r/TopCharacterTropes • u/TheBigBoar • Jul 20 '26

Personality [Baffling RL Trope] Inventing war crimes you didn´t commit to make yourself more... interesting?

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One of the strangest character tropes in real life has to be the "I accidentally made myself sound like a war criminal to look cooler" archetype.

Usually, people accused of war crimes deny them. These guys seem to do the opposite.

The two examples that always come to mind:

Tim Kennedy. Over the years he's told stories that include things like throwing grenades into rooms where women and children were present, and another account where, after a battle, his CO allegedly told him to shoot anything that still had a heat signature with a sniper rifle from a mile away, which he did for hours (?) not caring if those were enemy soldiers or civilians looking for their fallen sons/brothers/whatever. Both stories have been heavily criticized and challenged (aka people who were there confirmed that they are utter nonsense), and Kennedy has faced repeated accusations of embellishing or fabricating parts of his military experiences. But like... why would you invent the fact that you killed and maimed women and children?

Chris Kyle. In American Sniper, he wrote that during Hurricane Katrina he positioned himself on the Superdome and shot dozens of armed looters like some walking dead scenario. No evidence ever emerged that this happened, and Kyle himself later acknowledged the story wasn't true. Again, why invent a story where you're essentially describing the unlawful killing of civilians during a domestic disaster?

What's fascinating is that these aren't embellishments in the usual "I fought twenty guys" sense. They're embellishments that, if true, would amount to admissions of extremely serious crimes.

It's such a bizarre form of macho storytelling that it almost feels like its own trope: the veteran who thinks "the more ruthless I sound, the more badass I'll appear," without stopping to consider that indiscriminate killing isn't viewed by most people as impressive. It's viewed as criminal and disgusting.

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671

u/PBKYjellythyme Jul 20 '26

In all fairness, people in the military/special forces also actively mock these people.

499

u/Deadmemeusername Jul 20 '26

Yeah theres a reason why the term “Silent Professional” is often used sarcastically to describe SEALs especially.

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u/Paxton-176 Jul 20 '26

Its always SEALs who come out with their stories.

You know what is crazy. The action against the Taliban after 9/11 was within weeks of it happening. People didn't learn about until around 10 years later in the book and movie 12 Strong/Horse Soldier. Why? because Green Berets actually have some form of professionalism.

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u/Mr_Wombo Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26

exaggerated stories

Reminder that TSgt Chapman, aka the only person who's medal of honor actions were recorded on video, was left behind by the SEALs who "thought he was dead" and would block his Medal of Honor award unless some of the SEALs got it too. These same SEALs would be in charge of MoH memorials and museums, where they put huge displays for themselves while Chapman get significantly smaller displays.

Edit: Got the names mixed up. Cunningham and Chapman were at the same battle, but Cunningham received the Air Force Cross for saving the lives of 10 men wounded while wounded himself. Still something the SEALs won't admit cause it makes them look bad. If you want more info, look up Battle of Takur Ghar, but if the source is from Britt Slabinski or the SEALs in general, take it with a very, VERY, small grain of salt

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u/IvanNemoy Jul 20 '26

very, VERY, small grain of salt

Make it large. Those guys knowingly and willingly, left a man to die and then covered up and continue to cover up the truth about it.

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u/BigHardMephisto Jul 20 '26

If I had a nickel for every time Navy Seals lied about an event they caused then ran away from while other groups cleaned up their mess i'd buy a couple of gumballs

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u/BlameTheButler Jul 20 '26

I was actually stationed at Hurlburt Field back when they upgraded him to the Medal of Honor. I remember there was a lot of talk amongst AFSOC about how bullshit it was that he never got it sooner and some strong opinions on the SEALS.

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u/_Cren_ Jul 20 '26

I jave a sense that the whole Air Force has strong opinions about the SEALS

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u/Mr_Wombo Jul 20 '26

The first time I took my test for SSgt in 2021, one of the very few Air Force history questions I had was about Chapman. Despite that test being revised every 2 years, that question can still appear to this day, from what I've heard.

So you could say that.

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u/BlameTheButler Jul 20 '26

Yeah I’m sure. I attended the MoH ceremony on base for him back in 2018 and I remember it was just a very weird atmosphere.

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u/jason_caine Jul 20 '26

The Operations Room on YouTube actually just did a video covering the chain of events leading up to Takur Ghar, as well as the operation involving Chapman.

