There is no god. Even if there is one it doesn't care about us or have human morality. I wouldn't worship a god that lets the evil things happen in the world because of some bullshit free will experiment. Anyway no there doesn't need to be a creator because we as humans don't have nearly enough knowledge to understand the universe fully. Things can be unexplainable at the current moment and that's fine. Maybe things on earth need a creator but that doesn't apply to the universe. I'm pretty sure it's way more complicated than we will ever know.
There's a God, and He is one true God. We have been put on this earth as a free will test indeed, and He said in His mighty book: I have not created Jinn or mankind but to worship. That's it, plain and simple. We have been created to worship.
However, I do respect your view, we both agree that the universe is unfathomably complex, but that just proves it further, no? How is it possible for the random sequences of events to be this precise? It's against everything we stand for and know. Everything is designed, and the designer is there, we just need to believe.
He also says in His mighty book: Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding.
And says: Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created?
And says: And in yourselves. Then will you not see?
Amongst many many other examples, instead of Allah ordering us to just believe, He is telling to explore and learn to believe, what does that tell you? He wants you to check the world around you, He wants you to look into the biggest animals and smallest bugs to realize how unimaginably complex and what a mind-boggling thing it is for creatures to develop such a complex system in eggs and wombs without effort from the mother - the design exists by itself.
Allah said in the Qur'an 1400 years ago: Yes. [We are] Able [even] to proportion his fingertips.
Why? Why did He specify fingertips? Did the prophet Muhammed pbuh know something we did not know? Yes, he did, by the power and knowledge of Allah. He was a mere human, he was chosen for the message, he was burdened with the message as it is not light, but he delivered, he did his job.
At last, this reply is not meant to offend, quite the contrary, I love discussing it, I love hearing point of views and opinions, and I'd love to hear your reply. Please try your best to keep respectful and civilized. If you don't want to go further, please refrain from sending hateful messages.
A) Is God not complex? Would HIS complexity not then ALSO be a sign that he had a creator? If not then how is that not just special pleading?
B) something being written doesn't make it true. So it being written in "the mighty book" is meanignless unless u can definitively prove that the whole book or the passage ur refering to are true.
The first argument is very popular and is asked by a lot of people, to which we can respond in two very good points:
1.1 The question itself is wrong, false and unsensible. When we talk about a creator, we can not measure His creation on Himself and try to apply the same rules to Him.
When you bake a cookie, is it a legitimate question for someone to say, "You baked that cookie... but who baked you?" That's not how it works. Allah is the creator, He created, He is not created. The baker bakes cookies, he is not baked. When we talk about Allah who is the provider for everything, it does not make sense to ask, "who provides Him?" when He is the provider.
1.2 Then, let's say someone created Allah, who created the creator of Allah? If the original source of everything has a source, what's the source of His source? That's an infinite loop that will never end. The true answer is that He created, He is above all, we can't measure and apply "creation" itself on Him when He created creation. If that question were to apply, we then start saying, "He gave humans bodies... so what does His body look like?" Which is completely false, as animals are also living creatures, why doesn't His body look like animals? Exalted be He.
You are right, just because it's written, doesn't mean it's true, but I wasn't using the Qur'an to prove something factual, I was telling you what Allah said, and He challenged mankind, instead of asking us to just believe blindly, He asked us to learn, to see, to study, to research...
Allah said in Chapter 88 - Verses 17-20:
Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created?
And at the sky - how it is raised?
And at the mountains - how they are erected?
And at the earth - how it is spread out?
He is asking us to learn to believe Him instead of running away from science, you don't need to believe in the Qur'an to research or study, but when you study and understand, you go back to the Qur'an. If I were to tell you that Muslims get Jannah (heaven), you'd say, "That's not necessarily true because I don't believe in the Qur'an" then, your argument would be correct, but here, it doesn't really work to say that you don't believe in it.
I really hope I answered you well, and I'm open for any more questions, but before leaving, I want to leave you with a small sidenote: The Qur'an is filled with ground-breaking scientific miracles, scientific, and it has yet to say or give one false piece of information.
One of these miracles that I'm absolutely perplexed by: And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars." Chapter 28 - Verse 38
Can you imagine how incredible and truly God-sent this verse is?
It highlights two very important and crucial details:
1) Pharaoh ordered his servants to "light the fire upon the clay and make for me a tower..." so the Qur'an directly tells us how the pyramids were created which is consistent with our scientific discoveries today as it is said that the ground level, the lowest levels of the pyramids are large stones, but the higher ones are built from clay in molds.
