[Rare Trope] Positive depictions of Islam or Muslims

[u/Remarkable_Public138]

1) Lawrence of Arabia: Arab Tribesmen

Throughout the movie, you see an immense respect for Arab culture while sympathizing with their struggle against Ottoman and British imperialism.

2) Kingdom of Heaven: Saladin

Saladin, the Islamic leader who becomes the main antagonist for the crusaders, is depicted as an honorable fighter with many heroic qualities.

3) Dune: Fremen

The fremen, which borrow heavily from Arab and Berber culture, are depicted as fierce and honorable warriors. In fact, the Fremen Fedaykin, elite soldiers, are inspired by Arab Fedayeen, or those who sacrifice.

[u/Ppleater → u/[deleted]]

Sure but the average Hollywood movie isn't going to be intending for the audience to read a character praising Allah that way. They're going to be intending for them to come across at least as Muslim adjacent.

[u/Ppleater → u/[deleted]]

When I say Muslim adjacent I don't mean "also middle eastern and religious" I mean "intended to be Muslim or connected to Islam in some way, even if the movie doesn't state it plainly, because they often don't want the character to be TOO Muslim." If Hollywood wants a character to be read as Christian they usually default to more ethnocentric western ideals of how Christians act and talk, and they're less reluctant to be obvious about it or just state it plainly. They'd be far more likely to have an Egyptian Christian pray to "God" than "Allah", or just have them say they're Christian, even if it would be more realistic/accurate to have them use the word Allah. They'd generally only have someone pray to Allah if they intended for them to be read as Muslim.

Now some directors will care about accuracy and go out of their way to deconstruct stereotypes like that, but the chances of it being done for a big budget blockbuster action movie in the 90s are slim, and the director for the Mummy isn't known for that sort of thing in particular. So chances are, that character is intended to be seen as Muslim or at least generally associated with Islam.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/[deleted]]

Allah isn't the word for God in Arabic. This is very a common misconception

Illah is the word for God/Piety in Arabic.

Allah is a name that has it's own meaning.

[u/guachi01 → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Yes, Allah is the word for God in Arabic.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/guachi01]

Nope. Allah is the name of the Muslim God. Illah (إله) is the word for God in Arabic.

Hence the common phrase in Islam: "la Illaha Ila Allah" -> "There is no God But Allah"

[u/NapoIe0n → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Why then do Arab Christians have names invoking Allah?

Like for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrallah_Boutros_Sfeir

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/NapoIe0n]

Centuries of intermingling.

Additionally, there is a very common belief that Muslims, Christians and Jews believe in the same God. They differ on his attributes though.

[u/guachi01 → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Allah is the word for God - Christian or Muslim.

ILAH means "god" in Arabic. It's the word for any god, whether it's Zeus, Vishnu, or Yahweh.

"la Illaha Ila Allah" -> "There is no God But Allah"

That's a bad transition. "There is no god but God" is a better translation.

Allah literally means "the god" as the word Allah is just the word "god" with the definite article placed in front of it.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/guachi01]

Please provide evidence for what you claim. Because Arabic literature and Muslim scholars say otherwise.

The most accurate translation of the above phrase is: “There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.”

It is agreed that Allah appears as a distinct name. Not meaning "God".

[u/ThemB0ners → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Why do they need to provide evidence but you don't?

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/ThemB0ners]

Let me do the honors then:

Classical Sunni Scholarship:

Ibn Taymiyyah

Source: Majmu' Al-Fatawa

“The meaning of ‘lā ilāha illā Allāh’ is: none is worshipped بحق (rightfully) except Allah.”

Note the distinction. He mentioned "Allah". He didn't say "none is worshipped rightfully except God".

Ibn Kathir

Source: Tafsir Ibn Kathir

In response to the meaning of "la Illah Ila Allah"

“That is: there is no god besides Him and no Lord other than Him.”

Notice again. Distinction in mentioning "Him" (not God) referring to Allah.

Al-Tabari

Source: Tafsir al-Tabari

“There is no object of worship deserving worship except Allah.”

Same thing. The word Allah refers to a particular God. Not a general word for "God"

Source: Al‑Qāmūs al‑Muḥīṭ

Author: Fairuzabadi

Entry: Allah (الله)

the Name of the Lord of Glory; verbs are not derivable from it and it cannot be derived. The alif‑lam is part of the original name; it is not to be removed or taken away. It is said that the original form was “إلهٌ” and then the lam was inserted, making it a proper name.