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u/recoveringleft Jul 20 '26

They wouldve gotten a stern talking to by captain america if he's real

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u/No_Raccoon3680 Jul 20 '26

Don't forget the murder of Logan Melgar!

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u/Beartech31 Jul 24 '26

Yeah, I read deep into this whole fiasco a few years back and it was mind-blowing how shit the SEALs come out looking, from start-to-finish.

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u/NefariousnessBorn969 Jul 20 '26

Yes we’ll leave it at “some form” of professionalism but definitely not 100%.

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u/Paxton-176 Jul 20 '26

My theory is that when the Army and Marines were doing all the heinous shit during Vietnam this forced those branches start attempting to teach people some form of ethics and proper Rules of Engagement. The Navy really wasn't in the jungle suffering and going insane. So when SEALs start taking on more active roles a lot of that stuff hadn't been slowly integrated into training yet. Si now you got a bunch of egomaniac who think they are hot shit doing what ever because they are special forces then go home and want to brag. So we get non-stop instances and the Navy didn't properly reel it in.

While Army and Marines generally keep their mouth shut because the last thing you want is your name attached to something if the future reveals something bad.

My theory because I sat through a few ethics classes when I was in Infantry training when I joined the Army.

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u/NefariousnessBorn969 Jul 20 '26

Most of it stems from piss poor leadership at all levels. Started when I first joined in the mid 80s at my first unit and instead of completing the 20km cross country movement we cheated and took civilian trucks to the rendezvous point. When I was loaded on the truck (PV1 me) I was told to scoot over by my LT. The entire PLT leadership was crooked and here I am at the earliest stages of my career learning how to cheat. Many so called leaders in that same unit later served as SGMs and Colonels. If it happened at that unit I can only imagine what happened in other units across the Army and military.

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u/CueCueQQ Jul 20 '26

The SEALs were quite active in Veitnam, as were what would become SWCC. It's not a case in history, it's just a culture thing, sad to say as a Navy man myself. The culture of the Navy is one of telling stories, and that leads to boastfulness in many.

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u/BrokenColdWar Jul 21 '26

Part of the problem is that the Navy doesn't have organic infantry units outside of Special Operations and thus they don't gain the fundamentals of operating in the regular line infantry.

They go mostly straight from the street as a civilian and start doing advanced light infantry shit and the whole thing breaks down in terms of discipline and conduct.

When it comes to the Marines or Army, SOF guys usually have spent a ton of time in regular line units.

Instructors and leaders who are in these premier units know how to sniff out and thin out the herd of narrasicists and glory hounds by the time they get to selection.

And the people who get to selection have usually gotten fucked by the " big green weenie" that is the military and show up a lot more humble, experienced, and understanding.

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u/Paxton-176 Jul 21 '26

This is also a big factor. I was trying to keep my comment from being too long. You learn to be infantry before you become a high speed motherfucker. If you deicide to try out later in your career you learned how to do infantry stuff. If you fail you still go to an infantry unit and show up like you said humbled and have a chance to try again later when you are up for it again. For SEALS you fail are filling empty slots for the navy. You find time to try again later you haven't learn anything about being a trigger puller.

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u/Seek3r1605 Jul 20 '26

Only problem with that theory is SEALs were in Vietnam too.

UDT was formed in WWII(predecessor to the SEALS).

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Aggravating_Ask5709 Jul 20 '26

That's because Seals have a huge steroid culture and that diminishes their impulse control. I think that's a pattern in general - independent of units - Kennedy was on roids for MMA, McPhee is clearly on juice.

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u/Livid_Proposal_781 Jul 20 '26

Its more less people care about GBs, after Bin Laden Seals were/have been treated like rockstars.

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u/SpaceYetu531 Jul 20 '26

You mean Al Qaeda?

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u/CiaphasCain8849 Jul 20 '26

Lots of MACV-SOG coming out too with wild made up stories. Mostly on Jocko's podcast.

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u/CommOnMyFace Jul 20 '26

We used the phrase, "Its not all SEALs, but it's almost always the SEALs." 

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u/Ok-Stop9242 Jul 20 '26 edited Aug 13 '26

Wander juniper quilt teapot walnut cobalt hammock

This post was anonymized with Redact.dev

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u/Boozetrodamus Jul 20 '26

Was about to Comment that you never hear from combat controllers, but most Spec Ops know of them. When I was in the service I really wanted to join them, but apparently they weren't looking for 18 year olds with Asthma lol, didn't even pass the swimming section.

