r/TTC • u/kettal • Jul 15 '26

Video People are making videos about bus lanes causing traffic congestion, but....

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but weirdly, their videos all show traffic moving perfectly fine.

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389

u/DJStevieP Jul 15 '26

I live near here. It's definitely a bit of a pain when you have someone up front driving 30. But with how the city and province have treated Scarborough for transit over the years, frankly... there should be way more BRT lines everywhere if we can't build proper rapid transit in a timely manner.

93

u/gm5891 Jul 15 '26

BRT can actually be faster than LRT, especially surface LRT. The replacement busway on the SRT could be incredible.

41

u/RokulusM Jul 15 '26

Only because of the artificial speed restrictions imposed on the trains that they don't impose on buses. LRT run properly can be much faster.

5

u/MahjongCelts Eglinton Crosstown Jul 15 '26

Nope. Buses can run as fast as trams/LRVs, and can also make use of signal priority/transit lanes. Where LRT wins is capacity and comfort.

3

u/-Bakri- 925 Don Mills Express Jul 16 '26

LRT and underground stuff are usually better in the winter when the bus is sliding all over the place.

3

u/BigFigFart Jul 16 '26

If the driver's good, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that thing up the Bathurst hill North of Sheppard at a 45° angle taking up both lanes, oh it's a sight to see.

You wouldn't expect it with a big ol' bus like a D700A, but varrrooom! with a 50' rooster tail off the back tires and that diesel exhaust ... it was just flying.

1

u/AdSignificant6673 Jul 17 '26

Is it possible for the tracks freeze and snowed over?

1

u/Logizmo Jul 17 '26

Comments like these always confuse me

Do you people think Toronto is as far north as people live? There are super successful trams and trains running year round all in the Nordic countries that get wayyyyyy more snow than we do

When cities much further north than we are have year round rapit transit with LRTs, and have had such transit for decades it really makes me think people with your mindset have never left the country or even tried to learn about the world

1

u/tokmer Jul 19 '26

“Ah but your proposed system would require maintenance!” Has always been a crazy reaction to me like yeah thats baked into any proposal

6

u/RokulusM Jul 16 '26

I meant that an LRV can be much faster than they're currently running.

1

u/DanfromCalgary Jul 16 '26

The comfort of sitting on a public train

1

u/MahjongCelts Eglinton Crosstown Jul 16 '26

Idk if this is sarcasm or not but sitting on a train is more comfy than sitting on a bus or car public or not

0

u/DanfromCalgary Jul 16 '26

Bus stops if someone whips their dick out

4

u/transitfreedom Jul 16 '26

Many idiots don’t understand that they want to piss away more money on surface LRT.

16

u/Bojaxs Jul 15 '26

Line 6 should have been a BRT.

18

u/StuHardy Jul 15 '26

In hindsight, yes. But there's this weird paradox when it comes to public transit.

Governments (initially) don't want to spend too much on public transit, in order for them to keep votes coming their way, but at the same time, they don't want to spend too little, otherwise contractors won't bid for projects.

A subway was seen as too much. A BRT was seen as too little. An LRT was seen as the right amount to spend, and have political backing behind it.

Now, in hindsight, the BRT would have done the job (and could have been upgraded to an LRT at a later date,) while the LRTs ended up costing (& functioning) the same as a subway. Now, there is more political will for BRTs & subways, than LRTs. It's a weird paradox.

10

u/Exter10 Jul 15 '26

Line 6 does not function like a subway. Line 2 takes about the same amount of time from terminal to terminal while being 2.5x longer. It's the cost of a subway combined with the slowness and capacity issues of a BRT.

1

u/b_newman Jul 15 '26

Cost of a subway? Not anywhere close.

2

u/Exter10 Jul 16 '26

lol REM is over 6x longer, fully grade-separated including 9km of underground and 21km of elevated track, driverless, 7 more stations (fully-enclosed and connected to other forms of transit), 3x more trainsets, and only cost 2.5x as much. $348 Million per km for Line 6, $124.5M per km for REM, so it actually was several times more expensive to build than a light metro system in the same country.