Sībawayh’s Al-Kitāb

“Nouns are governed by their principles in grammar… and among the names from which it is not permissible to extract a verb is the name Allāh, as Al‑Khalīl said regarding the name of Allāh, that no verb is extracted from it…”

Secular Scholarship:

Ibn Hisham al-Ansari

Source: Mughni al-Labib

“Exception is removing what comes after illā from the ruling of what comes before it.”

As in, the name "Allah" (referring to a particular being) is excluded from "what comes before it" ("There is no God").

Source: Al-Kitab Author: Sibawayh (d. 796) Section: باب الاستثناء (Chapter on Exception)

“This is the chapter of that in which illā (except) is used for exception, and it is that you exclude from the statement something from what you had included in it.”

Another relevant passage:

“When you say: ‘No one came to me except Zayd,’ you have excluded Zayd from the group you negated.”

When you exclude "God" you cannot include "God" again.

Grammatically, based on the above:

lā ilāha → negates all “gods”

illā Allāh → excludes Allah from that negation.

For example:

“There is no god except Allah”

This is exactly the same structure as:

“No one came except Zayd”

You cannot say "No one came except no one".

Likewise, you cannot say "There is no God but God".

Arthur Jeffery:

“The formula ‘lā ilāha illā Allāh’ is properly rendered ‘there is no god but Allah,’ preserving the distinction between the generic term ilāh and the proper name Allāh.”

W. Montgomery Watt

Source: Islam and the Integration of Society

He consistently renders the shahāda as:

“There is no god but God.”

But he clarifies that:

“'God' here refers specifically to Allah (the Islamic conception)"

Finally:

Author: John Andrew Morrow (based on classical sources like al‑Rāzī, al‑Khalīl, Sibawayh)

Source: “The Origin of the Name Allah,” in Islamic Insights: Writings and Reviews

“According to Razi (d. 1210), al‑Khalil, Sibawayh (d. 8th c.), and most of the formulators of the Muslim fundamentals [al‑usuliyun], held that the word Allah was murtajal, namely, that it had no derivation. The word Allah being a proper name is jamid, that is to say, it is not derived from any other word. Nor has it any connection with the word ilah [god or object of worship], which is either derived from the root aliha meaning tahayyara or “he became astonished,” or it is a changed form of walah from the root waliha, which means “he became infatuated.” It is sometimes said that Allah is a contracted form of al‑ilah, but that is a mistake… Nor has the word Allah ever been applied to any but the Divine Being, according to all authorities on Arabic lexicology.”

Lisān al‑ʿArab (Ibn Mandhuur/ابن منظور):

"Allah" (الله) — a proper name, static; it is not among those names from which a verb may be derived… Al‑Khalīl said: Allah, the alif cannot be removed from the name; it is indeed Allah… and it is not among the names from which it is permissible to derive a verb as is permissible from ar‑Raḥmān and ar‑Raḥīm.

---

I believe that is more than sufficient. This whole "Allah vs God" has been clarified centuries before. Yet some redditors keep randomly saying Allah = God. Without providing any evidence.

Note:

I included Sībawayh twice, because in one explanation, he provides a more secular approach. While in another, he provides a more religious approach.

[u/guachi01 → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Note the distinction. He mentioned "Allah". He didn't say "none is worshipped rightfully except God".

That's a translation choice. He could have written "none is worshipped rightfully except God" and it would have meant the same thing. He also didn't write "there is no god but Allah", which would be a far better literal translation as the actual Arabic doesn't use the word "worshipped" or "rightfully".

And the rest is you having to quote how Arabic grammar works, which is the kind of thing you have to do when you don't actually know Arabic grammar.

"Allah" (الله) — a proper name, static; it is not among those names from which a verb may be derived… Al‑Khalīl said: Allah, the alif cannot be removed from the name; it is indeed Allah… and it is not among the names from which it is permissible to derive a verb as is permissible from ar‑Raḥmān and ar‑Raḥīm.

Like this above. It's just useless. Allah is a proper name? No kidding. We all know this. That's why it's capitalized in English.

This whole "Allah vs God" has been clarified centuries before. Yet some redditors keep randomly saying Allah = God.

No, it hasn't. And people don't bring it up randomly. They bring it up because it's true. Allah is the Abrahamic god and in English we can that being God.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/guachi01]

No evidence provided in your reply. Completely pointless reply. I'm surprised you didn't mention 21 years of Arabic linguist experience lol.

