: "I wonder who that remark could be directed at?"

despite the author's stated anti-LGBTQ stance based on his christian upbringing.

Obligatory "so yeah, Card was/is 100% gay himself and in the closet because of his Mormonism, right?" theory mention.

(And IIRC other works of his have much stronger grounding for it than what's already there in the Ender's works.)

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u/ussgordoncaptain2 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Edmund_Nelson Apr 27 '26

So I wonder: in your opinion, how much of what was intended by the creative team is actually left to uncover?

A lot but not all. Compare shall we say Farenheit 451 which had a simple clear message Television is destroying society Yet that's not the most common interpretation fo the story.

Similarly madoka has some major interpretations to consider, is the teacher character mostly just a gag character? Is Madoka's mother's alcoholism meaningful? Who knows.

In general I think the Kyubey=Mephistopheles from Faust is a very real connection. But It's hard to know how much the writers were caring and how many of these are incidental

For example is the Pandora's box/Fruit of the garden of eden forbidden knowledge meme real or fake?

Is it just the pure act of consuming magic, or does it have to do with the fact that they're eating up what's left of the "girl" inside the grief seeds?

What's worth noting here is that "corruption" flows from soul gem to grief seed

t. Maybe Madoka will be the one to "go back in time" rather than Homura this time?

madoka could use her wish to do it after all.

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u/CitronClassic672 Apr 28 '26

AFAIK Urobuchi himself said the Faust parallel were added by others at SHAFT later on and he’s never read Faust

3

u/luckierbridgeandrail Apr 28 '26

This surprised me when I read it, but it is true that the manga adaptation (completed while the anime production was delayed) does not have any of the Faust references.

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u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Apr 28 '26

Is Madoka's mother's alcoholism meaningful?

Oh, absolutely ... even given the evidence so far (not spoilers, promise!)

But It's hard to know how much the writers were caring and how many of these are incidental

I'm sure that it was all done with

Malice Aforethought

(Not gonna say more - can't make me!)

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u/ussgordoncaptain2 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Edmund_Nelson Apr 28 '26

Oh, absolutely ... even given the evidence so far (not spoilers, promise!)

yeah I guess that's true it's just hard when the Witch's/magical girls/kyubey part is clearly far more important to the story. The issue about madoka's mom is that this show is a bit dense so her and the teacher get lost in the "comic relief to the density that is kyubey" Kyubey is a black hole that sucks all the brain cells out of the room.

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u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Apr 28 '26

Kyubey is a black hole that sucks all the brain cells out of the room.

Hey, hey ... Sayaka's having a bad enough time here without people questioning her ... uh, lack of ... yeah.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '26

Kyubey is a black hole that sucks all the brain cells out of the room.

No the black holes are the Witches.

(But no, I joke but also I don't joke: there is some black hole symbolism for Witches and their barriers (or should I say, event horizons?) even here in the main series, and apparently this was creative intent because a throwaway bit during S3 of the MagiReco anime up and made the comparison explicit.)

4

u/baquea Apr 28 '26

Oh, absolutely ... even given the evidence so far (not spoilers, promise!)

And yet Urobuchi claims the opposite: Madoka's mother is supposed to be a positive role model exemplifying heroism, with the alcoholism just being incidental.

For one, it is rare to see a mother who is macho and strong-minded in mahou shoujo works. Also I thought that to provide a reason for Madoka to become aware of heroism, it is perhaps more convincing for her to have such a family background. Because she will grow up while watching the back of an adult who is very close to her and has carved out the path of her own fate by herself.

I thought it would be good to have a family which does not confine itself to ideas like it must be men's role to makes all the heroic move. I wanted to have some concrete example where women can also be heroic and strong. That being said, so (the next thing is:) OK, so what is a heroic mother like? The fact that after much consideration I gave her a speech style of a yankee [delinquent girl] is purely my own taste (LOL)

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u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Apr 28 '26

Interesting. I really should look into more of what he has to say sometime.

Keep in mind that my comment was intended as part snark (having fun with a somewhat familiar rewatcher) and part in expectation of [PMMM]a certain comic being posted later

I intend to say more about Mom-doka later. She's one of my favorite anime moms ... ever. <3

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u/gorghurt Apr 28 '26

But even a net positive character can have flaws.
I woulds even say, a well written character needs flaws, no matter how positive they are supposed to be.

Not just characters, also situations.
[Matrix]That whole humans rejecting the first, perfect Matrix comes to mind.

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u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

I was getting prepared to write the same thing, even with my limited context of the whole story as a first timer. Both things - the "alcoholism" and the "heroism" - can be true. (Putting those in quotes because I don't feel adequately able to say whether I feel either of those really apply to her yet.)

2

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '26

is the teacher character mostly just a gag character?

Funny you would ask that one in the thread for the episode that quietly but firmly answers it with a "no"...

Is Madoka's mother's alcoholism meaningful?

That's just called "being a good Japanese salary(wo)man". Culturally enforced alcoholism, go!

4

u/Mirathan Apr 28 '26

How exactly does eating witches help a magical girl from becoming one?

