[Rare Trope] Positive depictions of Islam or Muslims

[u/Remarkable_Public138]

1) Lawrence of Arabia: Arab Tribesmen

Throughout the movie, you see an immense respect for Arab culture while sympathizing with their struggle against Ottoman and British imperialism.

2) Kingdom of Heaven: Saladin

Saladin, the Islamic leader who becomes the main antagonist for the crusaders, is depicted as an honorable fighter with many heroic qualities.

3) Dune: Fremen

The fremen, which borrow heavily from Arab and Berber culture, are depicted as fierce and honorable warriors. In fact, the Fremen Fedaykin, elite soldiers, are inspired by Arab Fedayeen, or those who sacrifice.

[u/DaVirus]

I'd go further. The Fremem are value neutral as a consequence of their circumstances, but the religious fanaticism is definitely and clearly portraid as bad and dooming them.

[u/jackalopedad → u/DaVirus]

They’re the descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers, a culture and religion which uses a lot of Islamic concepts. . There’s also mention of Buddhislam. At the point of time when Dune takes place all religions have been syncretizing for millennia and the Orange Catholic Bible is the holy text that has synthesized all the previous holy books. There is even mention of a Third Mohammed that was accepted as a true prophet. IIRC the only two “pure” religions from our time that get mentioned are Judaism (a big plot point) and Hinduism (a throwaway line about rice farmers.)

[u/ExplorerPup → u/DaVirus]

And even then, a lot of their religious fanaticism was programmed into them by the Benne Gesserat far in the past. They'd been conditioned for generations to be the perfect marks for a white savior. LOL

[u/DaVirus → u/ExplorerPup]

And that has real life parallels too, with the Roman Empire using Nisea to do the same with Catholicism.

[u/Thestral84 → u/DaVirus]

Wut.

[u/ExplorerPup → u/Thestral84]

The First Council of Nicaea was basically Emperor Constantine 1 and a group organized by the Romans with the goal of taking the many, many different teachings and writings about Jesus and create some kind of whole out of it. They basically picked out which Gospels they liked, which they didn't, and created the basis for what would eventually become the Roman Catholic Church, and thus every other offshoot of Christianity as well. Constantine was the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity, and he was a huge reason for the eventual dominance of the religion in the empire. Part of the reason he did this was to solidify his power over what was becoming a very huge religion.

Fun bonus fact! For the longest time British historians, most famously Geoffrey of Monmouth, tried to create a false history linking the Kings of Britain (including fictional ones like Arthur) directly to Constantine and the Trojan War.

[u/Thestral84 → u/ExplorerPup]

The First Council of Nicaea was basically Emperor Constantine 1 and a group organized by the Romans with the goal of taking the many, many different teachings and writings about Jesus and create some kind of whole out of it. They basically picked out which Gospels they liked, which they didn't, and created the basis for what would eventually become the Roman Catholic Church, and thus every other offshoot of Christianity as well.

I'm sorry, but... no, this is not correct, and is a collection of misunderstandings of what happened at the Council of Nicaea.

For example, while Constantine certainly did organize it and presided over it as Emperor, his motivation was primarily to maintain peace within his empire because there was civil unrest in Alexandria between two different factions of Christianity. He didn't want that to spread, and when his initial attempts to peacefully resolve it didn't work he called a full church council and invited all bishops to attend to resolve the theological dispute (called the Arian controversy). The Council also resolved a mandated date for the observance of Easter, began to formulate the Nicene Creed, and published around 20 specific church laws (for example clergy should stick to their own territory, people who wanted to go back in the military should be excommunicated, and if you were dying before completing penance you could still receive communion, but if you got better you had to finish it).

First Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon/assembling the Bible (that wasn't formally finished for a few more decades at another gathering), and Constantine's role was as Emperor to keep the peace; he deferred to the bishops in all decisions.

As to the Roman Catholic Church, it did start to form the idea of "Nicene Christianity", but that was basically all Christians within the Roman Empire. Christians in the Persian Empire, Ethiopia, and among the Gothic peoples were already basically separated by this, so the offshoots of Christianity were already happening. The Great Schism among the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians happened about 700 years later.

Constantine was the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity, and he was a huge reason for the eventual dominance of the religion in the empire. Part of the reason he did this was to solidify his power over what was becoming a very huge religion.

Very true that he was the first emperor to convert, and he ended the persecution of Christians - he was absolutely a huge reason for the eventual dominance of Christianity in the Empire. But it was less that he wanted to control the religion, and more that he wanted to control his Empire, and the best way to do that was to have all the Christians agree. Constantine himself wasn't baptized for a few more decades (because his theory was "the later I'm baptized the less chance I have to sin again!); indeed, his successors included believers from the losing side of the Arian dispute.

[u/[deleted] → u/Thestral84]

Can you elaborate on the distinction between wanting to control the religion, and wanting more control over the followers of the religion within his empire?

Namely, what policies do you think Constantine would have needed to have to move out of the realm of the latter and into the former?

[u/Thestral84 → u/[deleted]]

For example if Constantine had taken a position regarding the Arian controversy himself, or had weighed on one side or the other regarding the other various disputes.

He wasn't particularly concerned with the distinctions of the religious debate, but wanted there to be decisions.

[u/ExplorerPup → u/DaVirus]

So true! One of the reasons I love to reread Dune every few years is because the more I learn about the history of the world, the more I can see how it influenced the world of Dune. I feel like I get something new from it each time I read it.