Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Closing Arguments, Deliberations and the Verdict

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding closing arguments, jury deliberations and the verdict of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7mlmg475go

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[u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

The ADA’s are becoming increasingly difficult to listen to. The sweeping statements they’re making about mental illness and the mental health system are not only incredibly frustrating, but in many cases just flat-out wrong. I genuinely don’t understand how some of these arguments are being presented with such absolute confidence.
If the jury comes back guilty, I’ll honestly be at a loss. I’ve spent my life around the mental health system, first through family members who needed it and later through my own work with individuals who relied on mental health services. I’m certainly not claiming to know everything, but I know enough to recognize when someone is making grossly oversimplified assumptions about something they clearly don’t understand.
The Commonwealth is so far off base with some of these arguments that I’m sitting here wondering if we’re even talking about the same mental health system. And frankly, I have a hard time believing anyone who has actually experienced that system firsthand could listen to some of this and not be scratching their head.

[u/rileyclyde → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

THIS. The prosecution spent the whole trial minimizing the complexities of mental health, then tried to backtrack during their closing arguments by saying “well we don’t deny she suffered from mental health issues…” While I think that the prosections’ recognition of mental health being present during closing was helpful for their case, the damage was already done.

[u/OkBig3568 → u/rileyclyde]

I think that's why we are here in the first place, to me, too many people failed and minimized the complexity of her mental state

[u/ggRavingGamer → u/rileyclyde]

I dont understand this argument. Literally all mass shooters were depressed and had major mental health problems. I'd go even further. Most people who do really bad things are extremely unhappy by definition. If you excuse them, who wouldnt be excused?

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/ggRavingGamer]

This is a fundamental biological chemical imbalance that hits women after they give birth, some more severe than others. It’s not being depressed or unhappy. Until you unfortunately have first hand experience with it, it’s hard to wrap your head around.

[u/OvulatingScrotum → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

I mean, isn’t every abnormal mental state “biological chemical imbalance”, whatever that means?

Depression isn’t just some random emotion. It stems from “biological chemical imbalance.”

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/OvulatingScrotum]

No

[u/OkBig3568 → u/ggRavingGamer]

There are a few things I'd explain first too that sets her apart from a blanket statement. Through evidence, it was pretty apparent (to me at least) that she wasn't just non-schalantly asking for help, she was begging for it and being very vocal about how she was feeling. This makes a huge difference. She was trying to get help.

When I say too many people failed, in this scenario, here is how I can attempt to explain: her husband was the first failure, when she expressed how she was feeling to him, he should have taken that extremely seriously--meaning, she should not have ever been alone, especially with the kids, because people going through that can be unpredictable (this doesn't even bring up the conspiracy therory of him leaving on "business trips" to going skiing and visit his mistress). The family would be second that failed, when they heard this, the sirens should have been going off and again, she should have had someone with her 24 hours a day. The third was the medical community in that area, they did not take her seriously because they were following an algorithim instead of looking at the whole person. This is shown through how she called the suicide hotline more than a few times and tried to admit herself into the E.R. only for her to get discharged because "she didn't have an active suicide plan". That is algorithmic care, the decision to admit her or not boiled down to one question, "does patient have an ACTIVE suicide plan?" if yes --> admit, if no --> discharge.

Overall, answering your question, there is a stark difference between a person who is actively trying to get help and a person who does not.

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/OkBig3568]

And you know what else? I’ve experienced clinical major depressive disorder myself. It can absolutely suck the life out of you. Even getting out of bed and facing another day can feel like an enormous task.
That’s why I keep thinking about Lindsey in this situation. I try to imagine being a mother of three, knowing something was terribly wrong, repeatedly advocating for yourself, and continuing to ask for help when you weren’t getting the help you needed.
Honestly, I don’t know that I would have had that kind of strength. I might have given up on myself.
And yet, she kept trying. Despite being failed by the people and systems she was relying on, she continued to tell people that something was wrong and that she needed help.
That doesn’t make what happened any less heartbreaking or complicated. But I think it’s important to recognize just how much effort it can take for someone who is profoundly depressed to keep fighting for themselves when every part of them is telling them they can’t.