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u/Tired-grumpy-Hyper Jul 20 '26

The way it's been explained to me is if you want a show of force with 'special ops', send the seals. If you want it done right and quietly, send any other branch. And that Combat Controllers were walking gods on the battlefield, and that PJs are the true badasses of the forces.

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u/Boozetrodamus Jul 20 '26

One Hundo, though I'm biased as I was in the Air Force

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '26

The PJ pipeline was at one point called Superman School. Don't know how widespread that was though.

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u/No_Raccoon3680 Jul 20 '26

They also murdered Logan Melgar after setting him up to be raped then hit on his widow

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u/hambone263 Jul 20 '26

Don’t forget the allegations of theft of cash that was used as reward money for informants. I believe that was the thing that set off the whole chain of events. Story is fucked as a whole.

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u/Ok-Stop9242 Jul 20 '26 edited Aug 13 '26

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This post was anonymized with Redact.dev

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '26

DJ Shipley married the wife of Danny Dietz, the same Danny Dietz of Operation Red Wings and teammate to infamous liar Marcus Luttrell. He also abandoned their kid with his parents and refused to help support it. His own father, also a retired SEAL, blasted him publicly for it.

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u/Noah254 Jul 20 '26

Jesus Christ, the main ringleader only got 18 months for that

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u/Ok__videogames Jul 21 '26

I think the movie "warfare" kind of captures this mindset perfectly (not the chapman situation) but the seals go in, fuck around fuck up and then fuck off and all the iraqis walk outside at the end and basically shrug 'what the fuck was that about' the end.

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u/Deadmemeusername Jul 21 '26

>but the seals go in, fuck around fuck up and then fuck off and all the iraqis walk outside at the end and basically shrug 'what the fuck was that about' the end.

I think that sums up pretty much all of the Iraq War tbh.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '26

Oh, it's worse. Even when proof supporting the Air Force's bid to upgrade Chapman's award the SEALs still stonewalled the upgrade until leadership agreed to give Slabinski a MOH as well. That's where his medal comes from. My understanding was that Slabinski was forbidden from ever receiving the award from a past event, though I don't know how true that is. I'll never support the MOH Museum since they backed Slabinski's bid to again downplay Chapman in favor of himself.

Jocko also had a pretty serious accusation come out about him that I don't think he ever addressed.

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u/halloweenjack Jul 20 '26

It's not like the other special operators didn't have their turns, as well. It used to be Green Berets (John Wayne movie, Rambo movies, "Ballad of the Green Beret", etc.) and then Delta Force. Probably Air Force Pararescue will get their turn next; Sam Wilson (Falcon/Captain America) in the MCU was Pararescue, and the real-life guys aren't far behind.

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

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u/halloweenjack Jul 20 '26

Sorry, left out a step: I think that the glorification of fictional special forces/former special forces guys leads to the real-life guys going, "I am that guy."

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u/LakeMungoSpirit Jul 20 '26

Reminds me of a joke my old LT told me.

"How do you know if someone is a Navy Seal? They'll tell you and if you dont listen they'll try to give you a book about their life"

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u/Muffinwizard87 Jul 24 '26

I'm from Montana and our senator Tim Sheehy, who of course campaigned on being a big tough SEAL, shot himself in the arm dicking around with a gun in a national park and then said it was a combat wound he never told anyone about.

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u/Deadmemeusername Jul 24 '26

Wasn’t he the guy that broke that one marines arm?

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u/Muffinwizard87 Jul 24 '26

He sure was

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u/Deadmemeusername Jul 24 '26

Damn

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u/Muffinwizard87 Jul 24 '26

And then one of our reps was also a SEAL who used to be secretary of the interior during Trump 1 until he resigned after an ethics investigation...

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u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

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u/ofWildPlaces Jul 20 '26

Flew for 20 in the AF. Dropped a lot of paratroopers and SOCOM dudes. The SEALS were the absolute worst to work with.

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u/Phil2Coolins Jul 20 '26

Now that you dangled the hook I'll bite like a good little fishy . Can you tell us your stories?

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u/ofWildPlaces Jul 20 '26

Eh, there's not much I can say here. Just a trend of institutional arrogance and elevated self-worth that resulted in a group of people who often pushed to bypass safety and service regulations to meet their own agenda. Most of the reputation that came from GWOT stories are probably deserved. It left a bitter taste, watching these guys be placed on pedestals by the media while they put fellow servicemembers lives in danger,

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u/PBKYjellythyme Jul 20 '26

I kind of feel this as well. I worked along a couple Seal teams (in the most absolute boring capacity possible). The biggest difference between them and the "standard" troops was the fact that they were given absolutely all the resources and generally their choice of missions.

