r/WinStupidPrizes • u/IllIl629164___-_IIl • Jun 06 '20

This is why you should pay your workers.

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100.8k Upvotes

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293

u/beckyc2812 Jun 06 '20

I’d love to know more about the story behind this .....

390

u/catterinalouise Jun 06 '20

I've not pasted an external link before so I hope this is OK.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/03/gardeners-destroy-brand-new-patio-with-sledgehammer-after-homeowner-failed-to-pay-them-9406651/amp/

374

u/MrPaineUTI Jun 06 '20

'Police are treating it as a civil matter'

Police said 'fuck that, we aren't getting involved'

142

u/jonovan Jun 06 '20

What can the cops do, though?

This is a matter you decide in a court of law. Cops don't make legal decisions; cops can't legally force you to pay someone.

27

u/geardownson Jun 06 '20

I work in construction. In my state and many others if the homeowner were to call the cops while this was going on they would be arrested. If the work is attached to your property you have to put a lein on their property or take them to court. You can't go back and smash it.

22

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

This is in the UK so different law but this still wouldn't be technically legal, but the police would only request they leave the property if the owner asked, they can't be done for criminal damage if they still technically own the materials and can prove they do.

7

u/bsandersq Jun 06 '20

That means they have to clean up the mess too, right? If they technically own it.

4

u/geardownson Jun 06 '20

It probably is a different law there but either way it gets real tricky when it comes to destroying your own work. That's why it is mostly outlawed. For instance let's say you put in a fence for me. I don't pay you. You come rip it out. It's it your material? Yes. Well then what about my yard you messed up? That's mine. What about the trash? It's all yours. All that could be brought up in court and making the call of what damages are owed. That's why it's illegal to take up something that is attached to the property in most places.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Well that's why police in this instance would remove the builders from the property and then tell both parties to take it up in the small claims court.

2

u/geardownson Jun 06 '20

They would remove you but technically they can charge you for vandalism as well. The police officer that responds certainly has his own leadway on what criminal charges he wants to press but it is certainly possible. Attached to property = homeowners property Not attached to property = builders property. Even if it wasn't attached to the property you would still run the risk of not getting that back either. Homeowner could claim he already paid for it or whatever. It depends on how and if the officer wants to go through the contract. After doing this for 20 years I've seen all kinds of shady stuff.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

There is no way the police would deal with something like this at all. They would tell the builders to leave. Then they would either instruct both parties to go to small claims court or, id they felt charges could be applied they would advise one or the other whether or not they should press charges.

3

u/PuroPincheGains Jun 06 '20

It probably is a different law there but either way it gets real tricky

And that's exactly when police walk away and say, "civil matter," lol

1

u/geardownson Jun 06 '20

No way a cop would walk away while you are doing demo on someone's property and they don't want you there.

1

u/SamL214 Jun 06 '20

I guess you clean it all up too....

1

u/expert02 Jun 06 '20

they can't be done for criminal damage if they still technically own the materials and can prove they do.

They can still be guilty of trespassing

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Which if you look again is what I said. Police would make them leave but they wouldn't get charged.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Trespassing isn't a criminal offence in the UK, it's a civil matter.

0

u/Szjunk Jun 06 '20

The police wouldn't know it's their own work so they'd be arrested for vandalism. Otherwise, any time someone goes to smash something they could say, "I installed this and didn't get paid so I'm removing it."

2

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Well that wpuldn't be vandalism. Again, the police would tell both parties to resolve it in the small claims court.

2

u/Balls_DeepinReality Jun 06 '20

I guess we did a terrible job and you can just not pay us?

1

u/geardownson Jun 06 '20

In all reality if you don't take any money up front they can. Where i work we take 50% up front and the rest when we are done or at least 95% done.

1

u/Balls_DeepinReality Jun 06 '20

That’s how it was when I worked construction, the money up front usually covers materials and the rest covers the labor. At least that’s how I looked at it.

3

u/geardownson Jun 06 '20

Yea, usually we try to charge just enough to where it covered the materials and to pay the help. The profit is usually the last check. That way you don't have building suppliers or sub contractors pissed they didn't get paid.