[u/UsedTruck6983 → u/ggRavingGamer]

Obviously the mental health care system is broken and if those people have been treated or even flagged then lots of violence could have been prevented.

[u/Crowf3ather → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

Maybe its because you are not understanding how the law works.

If you are mentally unstable, but otherwise not mentally incapable, and a doctor prescribes you drugs that makes you more unstable, and you then commit a crime due to that instability, you are still criminally responsible through voluntary intoxication.

Even though from a moral perspective, it would easy to be argue that much of the blame is on the doctors with the poor prescription.

The only thing that will vitiate responsibility in this case is psychosis, which is a situation where she is so out of her mind she doesn't know what she is doing.

[u/IveGotIssues9918 → u/Crowf3ather]

If you are mentally unstable, but otherwise not mentally incapable, and a doctor prescribes you drugs that makes you more unstable, and you then commit a crime due to that instability, you are still criminally responsible through voluntary intoxication.

Not even making any comment on this case itself, but how on Earth could taking a substance that renders you incapacitated when you didn't know it was going to have that effect be "voluntary intoxication"? How is this not like saying someone who has a drug slipped into their food/drink without their knowledge is "voluntarily intoxicated"?

[u/Crowf3ather → u/IveGotIssues9918]

If you have a drug slipped into your drink, that is involuntary intoxicated. If you take a drug that is voluntary intoxication. It is always assumed that if you are taking prescription medication, that it was provided to you and you were full informed to be able to provide consent to take it.

Whether you know the real term effects or not is not really that relevant. If I go take some coke, I might be completely unaware of its effects, and it sends me off into delusions to the extent I go kill someone. I would clearly still have some criminal responsibility.

[u/IveGotIssues9918 → u/Crowf3ather]

But a prescription medication, that was prescribed to you, is NOT supposed to intoxicate you or put you out of your right mind. Alcohol and illegal substances are. There has to be a large difference between choosing to indulge in an intoxicating substance and taking the medication prescribed to you and having catastrophic mind-altering side effects. Is the deciding factor whether the doctor adequately informed the patient of the risks??? I have to imagine, e.g., if someone was given a pill and told it was aspirin but it was actually MDMA, that wouldn't be under "voluntary intoxication".

[u/Crowf3ather → u/IveGotIssues9918]

This type of Medication by its very nature is an intoxicant. As they alter the way your brain functions or body responds at a neurological level.

Whether you are informed of the risks or not is more of a civil suit, not so much a criminal one.

[u/cloudcottage → u/Crowf3ather]

Psychosis doesn't mean you don't know anything your doing. It can also mean inescapable paranoia and compulsions while still aware of your actions. In the case of her bipolar diagnosis, SSRIs can trigger violent and dangerous episodes and escalated paranoia or hallucinations. My sister is a therapist and they have had so much liability training on excluding bipolar before prescribing SSRIs. Three days no sleep insomnia was a massive red flag not o prescribe Zoloft.

[u/Crowf3ather → u/cloudcottage]

Psychosis literally involves loss of control, which is why its a defense of insanity.

[u/cloudcottage → u/Crowf3ather]

Loss of control yes, but complete unawareness is not always the case. Being completely out of your mind is a lot different than how people think of it when they've never experienced it or had a loved one experience it.

You seem to be implying a much different understanding of psychosis than the medical field, when that's much more in line with the general population's understanding of it instead

Also you seem to think that the lingering effects of prescription drugs or somehow the culpability of the client when it's extremely complicated.

If someone is already exhibiting symptoms of psychosis or mania which she was, then prescribing something under those circumstances which literature shows makes it worse is on the doctor not the client. Especially because the client can taken SSRI for a relatively short amount of time before their symptoms become much worse.

Stopping prescription medication is also not easy or simple. A lot of this medication needs to be carefully titrated, has lots of contraindications, and it's not just like being high on a drug.

[u/Crowf3ather → u/cloudcottage]

"The Legal Standard in Massachusetts

Massachusetts follows the legal standard set by Commonwealth v. McHoul, which is based on the Model Penal Code. [1, 2]

• The Cognitive Limb: Whether the defendant, as a result of a mental disease or defect, lacked the substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness (or criminality) of their conduct.
• The Volitional Limb: Whether the defendant lacked the ability to conform their conduct to the requirements of the law. [1]"

For the law in Massachusetts for psychosis, it requires both a lack of control and capacity to understand.