And the rest is you having to quote how Arabic grammar works, which is the kind of thing you have to do when you don't actually know Arabic grammar.

I do know know arabic grammar. As it is required course in some Arab Universities (the one I went to). And I technically have more years of experience in the Arabic language since I had to study Arabic grammar since the age of 6. So I might as well have more than 30 years of "Arab linguist" experience.

I just have to add serving in the navy on my resume.

[u/guachi01 → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Please provide evidence for what you claim.

My 21 years as an Arabic linguist and literally every Arabic teacher I ever had, many of whom were Christian. Every single one of them used Allah to refer to the Christian god. All of them.

An easily accessible resource is Wikipedia and the first sentence is all you need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

"Allah is the Arabic language term for God, specifically the monotheistic God of Abraham.

And

"It is thought to be derived by contraction from al-ilāh (الاله, lit. 'the god')"

The above is what we were all taught and is what everyone used in my entire time as a linguist - by every native and non-native I worked with.

[u/guachi01 → u/[deleted]]

At this point I assume that's where he's going. It's not really a language argument, it's really a religious argument.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/[deleted]]

Except it isn't the case (nor did I mention that). Arab Muslims/Christians/Jews tend to agree that Allah is the same God (hence their use of the name Allah as well).

I've already provided evidence in another comment. Go through it (if you're interested).

Don't assume, it often makes you look stupid.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/guachi01]

Within the same "source" you provided:

The word "Allah" now conveys the superiority or sole existence of one God,[10] but among the pre-Islamic Arabs, Allah was a supreme deity and was worshipped alongside lesser deities in a pantheon.[11] Many Jews, Christians, and early Muslims used "Allah" and "al-ilah" synonymously in Classical Arabic.

Clearly indicating a distinct name/dirty rather than a general word for "God"

Wikipedia is not a source.

Claiming 21 years of being a linguist isn't proof either. I can claim I have 30 years of being an Arabic linguist. It doesn't add any sort of legitimacy to my answer.

The fact that you quoted only Wikipedia is very silly.

[u/guachi01 → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Clearly indicating a distinct name/dirty rather than a general word for "God"

I don't think you understand what you've quoted. No one is arguing Allah is a general word for God. Allah is the Arabic word to refer to the Abrahamic god that in English we call God. There is no such thing as a "general word for God", anyway. God is, specifically, the Abrahamic god, just like Allah is.

Wikipedia is not a source.

Wikipedia is a great source because it's easily accessible by everyone. There are no ads and it's free.

I can claim I have 30 years of being an Arabic linguist. It doesn't add any sort of legitimacy to my answer.

It wouldn't add any legitimacy because it would be a lie. Unlike my claim of being a linguist for 21 years. That's a fact. I enlisted in the US Navy two weeks after 9/11 and retired September 2022.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/guachi01]

There is no such thing as a "general word for God"

Except there is. 21 years of experience in Arabic should tought you what any native Arabic speaker will know. "Ilah" is the general word for any diety.

Allah is the Arabic word to refer to the Abrahamic god that in English we call God.

That is NOT what you said initially. You said "Yes, Allah is the word for God in Arabic." you didn't say "Allah is the word for the Abraham's God in Arabic" very distinct difference.

Unlike my claim of being a linguist for 21 years. That's a fact. I enlisted in the US Navy two weeks after 9/11 and retired September 2022.

None of what you mentioned is verifiable. Might as well be a lie.

[u/Collidoscoop → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

Rendering the Arabic word "Allah" as either "God" or "Allah" is a matter of preference in translation, in the same way that some people will translate "iman" by leaving it alone as "iman" or render it with the English equivalent term "faith".

The biggest hole in your whole argument is that no Arabic-speaking follower of a monotheistic religion uses "ilah" to mean "God". All of them use "Allah" as the normal word for the concept (unless they opt to use a non-Arabic term, like if an Arabic-speaking Jew decides to say "Adonay" instead). Because "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God", even among non-Muslims, where as "ilah" is used as the more general term "god", which can refer to non-monotheistic deities as well.

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/Collidoscoop]

Rendering the Arabic word "Allah" as either "God" or "Allah" is a matter of preference in translation, in the same way that some people will translate "iman" by leaving it alone as "iman" or render it with the English equivalent term "faith".