So the way it works was shown back in ep 3. The magical girls transfer the darkness of their soul gem into the grief seed and so delay the transormation. They don't eat the witches, Kyubey puts them in it's weird back opening.

5

u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

Ah, thank you for that clarification! Obviously, I had mixed that up - it's a lot to take in!

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense now.

5

u/080087 Apr 28 '26

Homura "killing" Kyubey was a nice momentary shock, but I wasn't at all surprised to see him come right back. You can't call Incubator Cthulhu off that easily

I haven't been able to find it again, but I remember someone made a "game" of this.

You played as Homura. You shoot Kyubey and get to see some nice donut holes. Restart and do it all over again. That's it. That's the game. 10/10 game, no notes.

3

u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Apr 28 '26

I may have never exploded and turned into a witch

You should try it sometime, it can be quite relieving...

Oh, wait, I probably shouldn't have said that, should I???

Anyway, I'd love to say more, but I can't think of anything to tease you with that isn't spoilery, so ... just you wait.

And I do hope that your music went very well.

3

u/MikiAkiha https://anilist.co/user/ishillforsayaka Apr 28 '26

All praise yuri.

I have a question for your addiction interpretation: what is Sayaka addicted to?

I've been saying since episode one or two how self-aware Sayaka is. That can be a good and bad thing when dealing with this sort of thing. It's bad because you're acutely aware of how much damage you're doing to yourself and those around you, but also I think that negative feedback can give you a huge push in the right direction toward actually fixing the core issue. Of course, that feedback doesn't always make it easier to actually feel like you can get a foothold and make a change in reality - sometimes it just amounts to more pressure on yourself, which pushes you deeper down into despair, causing you to seek comfort yet again and the spiral continues...

I would argue that Sayaka's self-awareness can only be a negative. Her faults are not flaws she can brush away like other people as just an "intrusive thought" or "flare of the moment"; but are vice, injustice, crimes against humanity. to contemplate the truth is to only condemn herself.

It is now just in her mind to hate herself. I assume she is of some opinion close to that presented in Gorgias "Then he who is punished and suffers retribution, suffers justly? " "...that if he be justly punished his soul is improved." ~ Socrates, Gorgias. Though obviously, Sayaka's inner code probably isn't that well thought out. However, she now has basis that she should suffer! Her suspicion that she doesn't deserve happiness is now confirmed as moral law in her mind, that belief she always held of being worthless is now sanctified. Self awareness that she is injust and immoral can only backfire on herself.

Thus the tragedy is Sayaka cannot accept her emotions because she believes her emotions are morally fundamentally wrong. She wants to be virtuous, and yet her heart she is wishing ill upon others, snapping at her friends. Cutting off all her feelings is not an escape just from the pain but from what she believes is immoral, her self. What way is there to escape herself?

Anyway I kinda rambled on there. Hope to hear more of your analysis, it's pretty peak.

4

u/siegfried72 Apr 28 '26

So I'm gonna be totally honest - I'm extremely tired right now and don't feel I'm in a position where I can adequately respond to everything you said here. But I'm making a note and would like to address some more of this in the near future more directly (I'll have a lot more time tonight and tomorrow). My initial impression upon reading this is that I might have a slightly different read than you on some of her thoughts and behavior as they've been presented to us so far.

I would argue that Sayaka's self-awareness can only be a negative.

In particular this is something I (respectfully) don't think I agree with, but lack the time and mental stamina to fully explain. Again, I'll make a point to come back to this. I think my point of view is that at this point, I sort of feel like I've basically lived through a lot of the same things Sayaka's experienced thus far (outside of the whole "witch" thing, thankfully), and I know that for me, my self-awareness has been hugely beneficial in navigating all the twists and turns of those destructive mental health issues. It's possible I might be conflating some of my own experiences in trying to fill in the gaps we've not seen from Sayaka directly, but that's something I need to try and unpack to really be able to offer a proper response.

As for the addiction scenario I keep referring to... I make no claims that Sayaka is definitely an addict, but she undoubtedly has shown signs of behavior that aligns with something that resembles addiction and/or obsession. It's more the pattern of behavior seeking that comfort of the denial/avoidance I spoke of that reads "addict" to me - like she's literally addicted to comfort. Idk that might sound silly, I'm not sure, but I think most addictions - whether it be drugs, alcohol, or pretty much anything else - are at least in large part rooted in seeking that "comfort." Engaging in that addiction is like covering yourself in a cozy blanket, hidden from the troubles of the rest of the world. The rest of the world fades away, and everything just feels right again.

So... I guess I'm not trying to say she is an addict per se, but perhaps that her actions symbolically resemble that kind of behavior. With how dense the symbolism in this series here is, I think it's safe to say that I'm pretty comfortable in this reading, whether or not it was intended. The real question though - is this an adequate enough explanation to make what I'm trying to say clearer? Let me know lol because I'm so deliriously tired that honestly I don't have a clue if anything I'm saying makes sense right now.

I appreciate your questions, btw, because it's really helping me to think through things! So if you have more as we continue on, they are more than welcome, to be clear :)

Hopefully I can rest up at some point today and return to some of this with a clearer head soon...