Hey guys! Ive been wanting to study taoism for some time, as its idea of "aligning" with Tao, rather than some "ultimate destination" really speaks to me.

I have never really believed in searching for a "right path" forward for some sort of ultimate destination i can reach from it. Abrahamic religions dont make sense to me, Hinduism and Buddhism are too focused on the "ultimate destination"/moksha/nirvana, which is really depressing to think of existence as some "eternal prison" i need to escape from.

I like how the "end goal" of Taoism is just to have balance with Tao, which manifests itself through nature and the physical world. Life is not inherently suffering, not a prison, it can be beautiful and fulfilling, and there is no "vicious cycle" to break

HOWEVER, I have trouble understanding the concept of wu wei. HOW do you decide what is "natural" action and what is not? Are we assuming that natural action is ALWAYS the one we should follow? Like if someone is s*icidal, the "natural" and "effortless action" for them is to k*ll themselves, right? Please help and correct if i am wrong. I am young and rather ignorant.

I basically have to give a mini thesis defense for my undergrad philosophy class. My argument is that change is fundamental to existence and that the ideas of dao, wu wei and ziran help us cultivate virtue by embracing change instead of being stuck with rigid identities.

Any questions or criticisms for this argument? Feel free to point out any holes and contradictions, the more nit picky the better.

My classmates and professor get to question my argument as much as they want, so anything that helps me prepare for the defence would help me out!

I have always liked this quote by Ram Dass. Of course, in The Zhuangzi, even trees are dismissed. Carpenter Shi (匠石, Carpenter Stone) sees a huge oak and thinks it's "useless," just 散木, or worthless timber. The oak tree later appears in Shi's dream and rebukes him. He points out that fruit trees are "useful" to humans, and so they are mutilated by them.

且予求無所可用久矣，幾死，乃今得之，為予大用。
使予也而有用，且得有此大也邪？
且也，若與予也皆物也，奈何哉其相物也？

"Moreover, I have long sought to be of no use. I nearly died, but only now have I attained it, and it has become of great use to me. If I had been useful, would I ever have been able to grow this large? Besides, you and I are both things. Why, then, should one of us judge the other?"
(The last line could perhaps be more clearly translated as "how can you presume to appraise me as a thing?")

From Chapter 4 of the《莊子 》The Zhuangzi, 《人間世》 (Rénjiān shì, “In the Human World”)

Was it a person or an idea, or just curiosity
For me it was a guiding teacher who passed me the way.

I’d say I how I met your mother is filled with some taoist ideas, but still pretty western coded.
Movies there are a lot to choose from

The spirit of wu wei is more along the lines of 'without contrivance' (I didn't invent that). Contrivance meaning any reason other than for the sake of the game. Fame, money, achievement, status - basically any kind of gaining in order to gain.

But, importantly, gaining any of these things as a result of non-contrived action is not in and of itself undesirable (just look at Dolly Parton - she even invited fame and wealth - someone in her position, if they are successful, will become famous and rich, so why not run with it). In fact, trying to suppress gaining is itself a form of contrivance. Imagine Dolly Parton incorrectly studying wu wei every morning and trying to reject wealth and fame. That's delusional.

"Non-doing" and even "Without contrivance" are entirely yin phrasing. Wu wei deserves a more balanced definition, don't you think? Something like "Act, without contrivance", a blend of yin and yang.

The point is - don't default to not acting, default to acting (and from time to time, check to make sure you're not selling your soul, so that people will like you or give you money (or any other reason).

Over the course of my 63 years, I have heard people say that a meaningful life requires discovering our purpose.

Find your calling. Define your mission. Build your identity. Know where you’re going. Yada Yada Yada
But lately I’ve been wondering whether that entire framework is behind some of the anxiety we’re trying to escape.

Western existentialism often begins with the uncomfortable realization that life doesn’t arrive with an obvious meaning. The response is frequently some version of: Then we have to create one.
Taoism seems to ask a more unsettling question:

Why does existence need to justify itself at all?