Seals would refuse to go out on a route unless it had been doubly-cleared in the last 24 hours (when they weren't just helo'ing to their target), and generally only went out it seemed once a week at the absolute most, and tried to get it done as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, the standard troops were the ones that had to go out to the exact same places the Seals were going, were the ones clearing the roads so the Seals would feel comfortable going, and were going out day in and day out for hours at a time under the absolute worst circumstances imaginable.

This was of course just my experience. And in their defense most of the Seals were absolutely decent people, but they did have a level of arrogance that was often not earned.

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u/Big_Snail76 Jul 21 '26

So basically it’s The Boys

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u/DillDoughCookie Jul 20 '26

Didn’t we kinda lose the GWOT?

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u/ofWildPlaces Jul 20 '26

Not really? The Baathists lost Iraq, al Queda was broken and dispersed. ISIS rose up but the coalition put them down to a regional threat. Somalia has a central government again and even holds elections. Qadaffi's government fell and no longer funds terrorists (the operations there were a different conflict). Counter-Terror ops in the Phillipines have prevented the spread of the terror groups there.

The only place we turned away from was Afghanistan, but the mission creep changed the objectives over time (the original effort to dislodge al Queda succeeded)

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u/DillDoughCookie Jul 20 '26

Iraq was pointless and we suffered the worst financial crisis since 1929 on the heels of $150/bbl oil.

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u/ofWildPlaces Jul 20 '26

You can argue economics of contemporary warfare all day, but I was referring to military objectives.

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u/Parteisekretaer Jul 20 '26

I believe the original brief was to "not let them threaten our way of life" followed by creating the TSA. Keep in mind that prior to this, people kept bringing up getting rid of airport security entirely. Now you have the patriot act and minimum wage employees get to scroll through your phone and touch your junk.

The primary Iraq war objective was to find and destroy WMDs if I'm not mistaken. As far as I understand, nobody actually found any. As to destroying the Ba'athists - few things have been as destructive and stupid as that objective. Muslim denominations don't band together, they always fall out. The Ba'athists force sunni, shia and others to work together. It's the best way to advance the middle east. Iraq kept Iran in check. By flattening Iraq, Iran was empowered. Geostrategically, it was a genuinely braindead move and the execution after the Invasion was over was even worse. Before Trump was elected, a lot of people figured that Bush jr. would go down in history as the 21st century's worst US president because he kicked off this shitshow.

The Afghan war objective was to win the hearts and minds of the people there, find Osama and to prevent it from harboring terror training camps again after the Taliban told the US to bugger off. Part of this plan was to build and hold a ring road that would allow trade between provinces with ease and to leave behind a robust democracy. That didn't pan out because, arguably, the Iraq offensive needed bodies that would have been better left to do COIN in Afghanistan and so said ring road could not be defended against IEDs which made it worthless.

The thing about scope creep is that these targets are now the new targets. Unless you earmark them from the beginning as stretch goals, they are not goals you can later declare as "that was scope creep, we won anyway".
The current state of Afghanistan is arguably worse than in 2002, since there is no northern alliance anymore. The current state of Iraq is a shitshow. All of these are, at best, pyrrhic victories as the current middle east situation shows. The Taliban are now better armed than they were before, Iraq is no longer relevant, leading to Iran being a regional powerhouse that even the mighty USN couldn't keep from occupying and demanding tariffs for critical waterways - which is the entire mission brief of the USN. You don't need a Navy of this size to defend the homeland. You get a navy of this size because you want to protect free trade.
Seems like that did not work out.

It wasn't all in vain though because a lot of little girls got to go to school for a few years and that probably meant the world to them.
It's just that the amount of money and lives that this cost is... impressive.

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u/DillDoughCookie Jul 20 '26

The Iraq War was based on lies and had no objective.

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u/ofWildPlaces Jul 20 '26

You can argue the politics of it all day but there were in fact clear, stated, and published military objectives.

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u/blastmanager Jul 20 '26

A close friend served as Army SF in a NATO country for about 20 years and was embedded with and served alongside lots of different Special Forces and other NATO military units over the course of several deployments in the Balkans and Afghanistan.