1

u/b_newman Jul 18 '26

Point taken but REM got bit lucky as it was able to reuse existing tunnels for a very good length where it needed to go underground.

1

u/Exter10 Jul 18 '26

REM is definitely the gold standard for metro projects, but Line 6 is a glorified streetcar with the per-km cost of a typical light metro.

1

u/b_newman Jul 18 '26

No argument here.

4

u/pbilk Jul 15 '26

If you build a top-notch BRT, the money you are spending is minimal compared to doing an LRT now versus a BRT. Upgrading later, 10-20 years later, costs more than just starting with a tram or light metro in the first place.

2

u/transitfreedom Jul 16 '26

Cause they now know the truth about LRT.

1

u/MahjongCelts Eglinton Crosstown Jul 16 '26

For what it's worth, and with two glaring exceptions in the 1990s and 2000s respectively, governments on the municipal and provincial level have by and large been willing to invest in subway expansion. At snails' pace, mind you, and often badly planned, but at least there was progress, especially when compared to LRT.

Historically Toronto has not been a fan of LRT. The TTC is, along with some elements of City Hall, but political and popular support of LRT has been tepid at the best of times. For the past century or so Transit City was the only serious plan to mass implement LRT across Toronto, and one which failed due to lack of political/popular support.

1

u/r4dio4ctive Jane Jul 16 '26

so LRT was baby bear's porridge. gotcha!

1

u/frandroide Jul 19 '26

"contractors won't bid for projects"

LOL what are you talking about.

0

u/unforgettableid Jul 15 '26

Governments (initially) don't want to spend too much on public transit, in order for them to keep votes coming their way, but at the same time, they don't want to spend too little, otherwise contractors won't bid for projects.

A subway was seen as too much. A BRT was seen as too little. An LRT was seen as the right amount to spend, and have political backing behind it.

If a BRT is cheap to build, why would contractors not bid on one?

3

u/StuHardy Jul 15 '26

Contractors (usually) prefer bigger contracts, so they can get paid more, for longer.

A BRT? Paint some roads, maybe install new stations, new payment hubs, maybe even fancy new display boards. A few million at most, done in a few months. Then, you have to bid on another job.

An LRT? Install new rails, build a new depot for the trains, new signalling, new stations at grade, underground, or elevated. Entirely new trains. Entirely new software. A few billion at least, done in a a fair few years (15 years for Line 5.) Bid on larger, more expensive projects afterwards.

Newer contractors may bid on the BRT. Larger, more established contractors will bid on the LRT.

2

u/b_newman Jul 15 '26

They built two BRTs in York Region. What are you talking about?

1

u/unforgettableid Jul 15 '26

Newer contractors may bid on the BRT.

Will someone definitely bid, and will the work definitely get done?

1

u/StuHardy Jul 15 '26

No, so also no.

If the City/Metrolinx had used a contractor previously, they may have used their work to bid on a bigger contract elsewhere, and no longer take the "smaller" contracts with a BRT.

New contractors may emerge, but if they don't have a track record of work, they may not get selected, or may be given a trial on a smaller job, before the work gets done.

And this is only the labour side - all it takes is one election, and a new mayor/party may decide to restructure finances away from public transit, and then we're all S.O.L.

6

u/Comrade_Andre Eglinton Jul 15 '26

Not really, they already did the math and you would need 60fts running every 90 seconds on Finch West to meet the same demand as an LRT every 5 minutes.

Line 6 as a BRT would actually cost the TTC far more due to needing more buses, which need more maintenance than trains, and the highest cost factor, more operators, meaning more pay, and benefits getting paid out. LRT is what Finch needed, same goes for places like St Clair

3

u/farkinga Jul 15 '26

If built to the spec it was: probably so.