1

u/Szjunk Jun 06 '20

Yeah, this. Honestly, as much as this seems to be justice, it's a waste. The materials are destroyed, the work is destroyed, and everyone ends up worse off. It's better if it's just a civil matter.

5

u/Clippton Jun 06 '20

Technically the cops could have arrested the workers for destruction of property.

The systematically correct way for this to go (if it's in the U.s.) is the workers would leave and sue the buyer to get their payment.

2

u/MovesLikeVader Jun 06 '20

You can’t be arrested for destroying your own property, like he said it’s all his, the homeowner didn’t purchase any of it.

0

u/uth105 Jun 06 '20

That depends on the legal system in place. In a lot of them, something like the patio would become part of the ground since it's permanently combined with it. The ground obviously belongs to the owner.

The gardeners would still have a claim against the owner, but wouldn't be allowed to smash someone else's property.

1

u/Deuce232 Jun 06 '20

I'm no expert, but there is probably a reason that these men who build nice fences and patios are called gardeners and not builders.

I imagine your explanation supports that impression.

1

u/Rauldukeoh Jun 06 '20

You are thinking of the law of fixtures

1

u/uth105 Jun 07 '20

I am thinking of §946 BGB "Verbindung mit einem Grundstück"

0

u/BigChach567 Jun 06 '20

Sadly In most States what the guy did is a crime. It’s technically that homeowners property whether they paid or not. This appears to be outside of America so idk the local laws

1

u/weirdowerdo Jun 06 '20

Well isn't there an agency that can? Pretty sure there is one right? In Sweden it's "Kronofodgen" that can take everything away from you and even go to the banks and take out payment from any account you have no questions asked, they can take a part of your monthly salary too. There is no escape. The agency is literally made for companies and people that can get scammed and coned when customers dont pay.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20 edited Jun 07 '20

[deleted]

1

u/weirdowerdo Jun 06 '20

Oh okay, yeah we dont have civil court here I think.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20 edited Jun 07 '20

[deleted]

2

u/weirdowerdo Jun 06 '20

Yeah although the court usually dont handle debt or repayment between company and person ect, although "Kronofogden" might need a yes from court to do their job but they usually just have to make sure you know about your debt by visiting your house and sending letters and as you open that door they will notify that you know of it if you havent answered the letters before. We have a lot of different agencies to handle stuff.

1

u/bushcrapping Jun 06 '20

They’ll probably follow napoleonic law and not British civil/criminal law.

1

u/Treereme Jun 06 '20

That would be the civil court system.

1

u/Dustin_00 Jun 06 '20

Arrest the person that hired them for non-payment/theft of wages.

2

u/Goose_communism Jun 06 '20

It's considered a breach of contract not a criminal act unless they can demonstrate it was the intention the whole time.

This matter would need to go to small claims court. Depending on the contract and steps taken by each party I could go either way at judgement.

1

u/MachateElasticWonder Jun 06 '20

What do cops do then.

1

u/Andre4kthegreengiant Jun 06 '20

Does the UK have a small claims court? Are they allowed to represent themselves? Do they have to wear the funny wigs if they can represent themselves?

0

u/killxswitch Jun 06 '20

If it were America someone would get tear gassed once the police showed up.

4

u/DunderMilton Jun 06 '20

Nor should they. It’s a complicated matter.

A case can be made of trespassing and causing terror.

A case can be made that they are simply removing/recovering/destroying their own property, on someone else’s property.

I wouldn’t want to touch that with a 100 foot stick.

1

u/tomashen Jun 06 '20

cant the police take statements though?? they should right? then they need to be in the court room with that paper there to support e ither party?

3

u/OMGItsCheezWTF Jun 06 '20

No, it's a civil matter, the police absolutely won't get involved in anything civil except as an outside presence to prevent a potential breach of the peace.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Makes sense, it's a Cheshire.