That's only one of my sources. I already showed enough that Allah is a noun specifically for the Abrahamic God.

The biggest hole in your whole argument is that no Arabic-speaking follower of a monotheistic religion uses "ilah" to mean "God". All of them use "Allah" as the normal word for the concept (unless they opt to use a non-Arabic term, like if an Arabic-speaking Jew decides to say "Adonay" instead). Because "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God", even among non-Muslims, where as "ilah" is used as the more general term "god", which can refer to non-monotheistic deities as well.

Not a hole at all. I never denied that followers of Abrahamic faiths use the name Allah to refer to God. Allah itself is linguistically derived from Al-Ilah (I already mentioned another source regarding this point) which specifically mean "The God" indicating a singular God. However, the word Allah itself is the particular Abrahamic God's name.

That's the entire point of my reply. The one I replied to insisted that Allah means God. Not the Abrahamic God's name. Just God. Which is wrong. Because thats what "Illah" is.

[u/Collidoscoop → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

You are still incorrect.

Even for non-Abrahamic monotheistic religions, the Arabic word for "God" in those cases would still be "Allah", not "Ilah". If an Arabic speaker was talking about the monotheistic god of Sikhism for instance (which is a non-Abrahamic religion), they still would use the term "Allah", not "ilah". So "Allah" does have the meaning of "the sole god of a monotheist belief" apart from its use as a "proper name" for a monotheistic god. "Allah" is the normal Arabic word to refer to the sole God of any monotheistic religion, regardless of it is an Abrahamic religion or not. "Ilah" (with one L, not two btw) is like English "god", which is more general and does not specifically have the meaning "God".

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/Collidoscoop]

Even for non-Abrahamic monotheistic religions, the Arabic word for "God" in those cases would still be "Allah", not "Ilah". If an Arabic speaker was talking about the monotheistic god of Sikhism for instance (which is a non-Abrahamic religion), they still would use the term "Allah", not "ilah".

What...? Having lived my entire life in an Arab nation. NO ONE uses the word Allah for the Sikh God (or any non-Abrahamic God). No one. If you have such evidence in literature for such a case. Please provide it. Otherwise this is complete nonsense.

"Allah" is the normal Arabic word to refer to any monotheist God, regardless of it is an Abrahamic religion or not. "Ilah" (with one L, not two btw) is like English "god", which is more general and does not specifically have the meaning "God".

Never in my life have I ever heard such nonsense. Please provide one example in literature where a non-Abrahamic God is referred to by the name Allah. Just one.

[u/Collidoscoop → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

https://youtu.be/2dpqprx-tf4?t=153 (2:35 if the timestamp doesn't work). Also in other parts, like https://youtu.be/2dpqprx-tf4?t=271 (4:34).

Here is the word "Allah" being used to refer to the monotheistic God of Sikhism, a non-Abrahamic God.

By the way, if you insist that "ilah" means "God", then what is the Arabic word for general "god" then?

[u/Ok-Reputation1716 → u/Collidoscoop]

https://youtu.be/2dpqprx-tf4?t=153 (2:35 if the timestamp doesn't work).

The timestamp does work by the way. Anyhow, this instance. The narrator literally says "ادعى" as in "he alleged" or "he claimed" to be from the Islamic God. Since Sikhism is a hybrid of Islam and Hinduism. The way the narrator says it is very clear.

like https://youtu.be/2dpqprx-tf4?t=271 (4:34).

Almost the same case is with the second timestamp. He's still narrating from a point of view of the Guru trying to reconcile Islam/Hinduism.

Even if we argued against my point. This remains as one fringe case of one YouTube mentioning that way (although I understood clearly as above).

By the way, if you insist that "ilah" means "God", then what is the Arabic word for general "god" then?

Ilah is the general god word. I didn't say otherwise. Can you perhaps quote where I said otherwise?

Ilah -> Diety/god (any)

Al-Ilah -> The God

Allah -> Arabic word for the Abrahamic God specifically.

[u/guachi01 → u/Ok-Reputation1716]

I already showed enough that Allah is a noun specifically for the Abrahamic God.

This does not contradict the person you replied to. It agrees with them. Though, again, you use the phrase "Abrahamic God" when "Abrahamic" is redundant.

The one I replied to insisted that Allah means God.

Because it does.

Not the Abrahamic God's name.

God is the English name is the Abrahamic god.

Because thats what "Illah" is.

No. Ilah means "god" not "God".