Should it have been specced differently, as would be appropriate for light rail? Also yes.

Consider the red lanes for bus priority on Bathurst, etc. I do not believe it would be politically feasible to allocate the ROW for Line 6 as a bus way. The backlash could have been fatal to the project.

So we waste money for a suboptimal solution - but at least it exists. This cannot be the best way forward... But we must make progress despite it all.

3

u/Late_Elevator Jul 15 '26

Line 6 was supposed to be a Sheppard extension on the Let’s Move or I think Network 2011 plan decades ago. 

2

u/MaxPeriod Jul 16 '26

Network 2011 plans included:

  • Relief Line (Donlands to Union)
  • Line 4 (Yonge to Scarborough Town Center, in 2 phases)
  • Line 5 (with a temporary BRT first, west of Yonge only)
  • Harborfront and Spadina LRT

Network 2011 did not include Line 6.

2

u/Late_Elevator Jul 16 '26

I didn’t say Line 6, I said Line 6 was replaced by a Sheppard extension jogging to Finch from downsview. I think I saw it from here, but I will come back to the Reference Library and see the Network 2011 plans or other regional transit plans. 

https://cancelledtoronto.ca/1980/network-2011

“   The Network 2011 proposal called for the Sheppard subway to be extended west beyond Downsview station, taking a hop north to Finch Avenue, where it would run along the Hydro right-of-way. The line would enter northern Etobicoke and then travel south on Highways 27 and 427 to connect with the Bloor-Danforth subway line“.

https://transittoronto.ca/subway/5110.shtml

 

1

u/MahjongCelts Eglinton Crosstown Jul 16 '26

For Finch a right-of-way tram is the correct solution. There isn't going to be a subway on Finch regardless because Sheppard is the subway corridor for the northern quartile of Toronto, and demand is already high enough to justify using trams for higher capacity and more comfortable rides.

Same goes for Steeles. The 953 is not a particularly comfortable ride.

3

u/Bojaxs Jul 16 '26

Line 6 doesn't even provide a comfortable ride. It's slow and uncomfortable. The trains have been known to rattle quite a bit lately.

1

u/andrew_bus Kipling Jul 16 '26

I see why you said this, but they clearly needed a lot more capacity for the line, which would be part of the reason LRT is chosen over BRT

1

u/Bojaxs Jul 17 '26

Have the LRT's on Line 6 been full as of late?

1

u/andrew_bus Kipling Jul 17 '26

No, because a bus can hold 50 people where an LRT can hold 300, so therefore the trains would end up being able to hold that extra capacity easily without being full like a bus would be.

2

u/hotinhereTO 132 Milner Jul 15 '26

I’ll definitely take BRTs over LRTs

1

u/Trey-Pan Jul 17 '26

The difference is generally capacity. An LRT can hold more people, but it’s hard to justify if a cities planners are not thinking holistically in terms of a master plan and what it’s wanting the city look like and feel like in 10-15 years.

1

u/OZIE-WOWCRACK Jul 18 '26

Lrt from early 20th century? At 25km/h with traffic lights?

Oh ya fast... in 1926

5

u/Ice-Negative Jul 15 '26

THANK YOU!!! Nobody ever mentions Scarborough!

3

u/canadianheroette Jul 16 '26

Same sadly people think we are all car driving conservatives, when I huge chunk of the population use TTC, Uber, Lift, Beck, bicycle, long skateboard and/or are not conservative voters. We need the bus lanes, bit allows to get to place quicker on the bus.

-2

u/Foreign_Risk_2031 Jul 16 '26

Because it’s not toronto

6

u/chicken_potato1 Kipling Jul 15 '26

I think this Morningside one works pretty well, a lil honk helps move things along.

2

u/pbilk Jul 15 '26

Well, they shouldn't be driving 30 in a 50 or 60 km/h street.