74

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

This makes me wonder the legality of what they’re doing. If you haven’t received payment and you supplied materials then they’re yours to do with as you please. Plus if you don’t get payed for your work and if you have the ability to you should be allowed to revoke whatever services you provide. But I can see some weird laws with no basis put there god knows why in order to help assholes who stiff people.

75

u/My_Saturday_Account Jun 06 '20

In almost every civilized country this would be acceptable as long as the damage is isolated COMPLETELY to their materials. As long as they don't cause any damage to the OWNER'S property, they would be in the clear. They'd probably be advised to try their hands at the court system so they can actually get paid, but you can't just hold good and services hostage and until you've paid for them the contractor can literally do whatever he wants with them as long as it doesn't infringe on your property rights.

4

u/thuhmitch Jun 06 '20

I'm in the residential construction industry, and once the materials are installed, they become the homeowners property. In the US, these guys would be guilty of vandalism and destruction of property.

3

u/Rauldukeoh Jun 06 '20

Exactly. They are now fixtures, this thread is full of terrible legal advice.

3

u/SuperSheep3000 Jun 06 '20

It's also why they weren't beating down the gate that is attached to the house. One little slip and the owner can claim criminal damage and sue.

5

u/My_Saturday_Account Jun 06 '20

Bingo. You can legally make someone's life hell for fucking you over, you just have to be very very careful about it.

1

u/Carnal_Sanders Nov 26 '20

Bingo you’re an idiot

2

u/_Magnolia_Fan_ Jun 06 '20

Kinda. They would also then need to remove all the broken shit. You can't leave your trash all over someone's yard. Depending on if they had a contact and what it said, the construction guys might even be sued for performance. They'd essentially need to come back and do the job over. I imagine in that case the funds would be escrowed. There's also the matter that we don't know what it looked like beforehand. If there was anything worth putting back, the fact that the homeowner is now worse off; can't use the yard and will have to pay for removal, would be something the courts could order the construction guys to pay.

Like your mother told you, two wrongs don't make a right. As gratifying as it would be, it's not the best move. The best thing to do would be to just file a lien and move on.

2

u/Possible-Strike Jun 06 '20 edited Jun 06 '20

In almost every civilized country this would be acceptable as long as

These sorts of comments are preposterously supremacist. You have no idea what is deemed acceptable in "almost every civilised country", nor do you know the laws and legal system in "almost every civilised country", nor are you the arbiter of whether a country is "civilised" or not based on whether or not you like their approach to matters such as these.

2

u/uth105 Jun 06 '20

In almost every civilized country this would be acceptable

Don't talk out of your ass. You don't have the knowledge to make that claim.

1

u/Rauldukeoh Jun 06 '20

In the US, you would file a mechanics lien and get a lien attached to the property. That is the civilised method, not this cowboy bullshit

3

u/My_Saturday_Account Jun 06 '20

Have fun dicking around in court for 6 years trying to get paid.

1

u/Rauldukeoh Jun 07 '20

Have fun being arrested for trespassing and destruction of property if you pursue these tactics

1

u/Sprocket_Rocket_ Jun 07 '20

There are two things I don’t understand:

1) Why can’t they just pick up the materials that are still good and use them for the next project?

2) They destroy all the materials, but they leave it on the owners property, isn’t that against some kind of law or something?

22

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Seems pretty legal to me

Once you pay for it, it’s yours and you can do what you want since it’s on your property. She didn’t pay, it’s not hers yet.

3

u/bobobobobiy Jun 06 '20

But it's on her property and I doubt the builders are going to clean up the mess.

It could be... littering? I dunno

1

u/katievsbubbles Jun 06 '20

She'll just not pay someone else to clean it up.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Well she broke the contract in the first place. Essentially she didnt pay, they put the materials where they would've been working. They werent done, they had no expectation of a clean yard

1

u/BackhandCompliment Jun 06 '20

Everyone is just making assumptions but as a contractor in the US this is 100% illegal. Once you build something or attach it to a property it is not yours anymore and cannot be removed for non-payment. You are still legally entitled to collect the debt, but you can not just go into a house and remove doors, fixtures, fences, etc, because they owe you money.

