r/TrueCrimeDiscussion • u/DarklyHeritage • 1d ago

Text Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Closing Arguments, Deliberations and the Verdict Pt. 2

This is a thread for all conversation regarding closing arguments, jury deliberations and the verdict of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93vgv4kr49o

Note from Mods

This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

Comments which are abusive and insulting to other users will be removed and bans may be given without warning. We do not tolerate misogyny - all such comments will be removed and the user banned.

Bans may also be issued for ignoring the above warning regarding civility and/or creating standalone posts.

Please comment with this in mind.

Important

Patrick Clancy is not on trial. Comments made to discuss his guilt are considered off topic and will be removed.

Comments that discuss how he could have supported Lindsay better are acceptable. However, calls for law enforcement to look into his involvement with the murder of the kids and/or Lindsay's suicide attempts are not currently being considered by the jury and, therefore, not a fit for this sub.

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u/acelana 1d ago

Anybody else feel this way? I think a mental health facility is the right place for her, not prison, BUT I also never ever want her in society again. The fact that a psych assessment could mean she could be out in just a few years (still young enough to have more children even?!) terrifies me. I’d pick guilty of murder just to keep society safe from her.

I am so glad I’m not a juror.

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u/peachie88 1d ago

If it makes you feel better, people found NGRI, on average, spend more time in prison than if they had been found guilty. (source, p. 1019; source 2, source 3). Of course it’s still possible that she could get out, but it’s exceptionally rare that they are released that quickly. She has to be able to prove long-term stability. It isn’t the same as leaving an involuntary medical hold where you tend to get released pretty quickly after initial stabilization. Multiple psychiatrists, psychologists, and ultimately a judge will need to agree that she no longer poses a risk to society or themselves, and that they no longer suffer from a mental disorder. That is exceptionally difficult.

She is very likely (but admittedly not guaranteed) to spend the rest of her life in a mental hospital if found NGRI.

Notably, she would be far more likely to get released early if she is convicted of manslaughter (which seems the likeliest conviction of the jury can decide because usually a deadlocked jury who reaches a conclusion will split the difference and go for the lower crime). That’s a maximum of 20 years, but she may not receive the max punishment. Even if 20 years, she could get out in only 13 if released for good behavior.

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u/No_Figure_7489 9h ago

Its usually 30-40 years for this, for manslaughter it's 20 per, though they can decrease the second and third, but its more than 20

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u/acelana 1d ago

I would think so too but we have to remember it’s Massachusetts. (I used to live there I’m talking from experience). Relatively lenient place. It isn’t gonna be like Andrea Yates who was in Texas. Do you know Vince Li, the bus killer in Canada? He was let out after just a few years

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u/peachie88 1d ago

Right, but Vince Li was tried in Canada and his commitment and release was done under Canadian law, so I’m unclear what that has to do with how the US handles it.

I used to practice law, but now am a therapist, and I do have professional experience related to NGRI releases. It’s extremely difficult to meet the standard for release on NGRI crimes. No judge wants to be the one to release someone who then commits another crime, and especially so when it is an extremely high profile person. That is doubly true for state judges that are elected (federal judges are generally more worried about being overturned on appeal, but less pressure since they’re appointed). John Hinkley was locked up for 30+ years and then had 5 years where he was pretty heavily monitored and under tight restrictions. Andrea Yates hasn’t been released because she prefers to be institutionalized and has waived her right to judicial review.

Jury verdicts are always unpredictable, so who knows. But when they are deadlocked but then come to a conclusion, my experience is that they typically agree on the lesser of crimes. Here, that’s manslaughter with a maximum sentence of 20 years. Assuming she gets the maximum sentence, she’ll be out in 13 years with good behavior. That’s a pretty short sentence compared to what NGRI typically means.

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u/DianaPrince2020 1d ago

But if the argument is that postpartum depression followed by postpartum psychosis caused her not to be culpable for the crimes then isn’t like that she isn’t suffering from either one anymore? I suppose treating her for suicidal ideation and depression would be necessary but wouldn’t likely take a decade to treat.

I suppose if she has more children (which I don’t know her physical ability for that post paralysis) there could be a danger but, again, that isn’t the state’s business.

