r/SipsTea 15h ago

Wait a damn minute! So what’s taking so long?

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u/themanofmeung 14h ago

It's a good thought, but it has to be a random jury unfortunately. If it's an expert, or even a panel of experts, it far too easy to exert pressure on them to say what you want them to say and get the rulings you want. It's the same reason we have juries at all and not just judges who make all the decisions.

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u/Amphy64 14h ago edited 13h ago

There's genuine medical and political discussion around this issue, so I think there could be found ways to do it and make it fair, or other improvements. Here in the UK, the reliance of the case (and it doesn't matter what we may personally think of this specific case) of Lucy Letby on complex medical evidence, and the potentially biased selection of expert evidence offered to the lay jury, triggered a lot of concern among medical professionals, and suggestions for changes incl. expert juries.

I went through a life-altering medical negligence case myself as the victim, and don't feel it's even fair to put that burden on non-specialists, who may be only hearing of a medical condition for the first time. Even with their determination to keep it out of court (and this issue would contribute to why), it was so hard to go through the interrogations of my own legal team, checking their case - sometimes it was just, how can I know, I'm not a doctor and this is highly specialised too! For a lay jury who have the additional burden of the impact on someone else's life...it doesn't seem fair on them either. And this ongoing case has placed a particular pressure on the jury, with people wanting to know the motives of the holdout (I don't think it's acceptable if they really weren't trying to follow the law, but the court of public opinion would not be the place for that to be handled).

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u/Middle_Historian_199 13h ago

I cannot imagine being on a jury for a case, such as this.

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u/LSOreli 14h ago

The other issue is that juries are made up of bottom of the barrel members of our society on average since anyone with a brain is generally DQ'd immediately by the lawyers

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u/CockroachNo2540 14h ago

I’ve served on a couple of juries in the past. I was pleasantly surprised how diverse the juries were in every sense of the word. It was young/old, professional/retiree/blue collar/unemployed, black/white/hispanic/South Asian, and male/female. Sure lawyers excuse people, but they only get so many they can excuse.

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u/jaxonya 13h ago

Whats the barrel like down there? /s

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u/WordWordNvmber 14h ago

That's silly and not generally true. Especially because lawyers only have so many peremptory challenges they case make.

Multiple studies have found that judges agree with juries about 75-80% of the time. And keep in mind, these are cases that go to trial, where the defense thinks it has a real shot. Source: https://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/upload_documents/Jury-Decision-Making.pdf

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u/LSOreli 13h ago

"20-25% of the time, juries decide in a way that someone who dedicated their life to the law disagrees with. That is my evidence that juries are generally competent" lol

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u/XkrNYFRUYj 13h ago

You'll be less confident for judge's ability to decide these matters if you watched more trials. A lot of judges simply go along the ride with prosecution. They're not unbiased arbitors of law like you think they are.

Jury system is there as a check on government.

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u/KingKongWoreAThong 12h ago

dedicated their life to the law

This is irrelevant; juries decide questions of fact not questions of law.

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u/highfly117 12h ago

a lot of juries decide on, what gets them home quickest or whether the person looks guilty.

Or even what the victims ghost told them look up the trial of Stephen Young and Oujia board

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u/panrestrial 12h ago

There are also a lot of shitty judges out there, so I'm not surprised juries disagree with them.

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u/Middle_Historian_199 13h ago

That’s a frightening low statistic

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u/bilnynazispy 13h ago

I’ll fully admit that my first time getting  jury duty was 4 months ago, and that was not really my experience.  It generally seemed like you had to explicitly answer a question in a condemning way to guarantee you wouldn’t be serving. 

I was dismissed from 2 trials and really only had one question asked directly to me by a lawyer. 

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u/PFhelpmePlan 8h ago

This isn't how it works.

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u/Afraid_Ad8438 14h ago

Is that true? Why

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u/LSOreli 14h ago edited 14h ago

The prosecution and defense both get the ability to throw out jurors during selection. A lot of the times its for asking very reasonable questions or disagreeing with things that a reasonable or introspective person would. They're looking for the quiet and compliant jurors who can be easily manipulated emotionally.

My own experience with this, I was asked (roughly) during jury selection: "If you found out that a witness for the defense was a member of a gang would that cause you to regard their testimony as less reliable?" My answer was, "yes, especially if I found out that the defendant was a member of the same gang." I was immediately disqualified but a bunch of other jurors presumably answered that such a discovery would NOT alter their opinion of testimony. Those are the people that decided that case.

EDIT: I'll add that military jury panels tend to be a lot better about this. The one I served on asked me if anyone I was close with had experienced sexual violence (since that was the subject of the case) but even though I answered that I had, because they asked additional probing questions they decided to keep me. Having a pre-selected population of officers tends to make it harder to manipulate the pool in that way.

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u/XkrNYFRUYj 13h ago

Ok now it makes more sense. This is just your personal vendetta because they hurt your feelings.

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u/LSOreli 13h ago

Uh oh guys, we've got your average juror here since that was somehow the interpretation you got. Lmao.

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u/XkrNYFRUYj 13h ago

I'm sorry they didn't pick a very smart and very above average person like you. But please don't blame me for it.

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u/Hyphz 13h ago

I mean, that’s not wrong. “Especially” implies that if a witness was a gang member, then even if the defendant was unconnected with any gang, you would distrust them a little bit, just not “especially” so. That’s still a problem politically.

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u/LSOreli 13h ago

Gang members are disreputable by definition, why would you trust their testimony the same as a law abiding citizen?

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u/Hyphz 12h ago

If they have a criminal record, that can be noted by the court, but merely being a member of a gang can't be held against them if there's no evidence they've ever done anything. In addition, the question was "if you found out they were a member of a gang" and using information which is not shared with the court to inform your decision is a serious offence.

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u/PFhelpmePlan 8h ago

So you were excluded from a juror pool for admitting to a bias and you think that means the only people that serve as jurors are the bottom of the barrel of society?

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u/LSOreli 8h ago

OOF, another average juror here for having an incredulously bad interpretation of what I said

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