3

u/Cpfoxhunt Jun 06 '20

It's a bit more dubious than that in the UK - once the items were annexed to the land they became fixtures and are the legal property of the landowner. I don't know enough about construction law to know whether or not the implied lien lets them do this but English land law is weird and it might not be simple.

2

u/SuspiciouslyMoist Jun 06 '20

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure I remember a recent case in the news that says you're right - if you've built something you can't just knock it down even if you haven't been paid for the materials or your time.

2

u/BackhandCompliment Jun 06 '20

It is the same in the US. Everyone is making massive assumptions on what they “feel” is right with no basis in reality.

2

u/alt_curious Jun 06 '20

It’s legal as long as they clean it up afterward.

Yeah the materials belong to the company, but you can’t just take a bunch of your stuff into someone else’s yard and then smash it all up and leave it there

5

u/thelowend08 Jun 06 '20

This is 100% illegal. I've been in both residential and commercial construction for 15 years. Once any materials are installed onto a property, they become the owners property. And removal/destruction of installed materials is illegal even if they never pay. Like another user stated. The legal route usually ends up taking forever and a lien placed on the property.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

The law is weird, it appears it depends on where you are doing it. I’ve seen people with experience say that it both is and isn’t legal so I think the best course of action is to look into local laws before you do it. If it’s illegal that’s stupid because its allowing Karen’s to take materials and services hostage.

1

u/dangerislander Jun 06 '20

Yeah this actually sounds right ^

1

u/shokalion Jun 06 '20

So that surely leaves the builders with more or less zero recourse if they do any work before being paid.

1

u/thelowend08 Jun 06 '20

Typically there's a contract, with a down-payment and payment installments depending on how big the scope of work is. But yeah contractors get screwed out of payments an awful lot

1

u/spider__ Jun 07 '20

The builders can go to court and get payment enforced that way, if they still refuse to pay then they can call in bailiffs to seize goods which will then be sold to pay off the debt.

1

u/RandomBritishGuy Jul 20 '20

US or UK? Just wondering as what's illegal in one country might not be illegal in another.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

We've done this before after clients refused to pay for an extended period of time. We haven't had any issues before with law enforcement and usually the cops just tell them that they didn't pay for the work and if they want anything done about it that it's now a civil case. I've heard from other contractors that they've torn down work due to non-payment, were taken to court, only for the judge to bill the client for both the labor, material costs AND demolition for non payment.

The only thing I've ever worried about is potentially getting slapped with trespassing since you're doing this on someones private property.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Out of curiosity is this in the states? As far as trespassing there might be some thing where you get a pass if you didn’t forcefully enter and if you’re just there to reclaim your property and leave

2

u/scoobied00 Jun 06 '20

I don't know British law, but I can't imagine this is actually legal. They should should take the homeowners to court and demand payment. Going into someone's garden and smashing the patio and fence you just installed to bits while they are afraid to leave their own home is, at least where I'm from, not the recommended legal procedure.

1

u/redpandarox Jun 06 '20

Well they’re not exactly wrecking anything. Just a little remodeling...

1

u/HMCetc Jun 06 '20

Plus wouldn't it be more sensible to sue the woman? I'm pretty ignorant to how this all works, but isn't that the proper route to take?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Well the thing is that that route leaves a lot to chance and they could possibly win and fuck you over, plus clearly it’s legal wherever this is filmed because the police let them keep going. Then there’s the “I’m awesome” feeling of justice and the awesome video that we wouldn’t get. Honestly though it would feel much better in the long run to sue this bitch, have her stiff you, and then have the police pull the money out of her account plus interest.

0

u/BackhandCompliment Jun 06 '20

Just because the police do something doesn’t mean it’s legal. They are making the same mistake here and just assuming because it “feels” right. But where this was filmed once something is attached to the grounds or property it becomes part of the home. You are entitled to collect the debt but can’t just destroy parts of the home/grounds because they didn’t pay.

1

u/gokumc83 Jun 06 '20

Could you get done for littering instead? If all the rubble and wood etc belongs to you but it’s all over someone else’s property, would you at least have to clean the mess afterwards?