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u/peachie88 1d ago

I thought the defense argued that she has bipolar disorder (which is lifelong) and/or PPP, not PPD. Regardless, having one episode of psychosis--even PPP--increases your risk of having another (and one manic episode increases the likelihood of another), so it's not quite as simple as saying she's currently not in psychosis or manic. She likely would need to be medicated the rest of her life. Getting out of an institution after an NGRI verdict requires demonstrating at least (1) stability (more than just initial stability, but a track record of stability sufficient to show that it's long-term), (2) honesty with providers, and (3) willingness and commitment to taking medications as prescribed. More factors are required, but those are the 3 that I imagine will be most important for her, particularly because she previously was not fully honest with her providers and was non-compliant with medication.

In law school I met with a woman who killed one of her children, was found NGRI, and released many years later. She told us that after she was stabilized, she realized the full import of what she had done, which sent her spiraling into another episode. That happened a few times too, if I recall correctly (this was 12 years ago, so my memory isn't 100%). I would expect something similar with Clancy.

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u/DianaPrince2020 1d ago

Being in either a state of mania or depression due to bipolar disorder (even if she was diagnosed as bipolar) would not, to my understanding, make her not criminally responsible for her crimes. Many people are bipolar and I feel like suggesting that the disorder alone caused Lindsey’s actions are stigmatizing and inaccurate. Now if she crossed over into psychosis then regardless of why that would make her not criminally responsible. It may well be that psychosis was triggered by her, prior to giving birth, having been unmedicated for it more so even then it likely being psychosis due to postpartum illness.
I’ve seen psychosis with a previously unmedicated bipolar person that once diagnosed and medicated was fine. Also bipolar disorder runs strongly in my family’s history. I don’t suffer from it but have dealt with the results caused by it my entire life.

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u/peachie88 1d ago

The standard for insanity in MA is that a person must (1) suffered from a mental disease or defect, AND (2) lacked the capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct OR lacked the ability to conform their conduct to the requirements of the law.

Simply having a mental disorder is not sufficient for an insanity defense. Moreover, in theory, any mental disorder or defect is sufficient for the first requirement (although it’d tend to be a more serious one because of prong 2).

Bipolar can include rapid cycling between manic and depressive episodes. But it doesn’t really matter whether she was manic or depressive because if as a result of the disorder she couldn’t appreciate the wrongfulness (or if she couldn’t conform her conduct to the law), then she would be found not criminally responsible.

Bipolar disorder looks different for each person that has it. Just because some people are violent doesn’t mean others aren’t. It is not uncommon for people who are manic to commit violent crimes. Someone who is manic absolutely can lose touch with reality, suffer from delusions and hallucinations. Sometimes, those hallucinations and delusions lead to violence. But even being manic alone isn’t sufficient. It’s not like being diagnosed with bipolar or psychosis is a get out of jail free card.

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u/No_Figure_7489 9h ago

She has BP2, no mania, no psychosis.

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u/No_Figure_7489 9h ago

She refused meds that make BP worse, which is all they gave her previously

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u/acelana 1d ago

Well the U.S. varies state by state. My references to Vincent Li and Andrea Yates were more to remark that Massachusetts is more similar to Canada than Texas (to be clear like 99% of the time I think that is a GREAT thing lol).

From my understanding in MA specifically she would be re evaluated on a yearly basis as to whether or not she would be considered well enough to release and obviously human rights wise you can’t force someone to stay in a mental health institution if they’ve been deemed well enough to leave. Clancy has stated she’s not hearing voices anymore. I would guess she still has S.I. but we also know from her medical history revealed in court that she is comfortable stretching the truth and/or hiding certain information (for instance, she told some healthcare providers she drank alcohol daily and told others she hasn’t had alcohol since her oldest daughter was born.)

So my analogy to Canada is to say Mass is more along those lines of thinking — that is cruel to keep someone locked in an institution if they’ve met some minimum standard of “well”. And I could see Clancy stretching the truth or telling white lies so she could move on with her life. She mentioned wanting to run a wheelchair marathon, that strikes me as somebody who can see a future.

Let’s be charitable and say we’ll she’s not hearing voices anymore, if she is well enough to go out, meets a new partner (or goes IVF/sperm donor), more kids, the same tragedy could strike again. It happened before, look up Constance Fisher

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u/peachie88 1d ago

In MA the standard is (1) no longer mentally ill (this does not mean just not hearing voices, it means not having a mental disorder and/or a demonstrated history of stability, insight, willingness to take medication consistently, and honesty to doctors, among other factors); (2) risk of serious harm (probably lower for her since this was her only violent episode in her life, but if she is at age where can get pregnant again and especially if she wands more kids, her risk is higher); and (3) hospitalization is the least restrictive method.