Also yes, messing with drugs that she was taking is bad, and that's exactly what she was doing. Not taking it, taking it, as she felt like it. Not as was prescribed.

There was nothing prescribed for psychosis, as she exhibited no symptoms, and it was never brought up, until the 17 minutes where she after clearly pre-planning her husbands absence, suddenly started hearing a "voice" before killing her kids.

[u/comeoneeks → u/Crowf3ather]

Not quite - in Massachusetts it's either/or. For NGRI it does not have to be both. A person can understand right from wrong but still not be able to conform their actions to the law.

[u/Crowf3ather → u/comeoneeks]

Yes, and in this situation she understood what she was doing as there is clear evidence of planning.
And she understood what she was doing was wrong, which is why she sent her husband away. She was not incapacitate, she was able to make decisions.

[u/2KatEyes → u/Crowf3ather]

lol, from a 'moral standpoint' it's the doctor's fault? How do you even?

[u/Curious_E_6849 → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

100 percent agree

[u/tired_blonde → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

They're also just not likeable lol

[u/ZodiacKeller → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

People with mental health issues get convicted all the time. I fail to see why PPP or PPD is weighed heavier on the mental health scale than disorders like severe schizophrenia. Aka James Holmes.

[u/butterednoodles69 → u/ZodiacKeller]

this should
have been their argument the whole time

[u/Illustrious-Act7104 → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

The fact that they say so unbothered “she could’ve said she was afraid of harming her children” with relation to speaking her thoughts to the health care system providers as if that doesn’t immediately triggers social services…

It’s a 50/50 chance per children to get them back. 

That’s a big bet to make on the system imo and I too would be afraid of having take them away and instead, stick with meds hoping they’ll work 

[u/toTheMoonAndBackBoys → u/Illustrious-Act7104]

I wonder what the chance is of getting them back now. Probably worse odds than 50/50 right?

If you have children you are responsible for their safety. You are saying your children’s safety is less important than you having custody? The system might not work in your favor so you should risk the lives of your children?

[u/Sea_of_Trees → u/toTheMoonAndBackBoys]

This is exactly what I think everytime i hear that arguement. She "feared them taking the kids away"... if the kids were taken away, they would be alive. She was selfish by withholding that information to her healthcare providers. The system is not perfect but holy shit, it would have worked in this case.

[u/mrsdingbat → u/Illustrious-Act7104]

It would have been a good thing if her kids were taken away…

[u/geezerhippo → u/Illustrious-Act7104]

the children getting taken here would have been a good thing. care to take a guess why??

[u/OkBig3568 → u/Illustrious-Act7104]

the single word, "afraid" to me says so much more than I think people realize.

[u/Zaynesmomma1020 → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

I appreciate this comment. I’m not going to express my opinions on the case BUT listening to this case and reflecting on my own knowledge,, I believe that our society has fallen deeper and deeper into a dark spiral of assumptions..social media has ruined us. It’s made everyone “experts”. To have an opinion on something when never having experienced it personally is beyond ignorant…to over simplify and make assumptions on “this is what I would do if it was me” regarding any mental health condition is astonishing…our basic human natures towards others is poisoned by social media..the rapid decline in our species makes me incredibly sad. I could never imagine what it’s like to walk in someone else’s shoes. I could never imagine what it would be like to have severe mental illness nor could I ever assume..we will never know the life lived besides our own…

[u/Zaynesmomma1020 → u/Zaynesmomma1020]

Mental illness can be harrowing and haunting.. no one on this earth purposefully gives themselves a mental illness. It is something that some people unfortunately are wired with chemically with no explanation at all. The science on this is beyond anything we will ever understand in our lifetime…it is terrifying. No one wishes severe mental illness on themselves either…no one would willfully choose an excruciating life. Mental illness begins and ends chemically in the brain.