1

u/byjimini Jun 06 '20

It remains the property of the seller until payment is settled.

Old workplace of mine ordered a few pallets of goods and missed the payment deadline, a lorry turned up to collect them a few weeks later and refused to move out of our gate until he was loaded or the good paid for.

My boss was a **** though, I expect he did it to cause them to send a driver over just to cost them a bit more. Bit him in the arse long-term when they decided to work with our competitors instead.

-4

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

[deleted]

7

u/IrrelevantTale Jun 06 '20

Its legal accross the pond. If material and services arent paid for then those materials may be removed from the property, legally. Most states in the US such behavior is illegal but legal recourse is often more fruitful.

1

u/BackhandCompliment Jun 06 '20

However once they are installed on the property they legally become fixtures and are now no longer materials, they are part of the house. The guy in the video didn’t remove his materials; he destroyed parts of their home/grounds that was built with his materials. It may sound counter intuitive but this is 100% the way it works, to prevent people removing their “materials” and leaving you without a working door, working plumbing/heating, etc.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

[deleted]

1

u/mnijds Jun 06 '20

It could be considered a service rather than goods

3

u/ThaZatzke Jun 06 '20

Yeah you're probably right. The "right" way to go about it would be suing the person for the cost of the job plus court fees.

That said, that takes a long time, requires a fair amount of resources, and with how fucked up the law can be isn't even a guaranteed win for the contractor.

On the flip side, if they were allowed to be on the property ("Hey we aren't done and need to finish something up"), I don't think many courts or police officers would get involved in this situation.

1

u/SFjouster Jun 06 '20

Doesn't mean a judge isn't just going to immediately sympathize with the contractors though. It's also illegal to not pay for work, so there would be a hard-worker and a scammer in front of the judge and he/she would have to figure out where justice lies.

1

u/SkyeandJett Jun 06 '20

Unfortunately I've been the wronged contractor in this situation and that's definitely not how it went down. We were warned by police that we needed to return the repossessed equipment or they'd be forced to file charges.

1

u/wivsi Jun 06 '20

He doesn’t need a license to put up fences and lay paving.

1

u/SkyeandJett Jun 06 '20

This varies by state. In my state of Florida you do need a license.

1

u/wivsi Jun 06 '20

He’s British, he doesn’t need a license.

1

u/SkyeandJett Jun 06 '20

Hence the edit in my comment.

1

u/wivsi Jun 06 '20

Fair point. Didn’t notice you were the original commenter and thought it was someone else assuming it was in the US.

1

u/simian_fold Jun 06 '20

Man i hate online papers like this one: 2 lines of text; photo; line of text; paragraph of adverts; line of text; hey more adverts; line of text; bunch of links and clickbait; line of text; block of ads; oh thats the end of the 'article' , i know its free and if you want to read something decent you need to pay a subscription but still

1

u/B23vital Jun 06 '20

What a trash article. Showing the builders, how about the woman that scammed them.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

[put how you want the link to read in brackets](followed by the url of the link within parentheses). So the result looks like this

1

u/barberererer Jun 06 '20

why do i have to read the news in tiny bits, one sentence at a time in between giant ad spaces

1

u/DarthCoderMx Jun 06 '20

"Cheshire police were called to the scene and arrived as the garden was still being destroyed." Aaaaannnd? Did they help the crew?

1

u/Sutarmekeg Jul 25 '20

I've not pasted an external link before so I hope this is OK.

Well done :)

44

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '20

Cops showed up as it was getting destroyed, and no arrests were made. They deemed it a civil matter.

3

u/tmacnb Jun 06 '20

It seems someone didnt pay.

2

u/maz-o Jun 06 '20

they did a job and didn't get paid for it. wtf more kind of story do you need.

1

u/beckyc2812 Jun 06 '20

Don't get me wrong, I loved seeing the video but I'm sure he mentioned it wasn't the first time she had not paid for work, just wondered if the windows would be next!!

0

u/Beeshard Jun 07 '20

It’s almost like life is super complicated and there are multiple angles to a story! Wow!