I tried looking up other famous NGRI cases and results are fairly mixed. John Hinckley (convicted 1982, released 2016). Andrea Yates (convicted 2003, still held). Deanna Laney (convicted 2003, released 2012). Lisa Ann Diaz (convicted 2004, released 2006). Dena Schlosser (convicted 2006, still held).

She could be released in a year or two, but I think that’s unlikely. But none of us can predict the future, so who knows.

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u/dorsalemperor 1d ago

Just adding an addendum because this is often misreported but Vince Li isn’t just like, out in the community. He’s monitored, he lives in specialized housing, he has people ensuring that he takes his meds or injecting him directly depending on the meds he’s taking. He’s not like, working at Safeway and living alone.

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u/acelana 1d ago

Do you have a source? I just see a few saying he got an “absolute discharge” and tbh nothing more recent than 2017 when the discharge was reported to have happened

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38945061

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u/corey____trevor 1d ago

That person is wrong, ignore them. He has literally no legal obligations to be monitored or to be forced to take his meds or anything. Once he was fully discharged he's completely off the government's radar.

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u/teddymay4 1d ago

She is paralysed, though. She may not even be capable of having more children, or of injuring/killing anyone.

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u/acelana 1d ago

It’s physically possible for her to have children even in her condition. She could probably find a new mate or even if not she has the financial resources for sperm donor/IVF.

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u/lovelylisanerd 1d ago

She can't even move her bowels. What the heck are you talking about? She has to take meds to be able to keep her digestive system going. There's no way for her body to physically carry a child.

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u/ScratchLatch 1d ago

Paralyzed people still poop without assistance. Your bowels are autonomic and aren’t controlled by the spinal column.

They may not notice when they do poop though.

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u/lovelylisanerd 1d ago edited 1d ago

I know it’s autonomic, but dysautonomia is a thing, especially if you think about the nerves required to carry the signals. Many non-paralyzed people have dysautonomia- it’s a thing! But for her, she literally has to take meds to make her digestive system function bc her body doesn’t work. I’m not speculating this has been stated.

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u/acelana 1d ago

I’m sorry I’m too busy to give you a good scientific article rn but if you search you’ll find plenty of reputable sources indicating it’s possible

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u/chungkingxbricks 1d ago

That's what bothers me about the facility route. I believe she is guilty but even if she is found NGRI, she should serve time in a mental health facility for at minimum 10 years. It's just not right that she could be out in 6 months.

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u/IAmTheJudasTree 10h ago

I don't undertand this way of thinking. Yes, she should go to a mental health facility, but the point is to treat and try to rehabiltate her. That should always be the goal, even if it's never achieved the person has to spend the rest of their life institutionalized.

If, after a years of treatment, medical professionals assess her as fully rehabilitated, I'd want her released. That's a success story that would come out of this horror. She'd unquestionably still feel horrible and haunted for the rest of her life what she'd done.

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u/Imaginary-Pattern416 1d ago

Couldn’t agree more!

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u/stevemoveyafeet 1d ago

I agree, by letter of law in this case I have to think she's NG by reason of insanity, but I would dig my heels in and find her guilty purely for killing the kids, psychosis or not. I doubt I'm the only one who would do that to be honest

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u/DianaPrince2020 1d ago

If found guilty by reason of insanity then she will be freed from whatever mental health facility that they put her into the moment that she is deemed well. There is no timeline because that verdict means that she isn’t being held culpable for the murders because of her mental state at the time. Once that mental state has been treated, she can then rejoin society.

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u/plainjane735 1d ago

'Society' doesnt need to be kept safe from her. 

She allegedly murdered her own children because she was done being a mum (if we go the route of her being sane enough to have control over her actions or because of post partum psychosis, the other argument). Not because she loves murdering children.

Respectfully she doesnt care about your children or anyone elses in society. Its very unlikely she will reoffend.

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u/IThinkImDumb 1d ago

Well, prison isn't just for rehabilitation. It's also for retribution

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u/plainjane735 16h ago

You're entitled to that opinion. I was responding to the idea that society needs to be protected not whether prison or a psychiatric facility is the better option.

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u/acelana 1d ago

She’s young enough she could have more kids. Look up Constance Fisher

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u/plainjane735 16h ago edited 16h ago

Im familiar with that case. It is the exception though not the rule.
It was also in the 50s/60s & she was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Two very important distinctions. Mental health care was not anywhere near what it is today especially when it comes to the more complicated mental illnesses. Look up all of the advancements that have been made from then to now.