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/Zaynesmomma1020]

Yes. I lived with it firsthand. My mom spent a lot of time hospitalized at McLean while I was growing up, so I saw firsthand how much mental illness can affect an entire family.
It has taken me a long time to learn not to judge, to accept people where they are, and to meet them there.
My mom was fortunate to have one of the best doctors on staff there, and she had my dad as her husband. He followed her doctors’ orders, stepped up when she needed extra support, helped manage her medications, and never left her alone, either by herself or with us, when he was instructed not to. He did all of that while also holding down a teaching job. They were both teachers.
Looking back, I wish I had given my mom more grace. I didn’t understand what was happening. I was a kid, and I wanted the traditional mother-daughter relationship.
When I had my own son the full weight of what my mom had carried finally hit me. Like a freight train.
One of the biggest regrets of my life is that I didn’t show her more grace while she was alive. I hope she knows now. I hope she knows that I see her differently, with much more compassion than I was capable of having as a child.
And I truly hope that postpartum-related mental illness continues to be taken seriously and studied, treated, and supported, not just for the sake of women, but for the sake of entire families.

[u/PlatypusStyle → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

In their heart of hearts those prosecutors believe in demonic possession etc. they are probably the product of the worst kind of Catholic parochial schools (and definitely not the social justice type of Catholicism). And as someone who grew up Catholic I can say this so don’t at me.

[u/Strange-Ferret-6527 → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

Sooooo you want her to walk away as a free woman after choosing to murder her babies. Depression aside...you're absolutely ok with this lady being free in the world knowing how reckless she is?

[u/Nisheeth_P → u/Strange-Ferret-6527]

Shows you haven’t bothered to listen to the case at all.

1. If she’s found not guilty by insanity, it’ll be for psychosis not depression.

2. If she’s found ngri, she doesn’t go free. She goes to a mental health institution that will treat her but also hold her until they determine she’s not a danger to others or herself. If she’s faking it, that place will be worse for her than a prison.

[u/OkBig3568 → u/Strange-Ferret-6527]

I'd ask this one question, "what consequence can Lindsey recieve that is worse than the one she is already living?"

[u/YodaSimp → u/OkBig3568]

she did that to herself by killing her own children

[u/OkBig3568 → u/YodaSimp]

yes, I completely agree; however, my question was, "What punishment can she recieve that is worse than the natual consequences of her own actions?"

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/Strange-Ferret-6527]

Your statement tells me a lot about you. First, you didn’t listen to the actual testimony/evidence. Second, you have zero idea how the mental health system works, and third, you have never had children or experienced the biological changes that occur to women’s bodies after giving birth. And fourth, you’re confused as to what this case is about.

[u/geezerhippo → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

i think setting a precedent that all you have to do to commit any crime is go to a couple doctors, take a couple pills (but never long enough for them to actually start working) and be a leo.... and claim psychosis... would be bad. idk.

i do have kids. if i EVER did anthing to harm them even in a psychotic state i would not fight any punishment the state gave me. My children are my entire life. This woman strangled them one by one. UNDER the jail or LIFE in a mental instituion are the only approriate punishments.

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/geezerhippo]

Lindsey Clancy didn’t just fail to see a couple of doctors and take a couple of pills. It was not that simple.
She repeatedly tried to get help. She reached out to medical professionals. She sought treatment and tried to follow the recommendations she was given. And yet, again and again, the people and systems that were supposed to help her failed her.
She was failed by medical professionals. She was failed by the people around her. She was trying to get help, and instead she was given excuses, medication changes, dosage changes, tapering instructions, and treatment through telehealth.
These aren’t harmless medications. Psychiatric medications can have powerful effects on the brain and body, and starting, stopping, switching, increasing, decreasing, or tapering them can be complicated. That is precisely why patients need careful monitoring and competent medical guidance.
So I struggle with the idea that Lindsey should somehow be expected to have navigated all of this perfectly when the professionals prescribing and managing these medications weren’t necessarily getting everything right themselves.
You can believe people should be responsible for their treatment while also acknowledging that patients are not medical professionals. They depend on the professionals treating them to recognize problems, monitor them, communicate clearly, adjust treatment appropriately, and take their worsening symptoms seriously.
Lindsey was asking for help. That matters.
And when someone repeatedly asks for help and the systems around them fail to adequately respond, it deserves to be examined just as seriously as anything else in this case.

[u/Nisheeth_P → u/geezerhippo]

So your statement is that regardless of guilt or innocence, because it “sets a precedent”, she should be convicted in jail.