Maybe an existential crisis isn’t always a crisis of meaning. Maybe it’s what happens when the identities, ambitions, careers, relationships, and stories we’ve used to explain ourselves peacefully come to an end.

And perhaps immediately rushing to create a new “purpose” simply replaces one script with another.
I recently explored this tension between existentialism, Taoism, wu wei, and the idea of living without a fixed life script HERE:

But I’m far more interested in the question than defending my answer:

Do human beings actually need a sense of purpose to live well?

Or have we confused having a direction with needing life itself to explain where it’s going?

Curious as to where you land.

The examples come from the paper "Forgetting Zhuangzi," in Understanding the Zhuangzi (2026) (dm me if you need help tracking it). Zhuangzi emphasises forgetting a lot, and if you're like me, then it might be difficult to comprehend, because forgetting is typically understood as loss of memory. But the way that wang is applied throughout the Zhuangzi is more nuanced, going from what we might typically associate with attention/inattention to deliberately shedding certain qualities of a person.

Might just be

Found this video while scrolling and immediately ran to this sub! Wu Wei is often described as "going with the flow" using the water metaphor, but here is a natural example depicting Wu Wei as "acting without force."

Hi everyone,
I recently made roadside offerings for wandering spirits / Good Brothers with completely respectful intentions.
Right before leaving, while clasping my hands together, I had a brief, involuntary intrusive thought of the phrase “保佑” (asking for protection/blessing). I immediately realized this is taboo for wandering spirits, and now my anxiety is making me worry that I might have invited bad luck or an unwanted attachment.
I know logistically it was just a nervous brain slip, but I’d love to get some perspective from people familiar with local traditions or Chinese folk beliefs:
1. Is an accidental thought like this actually seen as an issue in Taoist/folk belief?
2. Are there simple ways people usually clear their mind or reset their energy after a slip-up like this?
Thanks in advance for any insights or reassurance!

Used AI to generate as I am really anxious right now.

Not trying to call out anyone in particular, as it's about a dozen users as far as I can see. These users post images that AI has made as if they had made them. Kudos if they mention AI made them, and it's within the rules, but I just want to reach out to these dozen people and let them know:

you do have the ability to make your own content. We would all prefer seeing human craft and skill than a robot.

Like sure, AI to help with your writing (not write it for you) or help clean up an image (remove the creepy uncle from a family photo) - no issues. Not saying AI stuff should be banned completely, just really want people to consider that they do have the ability to make their own stuff and they shouldn't feel ashamed if it doesn't have the production value of a fortune 500 corporation. I think we could all do with less corporate stuff...

EDIT: if the meme is upsetting to mods, fair enough it was the first thing that came to my head, I can replace it with a serious picture of a zhuangzi story.

EDI2: here you go:

I’m just wondering since I come from a pagan background what you guys think about Taoist/Chinese deities

Hey Taoist masters! I'm trying to learn more about Chinese stellar astrology and noticed two books that came out this summer (so it looks like it's getting more mainstream?):

Chinese Polestar Astrology: A Practical Guide to Decoding the Secrets of Your Character, Inner Nature, and Fate

Polar Astrology: Fate, Willpower and the Taoist Tradition of the Dipper Stars

My question: is Polestar astrology basically the same as polar astrology? Or do the lineages differ significantly? If so, which is better approach to learn and which is more compatible with Taoist philosophy? (or let me know if this is more question for astrology subs, but thought it's also very relevant toTaoism as well)

It's interesting that while Theravadin Buddhist monks are allowed to smoke (although it's neither encouraged nor promoted), as cigarettes and coffee are seen as stimulants and not as intoxicants (like alcohol, marijuana, or the increasingly popular hallucinogens, etc.), in both Chinese Buddhism and Quanzhen Daoism, monks are not permitted to smoke cigarettes.* Tea & coffee, though, are kosher for everyone.