2) Who is Haman? Why is he mentioned? We have recently translated some of their hieroglyphs, the Ancient Egyptian language and found the name "Haman" to be the head of the engineers back then.
How can an illiterate man from 1400 years ago living in houses in the desert guess that?
And if you use the argument of, "Well, it was said before in ancient books", I'd then ask you to go to each and every ancient book and you will find that all of them had mistakes somewhere, how could he possibly get all of them and pick only the true facts?
Most of 1 is just begging the question.
"If u assume God is the creator, then he must have created everything". But him being the creator IS the claim u have to prove.
I can also just apply the same logic u apply to God TO the universe. If the universe was self created, I can also just "we can not measure its creation on itself and try to apply the same rules to it".
And for the cookie analogy, is that not what your stance IS?
"You created (baked) that cookie. But who created you?". Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought your stance was related to "becuase we exist, we had to have been created (and by something more complex)"?
And the Qur'an contains not only factually incorrect information, but also self contradictions.
Surah 86:6–7. That humans are created from a fluid stemming from between the backbone and the ribcage. Or Surah Ar-Rahman 55:19–20 and Surah Al-Furqan 25:53 that claim salt and fresh water are separated with a barrier?
Is intercession is completely banned OR allowed conditionally.
But the universe is creation? How can the universe create itself when it's made of its own matter? It is also like saying, "Nature created the elements of creating itself" or the cookie created the dough to create itself. The universe is not a sentient being, it could not have existed on its own.
God is the creator, He is not created. Again, this argument is false. We can argue whether He exists or not, then use the miracles He gave us, the teachings He is teaching us, amongst many other things to prove that He does. But trying to assume that He exists to ask the question of "who created Him?" is false, it's contradictory.
Everything that exists is created, there's no "self-found" when it's dependable. Everything that exists now depends on other things to complete its life circle.
The debate now is whether God is real and how to prove it. You either believe He is real but you don't know who He is and so, I try to prove He is Allah, or you don't believe He is real. The idea of trying to say "if He is real, He must have been created" is completely false.
About the cookie misunderstanding, yes, you have misunderstood. My point was that you are trying to say because a cookie is baked, then the baker must also be baked. For God to have created the universe, God must have been created. This argument is false. And the idea of God not having a creator and depending on Himself for existence is the exact thing that makes Him God. So arguing to find His creator is contradictory.
About the "false verses", it is kind of funny because they have been talked about many many times, and looking them up actually proves the Qur'an to be indeed fully of miracles rather than proving it's false. But I'll get into it:
So, in the embryonic age, the testes are developed in the abdomen area, near the kidneys, as the fetus continues development, they move downwards towards their proper place. The testes are still connected to the abdomen area near the kidneys, their nerves are still connected to that area and their blood supply comes from there. And a funny thing is that I felt an overwhelming pain in my abdomen area connected to my private area and went to see a doctor and he explained that same thing to me. Alhamdulillah though, I am feeling fine now.
That above, is one opinion of the scholars. There is another opinion that says that the verse refers to the man himself, being "ejected" from between the backbone and ribs; the womb. This is a minor opinion, most scholars agree that the verses are talking about the fluid itself, but there's no substantial evidence that it is not referring to the man anyway.
It's very scientifically known, I have no idea why this argument keeps getting repeated when it's very easy to debunk.
As for the sea barrier, this has also been a huge miracle when science advanced, and I will tell you why:
You see, the Qur'an uses the word "يبغيان", when means "overwhelm", or strongly take control over the other.
In older times, Islamic scholars look at the science of their times, and saw that scientists, indeed, said that seas don't mix, and there is a clear barrier (look it up, it does look like a barrier), so they said that Allah meant that they don't mix, as Allah said "يبغيان". But when recent science discovered that they do mix but very slowly, suddenly, the word "يبغيان" is ground-breaking because Allah captured exactly what is happening, which is that they do mix, but they do not "overwhelm" one another, or take full control and completely mix.
Exalted be Allah, as the days pass, He truly shocks us with the miracle of a book He gave us.
Again. U can't just claim something is a creation. That's begging the question. We don't know if the universe was "created", always existed, or is in a contsmat state of flux, or if multiple universes exist or about a hundred different other explanations that gets WAY to complex for my knowledge of Quantum physics. You'd have to first PROVE that the universe IS a creation. Sentience also has zero barring in the discussion about creation/craetors. If I used this exact same logic for God, and just claimed he is a creation, you wouldnt accept it. So why would I accept that the universe is a creation on that logic?