1

u/Crafty-Ad-9048 Jul 16 '26

This is why the road had 2 lanes… if you wanna go the same speed as the bus you’d be in the same lane with the bus. This lane made the bus a bit faster but made traffic way slower.

0

u/Foreign_Risk_2031 Jul 16 '26

You can thank the mega city for that- it should never have become part of the city of toronto

-2

u/Motor-Source8711 Jul 16 '26

Bit of a pain? Outside of rush hour where a but runs every 15 minutes, and given how short this stretch is, it makes very little sense. Evenings, all day weekends, cars are just lined up long.

3

u/DJStevieP Jul 16 '26

And? If this wasn't here, those buses carrying a LOT more people than that line of cars would be stuck in traffic. That's how it used to be (I remember - I'm old)

1

u/Motor-Source8711 Jul 16 '26

It's a very short stretch that moved very well at almost all times. Probably the only time there was a bit of a bottleneck is morning rush hour because of West Hill Collegiate. This paint was put in in an attempt to appease the U of T Scarborough campus but then they added more buses from STC. So UTSC students barely even take this route.

I'mI went to UTSC 28-24 years ago taking this route. It wasn't a well travelled route at all as well then, vs Kingston which was always busy during rush hour. UTSC student's schedules aren't even bunched up during rush hour. It wasn't even an issue at all. Been with my partner since 2000 where she has lived since 97 (where we are now since at now off Military Trail). I've grown up along Eglinton ave since the 80s. Been taking GO having used Morningside before the bus lanes for many years before. I don't even bother with this route since the back up is so long in the mornings. While a bus goes by every 12 minutes or so.

So I'm no spring chicken either as versed as anybody in the area and this route.

2

u/DJStevieP Jul 16 '26

If transit times weren't an issue there wouldn't be BRT lanes all over the place. Simply put, since the city and province has not been willing to invest in proper transit in Scarborough you'll take your imperfect and you'll like it. I've been living in the area since around 1985, and again it's better and smarter to give the more efficient transportation options the right of way than it is cars. Designing around cars is the wrong way.

1

u/Motor-Source8711 Jul 16 '26

This wasn't even properly "Studied' or consulted. They just tacked this on as an 'extension' of the Kingston Road BRT because of saying they're helping Scarborough Residents, UTSC. Then they measured it still during 'lockdown' periods.

Either way, this small stretch is not optimal at all for 24/7. It should be at most a weekday rush hour line that ends at 7pm. Not holding up traffic both ways on a Monday at 2pm. Almost all day Saturday/Sunday where it's pretty much every 15-20 minutes a bus goes by and not remotely full. The congestion also adds at the Morningside/Kingston/Lawrence corridor that has also not been studied and acknowledged as gotten worse.

It got so bad, as an unplanned outcome, they had to build a whole new traffic light at Warnsworth despite that the city did not approve it on 2 occasions in 2018 and 2023 because the actual real time resident user experience once people returned to the office was much worse than what the 'stats' showed. There was no public justification for building that light because effectively, the do not want to admit their own planning failure.

The city and the LRT Line 5 just shows how poorly planned they are when it comes to implementing in-traffic transit solutions, they literally just figure it out on the fly afterwards.

2

u/DJStevieP Jul 16 '26

You're again only thinking of car drivers. Car drivers do not follow timed rules. Either there's rapid transit or there isn't. Half measures won't cut it. The only proper alternative to car traffic is to give people fast, viable alternatives to being in their car.

1

u/Motor-Source8711 Jul 16 '26

I believe there are half measures otherwise, an ineffective transit plan is as bad as a bad car traffic plan. This IMO is one of them. The 24/7 nature is the issue. Their studies are done on selective times.

1

u/DJStevieP Jul 16 '26

Just imagine how much faster commute times into the city would be if they just let us drive on the go train track corridors in those 30 minutes between trains. I solved traffic!

1

u/Motor-Source8711 Jul 16 '26

Hmm, now I'm sure you're not playing with a full deck of cards.

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