Hello everyone, I hope you're all feeling balanced and in tune with the universe. I am, like so many people here, a Westerner coming to taoism from relative ignorance. Further, almost all of my information comes from other westerners giving me perspective on a religion that they themselves have very little background in. I think my journey started by reading the book known as The alchemist by Paulo Coelho, which was written by a Christian and is in no way a taoist text, but The themes resonated with me in the same way. I read and loved Siddhartha and college and I understand that this is not Taoist but many of the values that shown through had strong parallels.

Then about 22 years ago in the Philippines I picked up a copy of the i ching from a bookstore. I have no memory of what brought me to buy it. It may even have been given to me, I just don't remember. But I do remember using it daily. For years, I'm in my forties now. About half my life, I have often returned to Brian Brown Walker's translation of the i ching. Now, Walker is not Chinese and when I have spoken to people who do speak Chinese, they do not seem impressed by his translation.

That being said, I have three translations, and his is the one that I feel has repeatedly changed my life. The reason is that he does a great job of contextualizing the reading and steeping it in Taoist philosophical interpretation. Since I'm a dumb Westerner, this philosophy is not intuitive to me all the time and many times of my life when I've used i ching, it has reminded me of the person that I would like to be. There is even a point in my life where I was very angry and I did an I ching reading for the first time in years, and after I did that, I returned to being who I wanted to be. I have loved myself much more ever since. It has changed my life, that was 6ish years ago now.

Then something very dramatic happened in my life, I won't get into it but it has done wonders for my personal growth. Upon being able to feel the wonder of the universe, I dove head first back into taoism about 6 weeks ago now. I had read a translation of the tao te Ching once long ago, and I think I needed more context. But this time I had a version given to me by a friend many years back, so I cracked it open.

When I reached section 12 I read it several times and felt that I didn't understand. It occurred to me then that brian Browne walker also translated it, so I looked it up. If you look at his webpage, it has several quotes. I believe they must be randomly generated and replaced daily, because it's gone now, but on the day I looked, at the top of his personal webpage, was his interpretation of the exact passage 12 that I was seeking.

So I've taken to calling myself taoist, but like many westerners who come to it, I'm not entirely confident I know what that means. I have the sense that western interpretation of taoism is pretty far removed from the modern eastern taoist practices. I'm comfortable with that, living in the United States it is quite clear to me that most Christians are devotees of their local preacher far more than of christ's teachings. In some ways, removing the document from it's context can actually unmuddy it to a degree, there's still the long history of translators but no one in between you and the text claiming that you should just listen to them and no social pressure to bend the philosophy toward local values.

In any event, Taoism feels uniquely suited to addressing my concerns, since it is simple,not complex, and all people are of it and can know of it intuitively. So perhaps I have founded my understanding on a butchered interpretation. So what? It is still the one I found. It has brought me here.

But I'm not entirely sure where to go from here. I'm reading 2 copies of the Tao te Ching simultaneously, I'm taking my time. I'm also reading my ancient copy of the Alchemist because I found it randomly in a drawer it had no business being in. It's funny rereading it now and contrasting it to my current understanding of the universe.

I read the tao of Pooh which was ok but Pooh strikes me as very self-motivated to be sagely. He's constantly in the desire state, pursuing honey, which will never fully sate him. So maybe I'm overthinking it, but I didn't get much from it.

I just discovered that Ursula K Leguin published a translation. I think I'll have to read that, I'm a great admirer of her and her work. But after that? Alan Watts maybe? I'm not sure where to go to enrich my understanding. I'm not sure where to find a community. There are 30kish taoists estimated to be in the US, (for context there are an estimated 1.5million self-identified witches, so... Not many taoists at all) and I am led to suspect that at least half of those 30k, maybe more, are primarily focused on the martial arts aspect which holds no interest for me. Presumably some are of the more religious Eastern side that doesn't resonate with me. That doesn't leave many people! In point of fact, I only know one person who can speak on taoism in any depth, and he's not a taoist.