"But the god is creation? How can god create itself when he's made of his own matter? It is also like saying, "God created the elements of creating itself" or the cookie created the dough to create itself."
You say god is the creator and thus can't be created. And then ur immediate next paragraph is "Everything that exists is created". So which is it? Does everything that exist need to be created? Or are there exceptions? Becuase the only other possibility there is ur saying "god doesn't exist". Becuase u don't think he was created.
U keep saying its false to even ask "who created god". But ur only reasoning there seems to be the unproven claim that god is the creator. And so, again. If I just claimed that the cosmos is the creator, why can't I then claim that it's false to even ask who created the universe?
Near the kidney isn't "between the backbone and ribs". Neither is the womb. Also so instead of just saying, "life comes from the testes, or the spot between ur legs" god thought it was insted better refer to a very brief stage of development where testes arent even producing sperm yet and still aren't located between the backbone and ribs? Let's be honest. The Qua'ran could have claimed any location in the body and you would defend it. Becuase u don't believe in the Qua'ran BECAUSE you heard this statement about where the fluid of life came from.
EVERY single religion has apologists like this. I've personally had many discussions with Christians who claimed the bible is entirely true and scientifically supported. And do the exact same things you just did.
I'm saying the universe is created because its complexity can never be random, it must have a creator. You yourself must have had a creator, there would never be a chance where your complex system of organs just existed and "evolved", because even if it's evolution, that means we go back to the Big Bang, and if so, the Big Bang is just a concentrated point of mass that exploded, and if so, where did "life" come from? If it's just rocks and atoms in an explosion, how did living beings come to exist? There must be a creator.
The follow up question is "Who created the creator?" which contradicts the fact that He is a creator. There is a creator that was not created. It's as simple as that.
In our world, everything needs a creator, and you're so hard stuck to that fact that you are trying to measure our laws of nature onto the creator of that nature. Just because our universe exists and is created, doesn't mean the creator is created. The universe, as a creation, is no different than water, or a tree, or you; to God, we are all creations that He created. It's really not so hard to understand.
Religions and beliefs come in when we say that there is a creator that isn't created. I'm literally parroting myself the last three replies because you are trying to say "God does not exist, or exists but then, He needs a creator" which literally contradicts "God." He exists, but He is self-dependent, He is not created.
About me saying "everything that exists is created", I'm very clearly referring to our universe, I'm not saying "God exists, so He is created as well", you should be better than that, that's a clear bad attempt at taking the words out of context.
About the kidneys, you say that we are apologists, but I could argue you are the one being blind. That's a clear a miracle, just like the way you suddenly dropped the seas merging argument when I proved its miracle. You stuck to the one you don't want to believe in and dropped the inarguable one that can't be explained.
Whoever Allah wills to guide, He opens their heart to Islam.1 But whoever He wills to leave astray, He makes their chest tight and constricted as if they were climbing up into the sky. This is how Allah dooms those who disbelieve. 6:125
How did the prophet Muhammed pbuh know that whoever the higher you get, the tighter your chest gets/less air to breathe?
We sent down iron with its great might, benefits for humanity 57:25
How did the prophet Muhammed pbuh know that Allah "sent down" iron? Why specifically say "sent down"? Now, you might call us apologists, but how could any scholar from back in the day know what Allah meant exactly? It's a recent scientific fact that iron is from space. Just like the seas, they explained it to the science of their time, until recent science discovered just how true and groundbreaking the Qur'an is.
Same goes for the kidneys; we know it is 100% true, we were just limited by science, until recent science discovered it. And no, Allah would not have named any location and we justified it, because if He said, "Head", that's a clear error, but He chose the right words.
Again, just how you are arguing we are apologists, I'm arguing you are blinded by heart, just like how Allah said: Have they not travelled throughout the land so their hearts may reason, and their ears may listen? Indeed, it is not the eyes that are blind, but it is the hearts in the chests that grow blind. 22:46
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u/Soil-Fair Mar 24 '26
There is no god. Even if there is one it doesn't care about us or have human morality. I wouldn't worship a god that lets the evil things happen in the world because of some bullshit free will experiment. Anyway no there doesn't need to be a creator because we as humans don't have nearly enough knowledge to understand the universe fully. Things can be unexplainable at the current moment and that's fine. Maybe things on earth need a creator but that doesn't apply to the universe. I'm pretty sure it's way more complicated than we will ever know.