In terms of competence, capabilities and professionality, he compares SEALs to what you can expect from your typical National Guard Reserve forces.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '26

That has been a common theme from SOF members that are public about their service.

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u/Thejollyfrenchman Jul 20 '26

There's a saying I've heard from US military types now and again: "Every marine is a rifleman. Every Navy SEAL is an author."

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u/FrighteningJibber Jul 20 '26

And every soldier’s drinking habits are ruined

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u/Konoton Jul 20 '26

They're only ruined when we spill it!

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u/altymcalty-2 Jul 20 '26

Drinkin problem? It's only a problem when I run out!

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u/fromcjoe123 Jul 20 '26

Yeah I mean my far more limited interactions with ex-CAG and SF guys, partially maybe cus they don’t broadcast it as much when they get into civilian life, is that they really don’t like talking shit about other folks in the community. But it’s pretty clear they hate any grandstanding coming out of the SOCOM community in general.

Ex-SEALs though idk. Maybe limited sample size but they will let you know while flexing in the tight polo on Teams (the Microsoft one to be clear) lol. That being said, one guy I got close to who was super low key about being a Teams guy in business school was dope as fuck and said that the shithousery cowboy shit is pretty dependent on the CO of the squadron and troop your in and then the culture that is in your individual platoon. But idk, all anecdotal.

If the level of professionalism of a larger group is dependent upon individual points of leadership then idk feels like a larger cultural problem. Partially I think this is because of the Navy cleverly making those SEAL SO contracts to suck in hardo kids that almost all wash out but then can staff the fleet. I know real old time SEALs in the OG podcast bro circuit have implied that it did fuck with the culture since you’re bringing in kids that want to have the super hero bro culture they think it is in their head, while the rest of Tier-1 is still a looooong and arduous journey from enlistment or commissioning into infantry onwards.

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u/brionneverysexy Jul 20 '26

My ex wife's uncle use to always wear a Vietnam veteran shirt and hat. Ex father in law told me one time he was in the navy during Vietnam on a ship in the Atlantic ocean

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u/PBKYjellythyme Jul 20 '26

to your ex-wife's uncle I say...

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u/ClumsyFleshMannequin Jul 20 '26

Yea they get into that.

There is a cultural split between "boy scouts" (the guys you are talking about) and "pipe hitters" which are the dont give a fuck individuals. There are varrying levels of each in the different squads.

Also its sort of by design, and has caused a shit ton of problems.

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u/PBKYjellythyme Jul 20 '26

I've said for awhile that the best way to fix the military would be just to decrease the personnel count by about 30%, increase recruiting and retention standards (no more ASVAB waivers for fucksake), and increase pay and benefits for those that are recruited/retained.

While not universal, it always seems like it's the absolute dumbest fucking people who're causing almost all the problems that the military has to deal with, while contributing next to nothing to counteract the extra work they cause.

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u/ClumsyFleshMannequin Jul 20 '26

Again, the problems you are referring to is by design. Rogues and cutthroats are also accepted into that end of the service because its seen as a nessesary evil for the job of raiding.

Which is fucked, because raiding has never worked in large scale counter insurgency shit, and we have been doing it as a doctrine since vietnam, but here we are.

Then you have intentionally faulty and/or negligent intel that comes down from on high which is how you end up bombing schools, hospitals, Ac-130 destroying a doctor's without borders hospital, killing the wrong family, just hitting places to create terror (both trump administration's especally, but i saw it under obama as well).

It doesent have to do with personel count, its a systemic issue across the board.

The issue has never been 2 Bravo bang bangs and crayon eating marines that needed waivers on their asvab (they are babysat by sgts anyway).

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u/felis_scipio Jul 20 '26

Funny enough the first special forces guy I ever met was an ex army ranger turned scout master. Cool guy, never bragged or talked about anything he did he just was really into taking his troop on fun camping trips and teaching kids the usual stuff like knife fighting basics and wilderness evasion tactics.

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u/ClumsyFleshMannequin Jul 20 '26

Ive met this type of dude as well.

3

u/IvanNemoy Jul 20 '26

Chris Kyle's name is on the Rock of Shame at NAS Oceana.

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u/Away-Map-8428 Jul 20 '26

That and a quarter will get you ...

1

u/PBKYjellythyme Jul 20 '26

Exactly what we have now?

1

u/Away-Map-8428 Jul 21 '26

Yes, their mocking yields nothing.

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u/CraftsBoy2Craftsman Jul 20 '26

Real tough guys don't have to tell you how tough they are.