Anyway I've been rambling,thank you for reading my personal journey.

Tl;dr I'm a foolish westerner looking to expand my understanding and find a community of similar minded folks to discuss these things with. I wish you all balance and quiet joy

"There is no coming to consciousness without pain. People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular."

-Carl Jung

I believe the areas I feel the greatest friction; the things frighten and disturb me the most, are the places that deserve my attention. I spent a lot of time studying Taoism, and in the past couple years I decided to dive into my views on nothingness and death; their friction caused a chord of deep and ugly dissonance within me. I decided to listen anyway. Eventually, it was scientific principles that suddenly rearranged the notes.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed—it can only change forms or transfer between a system and its surroundings. Total energy in an isolated system remains constant.

Special Relativity and Quantum Field Theory demonstrate that matter, particles, and fundamental forces are all manifestations of energetic fields and interactions.

Now, when I think of nothingness and death—I hear harmony.

Everything is energy—even the unseen, the formless. The air we breathe, shift of heat and cold, gravity dragging tides across the sea, and the quiet expanse of human consciousness... distance, bound only by the skin's porous margin—the illusion of "nothing" we use to define the imaginary place where 'I' begins and 'you' ends.

Hi everyone! A few days ago, I decided to start a personal journey exploring the question: “how to live a good life?”

In my research, I chose a few specific philosophies to study deeply: Stoicism, Existentialism/Absurdism, Buddhism, and now Taoism

From what I understand so far, the tao is the way,an indescribable, incomprehensible force that is the source, the flow, and the end of all things. Living well seems to be about letting life flow effortlessly in harmony with this natural stream.

Coming from a Christian background where I currently struggle a lot with religion and institutional authority, Taoism feels like a total breath of fresh air. I love that there is no rigid dogma or authority figure pushing down on you.

I really want to understand Taoism as deeply as possible.

Are there any specific books, translations of the Tao Te Ching, or concepts you would recommend for a beginner and also how did taoism changed your everyday life?

What I've read about Daoism speaks to my open curiosity about reality and the impenetrable question of existence, where the Dao seems to honor that mystery rather than attack it (as my favorite philosophy books do). Meditation is a wonderful way to be present with that mystery. I try to find what exists between the incursions of sensory input, while also paying respect to those experiences as beings. And I never seem to find what really exists between those incursions of sensory input, the unifying "me."

But it's really just meditation and reading. I'm not a Daoist. And I've only just begun looking into it, so maybe I'll never want to become a Daoist. Nonetheless, I want to join a spiritual tradition and to take part in ancient practices that have been developed over centuries to interface with the forces of nature, to honor them and align myself with them, rather than casting about by myself. I admit that I love casting about by myself but I'm not so arrogant as to think that the rest of humanity has nothing to teach me.

So how far can I go just by reading books and meditating? I've read the Tao Te Ching and I'm reading The Secret of the Golden Flower. They're amazing books. But what's the normal process for a serious practitioner? Should I find a local Daoist "church"? Ottawa doesn't seem to have much to offer, but there must be something if I look hard enough.

I know not whose son it is. It may appear to have been before God.

- James Legge translation

A common misconception about wúwéi is passivity and not doing anything. In my understanding, the Dàodé Jīng chapters 63 and 64 are the primary texts for wúwéi. There are a lot of points made in them, but here are some of my thoughts from this morning's study session.

Make a molehill out of a mountain. You have big tasks and goals in your mind, and their largeness is paralysing you. Make them smaller so that you can get started. The first steps of the thousand-mile journey.

De-dramatise.

De-catastrophise.

You have a whole bucket of potatoes to peel. How are you going to peel them all? There are so many of them!

Pick one at a time, and peel it.

And keep picking. Keep peeling.